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REALLY Bad reviews - how do you cope?
Jacqueline wrote: "The "Right" Way:He had to buy more cigarettes immediately. He took his coat from behind the door and stepped out into the night. He heard the patter of water falling from the trees before he fel..."
I'll put a book down if it has too much exposition, but I'd count description, as in the first example, as telling too. Here's to including the background in the story - simply.
Jadqueline and Laura - heartfelt agreement from me! I'm currently procrastinating about cutting 60,000 words from my W.I.P. (I have a feeling I've moaned about this before! Maybe it was to another group...?)If I leap into the action from the beginning as is expected in modern novels, I have to delete all the scene setting which lets the reader know what my heroine's about, and somehow squeeze it in later, bit by bit. A reader at one site said she hated flashbacks, but how on earth else is one to convey some quite complicated info without manufactured scenes, which allow the rule of "show don't tell" but don't do it the simplest way?
I also need to delete the perfectly sensible last few chapters and instead deliver (to me) a contrived but shorter conclusion.
I know people are time-poor these days, but surely they could savour a slightly longer book? Instead they'll rip through it and post criticisms re "non-believable".
End of vent!
Monya (aka Mary) Clayton
Cut 60,000 words? That sounds silly - how many words total, and why is so much going? Sounds like you are trying to fit a schooner into a pot there, and I like the odd schooner...Please don't tell me you are trying to turn a good book into a formula romance.
Isn't the word count more about the price readers are willing to pay vs the cost of producing the print copy? If you go direct to ebook, that's not really an issue. As long as you're not cluttering the book with description and irrelevant detail (and exposition), readers would probably prefer to get a larger book for the same price. Then, when you've proven it will sell, print publishers will be more interested in it as is.Of course, I could be wrong. I've said before that I get bored of travel stories at about 250 pages and no matter how well it's written, I want it to finish once I reach that point.
Murray, in my experience your point about pages and production costs is not really valid. As printing gets more efficient, the fraction of the retail price represented by production costs drops to 10% and less. Much of that is fixed cost, so a 300 page book does not cost 50% more than a 200 page one. More like 10-20% more.My limited experience of epublishers is that they also get very nervous if a book exceeds 100,000 words - around 300 pages. In fact, epublishers are increasingly publishing 'novellas' of a length that would have qualified as a short story a while ago.
Jacqueline wrote: "In fact, epublishers are increasingly publishing 'novellas' of a length that would have qualified as a short story a while ago..."I have noticed that and I don't like the trend towards novellas. I have stopped buying ebooks under a certain word length unless they are part of a published anthology.
The number of reviews you read where people complain about the length of a book always surprises me. As long as I'm engaged I don't care how long the book is. Another pet peeve is the contrived conclusion. I'm been involved in a discussion on pet peeves with books in another group. It makes fascinating reading.
G'day all, well, being a poet I found with the release of my 1st book everyone becomes a 'poetry expert' & some of the critique I received was very harsh, as I gained a 'following', of sorts, then the release of my 2nd book the many interveiws from all media, also the many anthologies & magazine publications, very harsh critisisms have become a lot less, but nevertheless still there, I have had a couple of 'run-ins' with a couple of American academics who only seemed to 'bag' my writing, although one finally came around & started offering advise & was really 'taken aback' when he found out the short time I have actually been writing & the quality of my sonnets which is the style of poetry he loves.
To answer the question 'REALLY Bad reviews - how do you cope', to me it does not matter how bad the review is, (I take them with a grain of salt) so long as it includes some helpful advise & not just a straight out 'bag' & I take all on booard, I look forward to critique from the writers group I attend, for they are honest & have been very helpfull.
To answer the question 'REALLY Bad reviews - how do you cope', to me it does not matter how bad the review is, (I take them with a grain of salt) so long as it includes some helpful advise & not just a straight out 'bag' & I take all on booard, I look forward to critique from the writers group I attend, for they are honest & have been very helpfull.
Jacqueline wrote: "Mmmh - don't start me on information dumping. Seems that most self-appointed authorities on writing (the ones that did Creative Writing 101 at college and then dropped out) have retained memories ..."This is interesting, Jacqueline.I'm having a similar problem with the book which I'm two thirds of the way through writing. The first 7000 words I'm putting through the critique section of www.youwriteon.com [which I can recommend] Journey from Walara is the 2nd book in a three maybe four book saga set on a station in the Carnarvon district WA. Several critters
want me to jump into the story immediately. Danny Hennessy, one of the sons, is training to be a pilot at Cunderdin in the WA wheatbelt. But Danny doesn't come without baggage. He already has his story in the 1st book, Wind from Danyari. I feel he can't come naked into the world in this 2nd book. He has to have thoughts about his previous life especially when he interacts with characters in the previous book. I don't have a lot of back story but I feel I have to have some.
I feel with a thriller you can jump in with all guns blazing but there are some books, many books, which you can't. With these you just have to go with your gut feeling. Laurel
Laurel wrote: "This is interesting, Jacqueline.I'm having a similar problem with the book which I'm two thirds of the way through writing. The first 7000 words I'm putting through the critique section of www.youwriteon.com [which I can recommend] ..."Actually, in the context of this discussion, www.youwriteon.com is a great place to get perspective. You basically upload your writing and other budding writers will review it while you're given assignments to review other people's work as well.
You learn quickly that it all comes down to taste. Some people loved my work, others were indifferent. It taught you not to 'take it too seriously' unless there was something constructive I could take away from what was said.
One reviewer said about my first chapter, that it didn't 'feel Australian' and that the characters were more 'New York'. The story takes place in the Afterlife. Did he expect the main characters to arrive with a pet kangaroo?
You learn from people who are on your same wavelength but are not afraid of being honest with you.
Hi Kevin - I'm glad to meet another Oz writer on YWO. Another reason why I like YWO is because they have published two of my books and will shortly publish a third. Another good critique site for writers is http://internet writingworkshop.comlaurel
Kevin wrote: "One reviewer said about my first chapter, that it didn't 'feel Australian' and that the characters were more 'New York'. The story takes place in the Afterlife. Did he expect the main characters to arrive with a pet kangaroo?..."LOL:DD
Kevin obviously forgot to slip in the occasional g'day mate, how ya goin' love and fair dinkum often enough, 'cause we say those things all the time.
Gail "cyborg" wrote: "Kevin obviously forgot to slip in the occasional g'day mate, how ya goin' love and fair dinkum often enough, 'cause we say those things all the time."I hate that gratuitious "fair dinkum' etc slang dropping in some Aussie books. I mean WHO SAYS IT? It would be a good topic in that pet peeve discussion you've got in your other group Gail...
P.S. Gail I think you're being a bit rough on Danii!
:D It's the price you pay for having a successful sister.
Mandy wrote: "I have noticed that and I don't like the trend towards novellas. I have stopped buying ebooks under a certain word length unless they are part of a published anthology. "Meep! I resemble that remark!! *lol*
I love the novella/novelette trend in ebooks. I think it has a LOT more people reading.
Naomi wrote: "Mandy wrote: "I have noticed that and I don't like the trend towards novellas. I have stopped buying ebooks under a certain word length unless they are part of a published anthology. "Meep! I res..."
Sorry Naomi! I think I'm just a bit "Novella'd" out at the moment. I went through a stage when I was reding scores of them and at the moment I'm into those big fat doorstopper type books.;D
Jacqueline wrote: "Like Light o'Love?"Exactly.;P
Mandy wrote: "Sorry Naomi! I think I'm just a bit "Novella'd" out at the moment. I went through a stage when I was reding scores of them and at the moment I'm into those big fat doorstopper type books.;D "*grin* I don't actually tend to enjoy reading novellas and shorter myself. I like something HUGE that will take me a few hours to read. But I still like _writing_ them. Maybe because my day job involves writing lonnnnnnnnng documents. Boring ones, with headings like, 'Setting up Wireless RADIUS with WPA Encryption'. *shudder*
I've been caught out a couple of times with e-books that turn out to be short stories. The last one, which I assumed was a novel, turned out to be only around 2,000 words long - and it was crap.
'I hate that gratuitious "fair dinkum' etc slang dropping in some Aussie books. I mean WHO SAYS IT? 'Only Steve Irwin and Alf Stewart from Home & Away - thank god!
Then again, the level of Americanism that's crept into our language really bugs me. Obviously it's down to how much of our television content is from the US. A couple of my pet peeves: elevator (lift), sidewalk (footpath or pavement) and parking lot (car park)
'If I leap into the action from the beginning as is expected in modern novels, I have to delete all the scene setting which lets the reader know what my heroine's about, and somehow squeeze it in later, bit by bit.'I honestly believe, Monya, that like most writing 'rules' it depends largely on the story. I always tend to start mine at a point where something significant happens, but not all stories should be. With some plots you really do need to know the characters on a personal level before the plot gets rolling, otherwise you won't care less what happens to them: they'll just be characters. I say go with your instinct.
Fair dinkum Jenny, you should visit the far, far north of Qld, you will often hear that as well as dunny, cobber, stone the crows, maaaaate!, your shout bloke, on ya bike, etc. etc. etc. I love our unique 'Aussie' vernacular & am so sad & angry at the amount of Americanisms infiltrating our youths vocabulary. I'm a fair dinkum aussie & bloody proud of it (-:
It is only going to get worse unfortunately. We are being assimilated. I have stopped my children watching most of the teen American television. Those shows don't send the sort of message I want my kids to receive, lack of respect for others being the biggest issue, amongst other things.
Totally agree Gail. & one of my pet hates at the moment is this '9-11' it's September 11th everyone. & our news media people are just as bad.
Monya wrote: "Jadqueline and Laura - heartfelt agreement from me! I'm currently procrastinating about cutting 60,000 words from my W.I.P. (I have a feeling I've moaned about this before! Maybe it was to another ..."60,000 words is a lot to delete from your book, Monya. I think you need some back story and I agree long flashbacks can be a pain to read and a lot of readers tend to skip over them to get back into the active story. How long is your book. If I deleted 60,000 from any of my books, I'd have only 12,000 - 15,000 left. Laurel
Gail "cyborg" wrote: "It is only going to get worse unfortunately. We are being assimilated. I have stopped my children watching most of the teen American television. Those shows don't send the sort of message I want m..."Lack of respect for others started with Big Brother. It became totally acceptable to devalue someone by voting them out.
Kevin wrote: "Lack of respect for others started with Big Brother. It became totally acceptable to devalue someone by voting them out..."I thought Big Brother started in England? In any case that's a big statement Kevin.;P I'm going to think about it for a while and come back to this discussion...
I was really refering to shows aimed at younger teen's such as The Amanda Show, Zoey 101, and Hannah Montana. Just to name a few.
Mandy wrote: I thought Big Brother started in England? In any case th..."
In the Netherlands, actually. It just seemed to be the beginning of making actual people feel less than their counterparts on national television.
Or maybe Survivor did.
Jacqueline wrote: "Cut 60,000 words? That sounds silly - how many words total, and why is so much going? Sounds like you are trying to fit a schooner into a pot there, and I like the odd schooner...Please don't t..."
Jacqueline, the whole book is 160,000 words, but I've been told by every publisher and agent I contact that no one wants anything over 100,000. The Pirate And The Puritan is 130,000 and I've had no complaints, but it was published 3 years ago.
A good friend in our local writers group read the WIP and while she had no trouble with the beginning, she found the ending a bit slow. (Very tactfully said!) So I have a challenge here (and frankly I'm a bit old to enjoy challenges!) I cut back the beginning, OK, think I can do that.
The ending will have to be drastically changed. Now THAT'S a challenge. I do hope I'm equal to it, and equal to turning out a novel that isn't a formula romance in the process.
The publishing industry is in a puzzling state at the moment. I've seen several articles on the situation. So we simply have to ride it like a wild horse. Even wild horses can be tamed... I'll have to morph into a book whisperer!
I suppose your friend's concern regarding your slow start could have been raised in the context that the beginning is what will hook a publisher and should therefore not be taken up with too much character building. In this context it makes sense. I'm not quite sure why this means you'll have to change your ending though.
9/11 - tell me about it David. I keep thinking the event happened in November.
It doesn't worry me that it's called 9-11 even here in Australia. It happened to the US people so why shouldn't they use the abbreviation that makes sense to them!:)
G'day Mandy, I don't have a problem with the American use of the abbreviation '9-11' or their vocabulary, what I'm not happy with is our kids becomming & sounding more Americanised each day, I have seen them in town here & the usual greet is 'yo bro whats on the go man' & recently overheard a group of young girls 'wow guys, thats so gagga' I like listening to my American friends talk, the same way, I'm sure, they like to hear our vernacular, all I'm saying is, Australians have a unique vocabulary & vernacular, why should we imitate someone else & risk loosing part of our heritage. I have 'pulled' my grandaughter up a couple of times & explained the difference between American & Australian, certain phrases or words.
"I have 'pulled' my grandaughter up a couple of times & explained the difference between American & Australian, certain phrases or words."Unless your granddaughter is impossibly sweet and obedient, I can just imagine the scene...
Jenny wrote: "I suppose your friend's concern regarding your slow start could have been raised in the context that the beginning is what will hook a publisher and should therefore not be taken up with too much c..."Oh, you're quite right about grabbing the publisher's attention with the first sentence etc. The ending, though it makes perfect sense in the story, just isn't as exciting and adventurous as the middle! Of course, not having read it, you're working in the dark. My problem, but I'm grateful to everyone who commented.
I too have a slow start to Erich's Plea but it's vital to understanding the character of Slade and the context of the events to come. I try to keep background info to a minimum while I'm in the story but some of it needs to be told and again, it so often is a matter of taste.As for Americanisms my biggest pet peeve is their reaction to our spelling - I had so many people claim typos in my novel I ended up redoing the whole thing in American spelling and I felt/feel like a complete sell out :)
Tracey wrote: "I too have a slow start to Erich's Plea but it's vital to understanding the character of Slade and the context of the events to come. I try to keep background info to a minimum while I'm in the st..."About the spelling, I'm with you there. It'd feel like a sell-out to convert ours to theirs. But I've been lucky so far. The Wild Rose Press allowed me to keep English/Aust sp. for The Pirate And The Puritan because it was set in colonial USA in 1704. And they allowed me to keep it in Blueprint For Love because it's set in Oz. I actually started a discussion thread on Amazon about it, and only received two unfavourable responses.
Then again, it's going to be interesting to see what happens if and when my WIP is published somewhere. The heroine's English, the hero American, it's 1817 and the action takes place on the eastern coast of the USA. Yes indeed, it will be interesting...
I was born in the US but left there in the mid 80s to make Australia home. I still have the American accent and am accused of using Americanisms by true blues. I have no idea how much of that is a carry over from when I lived in the US and how much is an influence from telly, reading, etc.Now, I have a question for you Aussies. A friend of mine who edits my writing goes a bit nutty every time I use the word "gotten". Like "I've gotten a lot of sun today" or "I haven't gotten a new jumper this winter" or whatever. She says it's a tacky Americanism. Is it? Does it make you all a bit nutty? I now do a global search after I've finished writing a book to make sure I eradicate those pesky "gottens" but I just wonder ...
I don't know if it is tacky, but it's certainly American. You can say it, but I can't. OK in dialogue or narrative, if it is an American speaking, but not in conventional text. My take...
Jacqueline wrote: "I don't know if it is tacky, but it's certainly American. You can say it, but I can't. OK in dialogue or narrative, if it is an American speaking, but not in conventional text. My take..."Damn, she was right. If you don't mind, I'll stop using "gotten" but never tell my friend you agree with her (she's insufferable about my Americanism's as it is :-)
Stephanie wrote: "It's interesting reading some of the posts in this thread--thanks for some great discussion, everyone!I run a book review blog, so I suppose my perspective is more from the nasty and critical 'da..."
Do you know if the author reworked his manuscript?
Here's a quote from bestselling author Matthew Reilly on the types of bad criticism he's received:MATTHEW REILLY: I've had reviewers who have enjoyed the books, I've had reviewers who've hated the books. I've had reviewers call me racist. I've had one book reviewer say that Scarecrow had less literary merit than a shopping docket.
But part of the success as well is developing some emotional armour. You can't please everybody and you can't expect to please everybody. There was a fellow who wrote me an email and he said he'd like to see me lowered hands first into a woodchipping machine so I could never type my drivel again. He was a bit disturbed. Sometimes if you're going to have your name in large silver letters on the cover of a book, you're going to have to deal with that too.
Stephanie wrote: "It's interesting reading some of the posts in this thread--thanks for some great discussion, everyone!I run a book review blog, so I suppose my perspective is more from the nasty and critical 'da..."
Stephanie, it sounds like you did the right thing. I guess I feel that with popular authors ala Dan Brown, a bit of honesty in a review is fair. For a small, unknown author, putting a bad review out on the web soemwhere can really a) kill their prospects (which may be all they have going for them if their current book ain't great) and b) demoralise them to the point of discouragement. You giving private feedback and agreeing to go no further did just the opposite. It gave the guy something to think about and hopefully he'll be a much better author that we can all enjoy in the future.
Well done!
Completely agree with last comment. I think you did the right thing too Stephanie. It's a scary thing to hand over your MS for the world to inspect - just because we can get a book published doesn't mean we're suddenly Teflon-coated. A really bad review might only mean that your historical romance was read by someone who usually reads science fiction, but it's hard not to take it to heart. Criticism should be constructive and fairly gentle...
(This does not apply to Dan Brown and The DVC of course..!)
Aussie Readers
Books mentioned in this topic
Poisoned Pens: Literary Invective from Amis to Zola (other topics)Authors mentioned in this topic
Matthew Reilly (other topics)Joanne Valiukas (other topics)
He had to buy more cigarettes immediately. He took his coat from behind the door and stepped out into the night. He heard the patter of water falling from the trees before he felt moisture coursing down his face. The smell of moist leaf mould filled the air.
He returned to the house for an umbrella.
Or you could try the wrong way:
He had to buy more cigarettes immediately. He took his coat from behind the door and stepped out into the night.
It was raining, and he returned to the house for an umbrella.
I vote for simple, and quote Hemingway in justification.