Karen Chance Fans discussion
This topic is about
Claimed by Shadow
The Cassie Books
>
Claimed By Shadow (Cassandra Palmer #2)
Aileen wrote: "It made me very sad though, when she talked about how she didn't even care if he loved her back. ..." Wait, really? I don't remember that! When does she say that?
@Lannister That's the main sticking point for me. Why get pregnant then? Now if it was any author I'd just say Artemis got pregnant then because it was convenient for the plot. But KC never does things just because, so there is definitely some kind of reason. Hopefully TtS will go a long way to clear that up.
Bell, Cassie says that when she's in the Senate's chamber/conference room where the Consul used a null to trap Cassie, while they tortured Tomas. Well, Cassie doesn't say it, she thinks it to herself. And while part of it comes from the geis, it also comes from the fact that Cassie has lived with vamps for most of her life, and this becomes even more appparent in EtN, especially before Pritkin opens up to her and tells her about him. She says that becaue she has lived with the vamps, she has learned how they think, and while on her own she kept everyone, except Tammy away, even Tomas, before she knew he was a vamp.As for Cassie's reaction to incubi in this book-Cassanova tried to seduce her so he would distract her from getting the info about Tonys whereabouts, and Chavez introduced himself to her rather hurriedly because he remembered her from his past(but at this point, the definition of his name was still in Cassies future) and he was turning on the charm so that he would coax her into helping him. But Pritkin wasn't using his incubi abilities on her-hence the pain. Remember, he can bypass it if he wants-that was what Rosier was tryin to get Pritkin to do in EtN. Of course, Pritkin says the geis reacted that strongly because he is very powerful, but Macs initial reasoning is much more likely-the attraction between Cassie and Pritkin was bigger and, I believe, natural and unavoidable. Hence the geis flaring that much.
Claire, I think she knew Cassie was her daughter when she saw her in HtM. I know this doesn't really answer the question, what I'm trying to say is that we don't know for sure. But, why leave the Pythian court and not become Pythia? Why run from a relatively safe place? I know the Spartoi were able to follow her around wherever and whenever she shifted, but how did they manage to do that? And after being removed as an heir, how long did the power remain with her?
@Scarlet I agree with you that the geis flaring was definitely part of a mutual attraction.I also think that Artemis recognized her in HtM. Are you saying that Artemis got pregnant because she saw Cassie and knew she was supposed to have a daughter?
The spartoi attached a spell to her that let them follow her around. Something about it being a piggyback on her power.
I think that Artemis DEFINITELY recognized her. I have a feeling Artemis had visions of her before she met and/or got pregnant with her.And when I was talking about all the incubus' I meant that ONLY incubus's had any reaction. Mac didn't have ANY, and I know that Casanova was putting the moves on her, but I also meant CASSIE'S reaction to them as well, since she had absolutely no reaction to Mac, but had one to all incubus' around her.
Well, I think the geis requires mutual attraction for it to flare so Mac is out. But you're right, Cassie did react strongly to the incubi around her. That was our first clue that Pritkin wasn't your average war mage. Sneaky KC.
I think Cassie actually said something about not having a powerful reaction to the incubus Chavez, and Mac put it down to a lack of interest on his part (which we later learn is because he's interested in Drac - I guess Cassie wasn't evil or male enough for him! lol)
Lol he did say when he "met" her he was "quite perverse." And isn't KC sneaky????? Sneaking that in, I bet very few people noticed that before we found out about Pritkin, since she isn't around a LOT of men, mainly just Casanova and Chavez, and most people might think that it was just a mutual attraction between Pritkin and Cassie instead of his incubus side coming out!!!! Or something...reacting??
Scarlet wrote: "Bell, Cassie says that when she's in the Senate's chamber/conference room where the Consul used a null to trap Cassie, while they tortured Tomas. Well, Cassie doesn't say it, she thinks it to herse..."Thanks, Scarlet, I have to go back and read that part again!
I love how KC tied in Drac getting loose with the first Dory book. It was so well done!
What I find interesting is how Mircea never mentions to Cassie about Drac getting loose and the trouble involved in going after him. (view spoiler) Mircea must know that Cassie is the one who released Drac. So here's more evidence of his general modus operandi, to not give out any information to Cassie if it's not necessary, and to shield her from anything unpleasant that he's involved in -- even when she's the one who caused it in the first place. I wonder how Cassie would react if she knew what resulted from her losing Drac's box, and what she would think of Mircea's not telling her about that. Would she be mad? Grateful? Would it make her re-evaluate the merits of his over-protectiveness?
I think Cassie deserves to know the results of her actions. Ultimately, she shouldn't have been stealing stuff from a vamp stronghold to start with, so I don't think it's wrong to tell her the results of her actions in case she gets any ideas about trying something similar again.In my attempts to be fair to Mircea, do you think he might actually have been protecting her from any vampire retribution? It's stated several times that vamps don't care about intent, only results. So whilst Cassie didn't intend to set Drac free, that was the direct result of her actions. Drac doesn't seem to have many fans amongst senior vampires and maybe someone might have wanted Cassie held accountable. But Mircea perhaps sidestepped that by taking it all on himself.
That's the charitable explanation. The more likely one is Mircea's usual 'need to know' policy. But I do think he should have sat Cassie down and told her what happened.
I think it's some of both. What he should do aside, it's completely consistent with Mircea's nature to keep things from her in a misguided effort to protect her and keep his own secrets. But also the Consul surely knew that Cassie was the one who freed Drac, and I'm sure that if Mircea had used Senate resources to deal with it, it would have drawn the Consul's attention to Cassie's wrongdoing. (Or maybe Mircea's for putting her in a position where she was able to do it? -- after all, the Consul and most of the vampires consider Cassie one of Mircea's people.) So that explains why Mircea sent out his daughter and L-C to deal with Drac; there were multiple incentives for him to keep it all in the family. But what I think is really interesting is the fact that he was willing to send Dory out after Drac considering what he did to her the last time. He must have had a surprising degree of confidence in her abilities (perhaps because he knows Dorina so well -- I love that part early in Fury's Kiss where he tries to warn L-C how crafty and powerful Dory's vampire half / alter-ego is) to send his after Drac again.
I think the fact that Dory was involved is why he didn't say anything. ALSO, I think he didn't intend for her to actually DEAL with him, only track him. NO WAY would he put her in his actual path where she could get hurt or killed. No matter what else he is or does, Mircea loves Dory more than anything else, and I honestly could see him giving up his senate position for her. I sometimes think the only reason he's on it is that it gives him WAY more leverage in the vamp world to do what he wants...like keep her living. I think that because he knew Dory would be involved he did everything possible to keep Cassie out of it, even handcuffing her to a couch. Though it is still really funny how he goes through so much to keep her out of things only to have her get right in the middle of everything.
Jeez, the idea of someone handcuffing me to a couch 'for my own good' absolutely boils my blood!! Who the f*** is Mircea to decide these things? For me, this just reiterates that Mircea views Cassie like a child who isn't capable of making decisions on her own.I do find Mircea's actions in sending Dory after Drac to be a little odd. I agree that Mircea considers Dory to be tough and capable but, in his shoes, there's no way I'd put my daughter anywhere near him especially after what happened the last time. Mircea is lucky that Drac didn't just kill Dory on sight. The only reason he didn't was because he thought Dory hated Mircea as much as he did. That was a pretty big gamble on Mircea's part, with his daughter's life on the line.
I think Mircea uses people. I don't think for a minute that he wanted anything to happen to Dory, but it's hard for me to square a loving father with one who would send his child against an absolute psycho who almost killed her in the past. Dory even admits that she's afraid of Drac, and kudos to her for conquering her fear. But Mircea doesn't consider her fears, only that he has a family problem that must be dealt with.
The handcuff thing- I didn't find it cute and/or funny on my first read. I've come to accept his nature more since then and take his actions in stride the way Cassie always seems to but originally it pissed me off- I didn't understand how Cassie could be attracted to someone who obviously lacks respect for her.Although his behavior is often shrugged off by the fact "Vamps will be vamps!", I don't think that should cut it anymore. It shouldn't be okay for him to treat her like that because it's what is expected. Cassie's better than that.
I don't like that he thinks it his place to handle things, and that she should just obey him. The difference between him and other alpha males in other books [e.g Curran- Kate Daniels series and Ethan- Chicagoland Vamps] is that when he makes Cassie a prisoner in her own home / lies to her about the coronation ceremony, I think he fully expects to get away with it.
A huge part of their dysfunction is based on the power imbalance in earlier books- Mircea is constantly abusing his position of power. As the books progress Cassie's power is growing- and it's going to be a question of whether Mircea can adapt to her being as powerful/ more powerful than him.
Maybe once he learns how strong, loyal and resilient Cassie is he'll start to respect her, but maybe by then it'll be too late. I mean, Pritkin's already there :D
In regards to Dory while I completely agree with that, there's the element where we see that at least Mircea trusts and respects Dory enough to be confident that she'll succeed. That's more than can be said about his wife.
Okay, so I finished my reread (I claim the slowness on classes and meeting and general craziness of the first week) and I had forgotten that Agnes sacrificed herself to take out Myra. It made me so sad, since I had forgotten she did that big gesture for Cassie, mainly because Cassie goes back and sees her. ALSO, forgot that Pritkin pledges to protect her. Felt very...knight like. It was kind of cool. It ALSO cracked me up that the LAST Herophile was a complete nutter. Made me laugh, since I think Cassie and Herophile VI would get along fabulously. And like I said before, I honestly do NOT think Dory was supposed to actually come into contact with Drac. From Mircea's reaction AND everyone elses, I have a feeling she was never supposed to get close enough for him to carve her up. I am not entirely positive if what happened to Dory happened prior to the handcuffing to a couch thing, but if it did...while I don't agree with Mircea's methods, I understand where he's coming from. Cassie would not have survived what Drac did to Dory, and even though she can shift, I don't think that was going through his head at the time, I think the fact that something terrible had just happened to his daughter and for all he knew it could happen to Cassie as well, especially if Drac knew about Cassie, which would be easy to figure out, so he worried that if she wasn't somewhere she couldn't run away, straight into Drac, she would be killed by him.
@Aileen Don't feel bad, I've been distracted and haven't finished yet either. I'll probably do that tonight or tomorrow.Eeeeeeh I loved the part were Pritkin pledged to protect her. Are you guys sensing a theme here?
I think part of it is that scene with Marco I mentioned earlier in a different thread. Where Marco explains that Mircea's feeling scared for the first time in a long time. I'd imagine an all-powerful master vamp feeling helpless can make them do some crazy things.
Yes, yes indeed, he doesn't know how to handle the feelings.And I'm glad I'm not the only one who's classes are making it hard to read...
I keep getting distracted! Gah
Mod
And I really don't like the rape scene in the woods... my least favorite scene in the entire series!
Yeah I finally finished the book last night. I still want to stuff Radella into a drawer somewhere.
Lol, Claire. Radella was rather aggravating.
A dirty sock drawer.
Yeah...that scene was...intense, and hard to read sometimes. I don't know if I would have kept reading the series if she hadn't gone back in time and had it not happen...I still feel really bad about Mac though...
Cassie has had to deal with a LOT of shit.
She does, and she does it all while still being awesome, even shoeless, drenched in odd things, with rat in her hair, and one time even as a dude.
Just started a reread.. Is there a break between TTD and C? In TTD Cassie is 17 when she pairs up with Billie Jo; she leaves Tony's for the first time when she is 14, returns, builds a case against Tony and then is on the run for 3 years.In TTD she describes herself as an adult trying to destroy Tony. in CBS when she discusses the geis with Cassanova'I'll be 24 tomorrow.'
He shrugged 'well there you have it. For roughly half your life someone has owned you.'
I''ve always seen her as 24 and KCs plot lines always seem to happen in a matter of hours or days, but with a gap the TTD ending makes more sense - or was that simply wishful thinking on her part.
After first running away at 14, Cassie returns to Tony at 17 and spends two or three years amassing evidence against him. At age 20 she hits the road again. When TtD begins she is not quite 24.
There's hardly any time at all between TtD and CbS. I think it's maybe a couple of weeks or thereabouts.The first time she ran away, Cassie was gone for three years. It said she saw a vision of her parents being killed then left that day. Quote from the book ...
Childhood pretty much ended for me that night. I'd run away an hour later, as soon as dawn came and all good little vampires were in their safe rooms. I'd been gone three years.
So if she were 14 then, she would have been 17 when she returned. She says of Tony ...
It took three very long years to amass enough proof to destroy Tony's operation through the human justice system.
This would take Cassie from age 17 to 20 approx, before she took off again.
At the beginning of TtD she's been on the run for another three years roughly. Right at the start, Cassie talks about her gun and says "After more than three years of relative safety". She also mentions later a bag she had for storing a gun, that she bought on the advice of the FBI guy "almost four years ago". So this would take her up to the tail end of age 23, just in time to turn 24 in CbS. :)
It's interesting how that whole plotline about Casanova's background is developed. I can't entirely remember my initial reactions when I first read the book, but I don't think I realised just how significant Casanova's behaviour was.I've always been a bit on the fence about Casanova. Sometimes he's amusing and other times he's a giant pain that I'd enjoy punching. But I'm really looking forward to seeing where his story goes in the next book.
I totally missed it. I thought it was all about Cassie. I'm now wondering whether he reported home that Cassie wasn't good for Pritkin's health and therefore triggers (view spoiler)
I believe that the Demon Council originally wanted to kill Pritkin, because without his knowledge, Cassie wouldn't be able to do damage to them, Pythia or no(this was before they thought she would go back in time, team up with her mother Artemis to destroy them). Also, Pritkin is very powerful magically(cause genetics are weird and he can definitely go against other demons even if he's only half, he has a compilation of human, fey, and druid magic at his fingertips), and I believe that's why either Rosier foresaw the Council wanting to kill Pritkin, and he decided to go ahead and kill Cassie(in EtN), or he was forced to take care of the problem by the Council themselves.
I have a feeling that Rosier has more than just Casanova spying on Pritkin. I have a feeling that all the incubus, except one notable one, spies on Cassie and Pritkin for Rosier. After the events in TtS, things about Rosier have come into a new light, but I REALLY think that until he enters in EtN, he didn't think Cassie was SUCH a threat that Pritkin wouldn't save himself if he really did get hurt...but then...I think Rosier realized that he may need to push his son, by riding himself of distractions and the possible death of his son. I think Rosier sees Cassie as a main reason Pritkin hasn't returned with his father. Which sucks, because it's obviously not true, but still, also a little nice that Rosier does actually seem to care so much.
@Aileen, rereading Embrace the Night now and I definitely agree with you with regards to spying, Casanova and the incubi. With hindsight Casanova gives quite a lot away not to mention (view spoiler)
Has anyone else started their re-read of this one yet? I'm about halfway through, reading about Cassie's first time working with Pritkin, and loving how the geis reacts to Cassie and Pritkin barely touching due to their "strong mutual attraction" (according to Pritkin's buddy Mac). ;)Also remembering how confusing trying to keep track of all this time-travel is...
I've started already and I'm at the bit where they just arrived in Faerie. That scene with Pritkin/Cassie & the geis at Mac's shop was hilarious. It's the way they won't look at each other!!I know I enjoy bashing Mircea, but credit where credit is due. He could have held onto Cassie when she arrives at MAGIC to rescue Tomas. Instead, he willingly let her go, even though it caused him incredible suffering. That was very trusting of him.
What do you all think about Cassie's decision to rescue Tomas? OK, it worked out in the end, but was it generous and heroic of her to attempt it, or was it bloody stupid? Did Tomas deserve to be rescued, after selling out the Senate to the Black Circle and the enemies they're fighting in the war?
It was stupid and completely spoiled their chance for a stealthy ebtrance into Faerie. And, no, Tomas didn't deserve to survive betraying the Senate and allying himself with the enemies of the Senate, the Circle, other supernaturals and all humans.
Cassie justified it, because no one had asked her permission to punish him. Girl just doesn't know when to take a stand. The Senate had every right to punish one of their own.
Cassie justified it, because no one had asked her permission to punish him. Girl just doesn't know when to take a stand. The Senate had every right to punish one of their own.
I find it kinda hard to justify Cassie's actions too. I get that she was very fond of Tomas after living with him for six months, but she spent half of TtD bitching about how he'd been lying to her all that time and how she betrayed she felt. And to say the Senate needs to ask her because she's Pythia? That's ... actually quite arrogant, which isn't something I would normally say about Cassie. The Senate don't need her permission for anything, as Cassie should know well. She says herself in TtD that they have final say on vamp law. Also, MAGIC was HQ to many supernaturals, so even if the Senate didn't want him dead, the Silver Circle might have demanded it.I do understand the method of punishment (rightly) bothered Cassie (i.e. unleashing Jack on Tomas) but I still feel Tomas was so wrong in what he did, that the Senate was more than within its rights to demand an execution. Cassie said that every Senate in the world was after Rasputin and Tony, as they were declared outlaws, yet she expects a collaborator to be spared death? Did anyone die in the attack on MAGIC? I don't recall if it says anywhere, but it's quite probable at least a mage or two snuffed it. Where's her sympathy for them and their families?
It gets harder because we know Tomas isn't really evil and he all he wanted was to take out Alejandro, which is a pretty worthwhile cause, but that can't excuse treachery. Day of the Dead spoilers (view spoiler)
That is a bit incompatible with Tomas' reasoning in this book. He told Cassie that his promised reward would be the SA consulship and to have Cassie for himself.
But in Day of the Dead, he kills Alejandro without becoming Consul afterward? So he won't become corrupted? Is this in any way logical, or is it a mistake by KC?
I grant that anyone can change his or her mind. (English needs a multiple-sexual pronoun here. Hizzer might work.) If so, the thought process should have been explained.
But in Day of the Dead, he kills Alejandro without becoming Consul afterward? So he won't become corrupted? Is this in any way logical, or is it a mistake by KC?
I grant that anyone can change his or her mind. (English needs a multiple-sexual pronoun here. Hizzer might work.) If so, the thought process should have been explained.
Sorry about the DoftD spoiler. My tablet doesn't have the greater than and lesser than characters.
I assumed Tomas's trip to Faerie impacted his thinking. He had a while away from vamp politics and LC, so I guess he spent it thinking about everything that had happened and the choices he made. He never wavered about killing Alejandro, but I guess he realised that being a leader wasn't for him. I don't think it's a mistake from KC, but I agree we need more of his thought process to fully understand. It's downright bizarre to go from becoming a new Consul (and therefore untouchable by all the other senates) to spending the rest of your days on the run with a band of mercenaries. I think if he became Consul, he'd be off the hook for his treachery (thought I'm not 100% certain about this), but his decisions in DotD make him an outlaw forever. It's hard to understand that. If he doesn't like vamp society, here's his opportunity to change it.However, KC did say we'd be seeing Tomas again, so maybe we shouldn't write off that whole 'being consul' thing just yet.
I never understood Cassie's reasoning for rescuing Tomas, either. He pretty much deserved to be executed. I've only ever read DotD once, so I'd forgotten that's what he did at the end of it. It seems odd that that was the decision he made in the end. I really do wonder what capacity we'll be seeing him in again. I assume he won't be on the opposing side, but who knows? Whenever he does show up again, I'm guessing it'll be pretty sudden.I actually started my re-read on Friday and just kept going, so I'm already a bit over half-way done with CtD already. =D
Maybe Tomas and his merry band arrive just in time to win the war, like Gandalf riding in with an army during Lord of the Rings LOL! I'm puzzled by the timeline more than anything. The whole Cassie series has covered about four months, give or take, and we're now in August in the books. DotD takes place at the end of October, so it's roughly two months ahead. Are we going to have another two or three books to cover this period, or is Cassie going to take a time-out somewhere, like in Faerie or the Demon Realm, to lose time that way. Although ... I suppose there's nothing to stop KC jumping forward a few weeks and have Cassie or Dory thinking about how it had been nothing but war planning for the past month.
I'm probably going to fall behind in my reread since I don't think I'll get much done while I'm away. If I have to, I'll skip a book. HtM and, especially, TtS are the two must-reads for me.
I think I would die if that happened. Tomas shows up to steal all the glory.I'm wondering about the timeline, too. That novella is pretty ahead on things and Cassie and Dory's storylines are only just about to finally meet up. I keep forgetting all of the time just how little time has actually passed since the start of the story. How many books would we need to catch up to where Tomas is time-wise?
Tomas is a survivor, no doubt. He does not seem to be the brightest bulb in the chandelier, though. Witthout a second's pause, Cassie explained the fallacy. No way could he protect her from the Gods' wrath and whoever else would demand her death.
His capacity for bad decisions rivals Cassie's!
His capacity for bad decisions rivals Cassie's!
I've unfortunately already consumed my way through both CBS and ETN. Currently trying to hold myself off starting Curse the Dawn. It's a battle I am losing lol.¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Mello ❣ Illium ✮Harry✮ ☀Myrnin☀ Torin wrote: "I actually started my re-read on Friday and just kept going, so I'm already a bit over half-way done with CtD already."
I'm relieved to see I'm not the only one! XD
I'm going to add my voice to the choir of us saying 'I don't know wtf Cassie was doing saving Tomas'. I remember almost banging my head against the book when she ruined a perfectly good chance to tiptoe into Faerie to save Tomas. But then I stopped for a moment and thought to myself, this feeling is familiar. And then I remembered a small 13 year old version of me reading the Lord of the Rings and banging my small head against the book when Frodo, just like Bilbo before him, didn't kill Gollum (or rather didn't let Sam kill him). And then Gollum ends up helping.
And that's what I think happens here, in part. Cassie saves Tomas's life and in return, he helps by completing the pythian ritual. And because it's with Tomas rather than Mircea, the geis doesn't get completed and she doesn't end up as Mircea's slave, or vice versa. I can't recall exactly when the geis got doubled but I think it already was by that point.
Also does anyone find it weird how Cassie, a girl who spent her formative years at a vampire court and who confessed to being as good as a vampire herself, consistently finds it difficult to accept death as a punishment? She upholds this almost 'all life is sacred' mentality throughout the early books; she even admits she may be incapable of pulling the trigger on Tony, and when she shoots a dark mage in self defense in ETN she feels pretty bummed out about it. This duality is something I've always found intriguing about Cassie's personality, but maybe it's a product of her upbringing conflicting with some innate quality in Cassie (her mother's genetic influence perhaps?). In any case, I can sort of feel that part of Cassie at work when she wants to save Tomas ("it was pity that stayed Bilbo's hand"), so for me that decision wasn't completely unexpected.
In short, I still don't agree with Cassie saving Tomas (it was stupid), but it had results. And Tomas could pop up to save the day some time in the future. Like Gollum.
Sigh. I should have done my english lit dissertation on cassie palmer.
You know what I still wonder? Which mage cast the almighty geis? Have we met him already? Where is he now?I would also like to draw everyone's attention to this sentence from the hilarious scene in Mac's tattoo parlour, "Casanova was likely somewhat attracted to you". HAHAHAHAHA. Anyone want to take a wild guess if that's still true XD?
As a sidenote, there is a part in ETN (yup I'm jumping ahead a little, forgive me) that slightly conflicts with what Mac says regarding the geis and its reaction to Pritkin. Even though Mac theorises that it's because of the strength of mutual attraction, Pritkin later says, in what I assume was a moment of self-hatred "Am I [human]? Have you never wondered why your geis reacts so much stronger to me than to anyone else, sees me as so much more of a threat?" He says this as part of his anti-demon tirade and yet Casanova and Chavez (two incubi themselves) did not have as strong a reaction from the geis as Pritkin. Pritkin and Cassie are so full of self-denial lol.
This was the generally believed story until Cassie figured out who her mother was. Then they found the letters that were in the suitcase that Roger carried around in Hunt the Moon which showed they'd been writing to each other for years.
What I think might have happened is that they'd known each other for who knows how long (could be centuries??), but when Artemis joined the Pythian Court they naturally had to be apart and so they started writing to each other. Roger visited the Pythian Court for Tony (I think?) so I'm guessing they got cosy with each other after having been apart for so long, which led to Artemis getting pregnant (though why now, after so long, I have no clue. That seems odd and inconsistent). But, once she was pregnant, she obviously couldn't continue as Pythian heir, so she left and this was the story that was put out.
That's my belief on how the sequence of events played out.