Ling AP Lit. and Comp. 2010-11 discussion
The Search for Identity
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Jordan article response pointers and example
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I'd like to clarify my comment first, I didn't mean that the dialect lightens the mood in that it makes the story happy; but, in some cases the writing distracted me from the message of the story.Also, "Hebrish" is different from either "Konglish" or the dialect in TCP, in that it is mostly English, with Hebrew words thrown in. That makes this dialect more of a travesty, and more funny than that of TCP.
One aspect that I feel is crucial to understanding Celie’s writing style is the audience to which she addresses her letters. For the majority of the book, Celie is divulging her deepest and darkest thoughts, emotions, and secrets, however sexual or otherwise they be, to God, the only being, human or divine, to whom she is not afraid to reveal her personal life. Also, God is the almighty being of judgment and salvation present in most Western religions, which are in themselves constructs people, and Celie, turn to when their lives are desperate and spinning out of their control (a thought Loren brought up in class). If nothing else, such diary entries should be written in the way that best conveys the shame, embarrassment, and confusion Celie constantly feels; and this way, Walker feels, is the raw language we see Celie use.
I completely agree with Alon. As we discussed in class, a lot of the times we write in proper english to mask our rawest emotions and to seem as intelligent as possible, but Celie is writing for God, and God only. We write for different purposes; when we text our friends or email them, we use informal language, and when we write essays for school, we use a formal structure. When Celie is conveying the most honest of feelings, she should feel no pressure to have perfect english, but should feel comfortable communicating in which is the easiest way to say how she truly feels.
Alon wrote: "One aspect that I feel is crucial to understanding Celie’s writing style is the audience to which she addresses her letters. For the majority of the book, Celie is divulging her deepest and darkest..."I do see your point Alon (and Arielle), but perhaps do you think that Celie might be addressing her letters to God not because he/she/it is "the only being, human or divine, to whom she is not afraid to reveal her personal life," but because she does not have anyone else to whom she can address them? As we discussed in class, Celie's world is extremely tiny, especially compared to Nettie (a point brought up by Loren). Really, to whom else could she really address them? And is this not the reason why after Celie finds all of the letters from Nettie and learning that she is alive and well, starts addressing her letters to Nettie and not to God?
In addition, in that same letter in which Celie declares "I don't write to God no more. I write to you" (Walker 193), she also reveals her disillusionment with this God figure who from her point-of-view, had "give me a lynched daddy, a crazy mama, a lowdown dog of a step pa and a sister I probably won't ever see again" (Ibid).
So if it were the case that she is the one that she turns to when her life is "spinning out of control," then why would she turn to the very thing that she believes to be responsible for all the suffering in her life in search for salvation? And if she were, in fact, searching for salvation from God, then why would Celie then stop communicating with him/her/it and instead start addressing Nettie?
Oh, and I pose my questions to not just the aforementioned, but to anyone else in our class to answer!
I agree with Alon and Arielle. Celie is writing to God and is truly herself, saying what is on her mind in "Black English," having never received proper education. As for Nettie, the reason that her letters are written in a different voice also is because she is writing to Celie. Nettie is recounting what is happening to someone not there. Celie's letters feel like she is writing "in the moment," focusing on the even happening and her emotions as she feels them instead of focusing on her language and on her reflection. Since Celie has never recieved formal education, she writes the way she speaks. In order to make the character believable, relatable, and personal, Walker had to write in the first-person "Black English."
As others have previously stated, Celie writes to God in order to convey her inner most thoughts, as she has a very tiny amount of people with which she can speak emotionally. Yet, I must also admit that as I was reading Celie's letters to God, I felt a certain element of confession. Celie has suffered emotional, physical and sexual abuse and feels as if she must share this pain with another. Although she is not at fault for the pain she has been caused, she is eager to remove these thoughts from her chest and admit them to another being. These raw emotions can only be truly conveyed with the use of "Black English." Walker uses "Black English" as a tool to create the voice of Celie and reveal the uncensored, true pain this character has experienced.
Well, Alon and Arielle, do remember that she also addresses her letters to Nettie as well--although Nettie has as close to a God-like understanding of Celie as anyone can get, given that they were so close all of their lives. Either way, though, I'm not convinced that if she were to write to anyone else she'd be able to write in "White English" seeing as she was never educated that way. Having said that, I definitely believe she wouldn't be so brutally honest and show so much raw emotion if the letters were to anybody else, and I'm glad they're in her real voice, because that adds so much more meaning to her words.As far as what Gabe says goes, there definitely is a distinct difference between a language like "Hebrish" and "Black English," and honestly, I think "Konglish" lies somewhere in between. While "Konglish" is basically a Korean person's attempt at a second language (English, obviously), there is something fundamentally different about "Black English" in that it's the first (and likely only) language a person would learn. That's significant, because right off the bat, a person speaking in "Black English" only knows what would be considered a "wrong" way of speaking (and writing), since we would consider it to be completely gramatically incorrect. Like Eitan said in class, while we'd respect a person writing a book in broken English if Enlgish were their second language, we would criticize a work written by someone who learned English first, but still writes and speaks "incorrectly," and I think that's why Jordan's students were so taken aback by Celie's writing.
I agree with Rachel in that Celie writes to get things off of her chest. Many of us talk to friends or family members when things are bothering us. Celie does not have someone to talk to. As a result, her letters to God have more of a therapeutic purpose than Nettie's letters, which are meant for other people to read and understand. Therefore, the Black English with which she uses to write her letters should be harder to understand than Nettie's Standard English, because it is not meant for others to read. Celie is merely pouring out her thoughts unfiltered, in order to make herself feel better. Nettie, on the other hand, has to make her writing readable.
The point of bringing up Konglish and Hebrish was not to unfairly compare them with Black English, but rather to prove a point. How would you feel if you read writing that mimicked the way you speak? For a lot of us the feelings that Jordan’s students had when reading TCP are hard to imagine, because we have been taught from the get-go to speak in what is considered “proper” English. We talk and write in a way that is considered correct and what is accepted, but those students do not. I think reading the novel showed those students just how different they are and that is a tough thing to go through. But I don’t think that every person who goes through the same experience as those students will react like they did. I think the reaction depends upon how comfortable the people are with themselves. Some will not like being considered different and become self-conscious of it, much like the students. Others will embrace it and be proud, as they should be. There is absolutely nothing wrong with speaking and writing that way. Just because it is different from what is accepted, does not make it wrong. I actually kind of enjoyed reading the Black English. It is real and vibrant and soulful. I think the reaction a person has all depends on the kind of person who is reading.
Thanks Grace for clarifying what Eitan had mentioned in class. But instead of discussing about how subtle or vast the differences between the two dialects are I think it's more important to note that both "Konglish" and Celie's "Black English" share a simple, crucial key: they are deviations from the norm. I think Chunsoo brought up "Konglish" as his personal example simply because Konglish, like Celie's writings, are very different from the "standard English" that we are so accustomed to.
I just want to share a quick personal experience. Sometimes when my family decides to eat at Five Guy's (no doubt one of the best hamburger restaurants in our region), my mom dares herself to order food for the family and commands my dad and me to simply observe. Apparently, her challenge to order with her broken English is all for "self-educational" purposes. Anyways as my mom talks to the employee, I could see that the cashier fought to conceal his frustration. Observing how the line behind us kept getting longer, I felt ashamed about this entire situation. I did not want my family to be looked down upon by others because my mom talks in "Konglish." I love my mom to death, but situations like this make me want to take over with my "standard English."Connecting this to the article, I think that the African-American students in Jordan's class had almost the same feelings. They were initially silent when the teacher had asked for their reactions to the novel because they felt confused, stressed, and somewhat ashamed about the book's language. They rejected any possible similarities between the traditional dialect and their own casual speech. And like me, they wanted to "take over" by translating the first passage of the novel into what they called "Standard English" (125).
I agree with Catie in that the novel showed the students how different they are. June Jordan's students were probably not willing to initially accept just how different they were. Also, I think that Black English does not detract from Celie's thoughts; if anything, it strengthens the power of her words. Although Celie does not have the same level of education as her sister Nettie, I still think her letters are stronger and more emotional. With Nettie's letters, I felt as if there was a barrier; the "standard English" we are used to hearing and speaking does not let us really here Nettie's uncensored thoughts. Celie's passionate letters also contain a lot less about experiences that take place outside of her immediate surroundings. Considering she has not really left the area she has been living in, Celie can only write about problems and emotions that are present in her daily life.
Celie had been told she was stupid throughout her life, and made to feel like the lesser sister. This was the case even though she had a great desire to learn. The language that Celie used in her letters may have been unsophisticated, but it was all her. This was effective because a main theme of the novel was Celie's gradual empowerment, and how she and other women like Sofie did not need men or society to define or rule their lives. By using Celie using her own style she is setting herself apart from the oppression she was placed under. She doesn't need some standard to define the way in which she communicates her inner most thoughts.For the first half of the novel she addresses her letters to God, however as Ian said she changes this and addresses the letters to Nettie. I believe this represents Celie's further individualized development and empowerment because she is now writing to something that is real and tangible rather then something unknown. Almost as if she is taking control.
Loren, I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but are you positing the argument that seeking religion is a sign of a lack of control over one's own life?I feel as though this change is better shown not because Celie is addressing her letters to something tangible, but rather that Celie is now addressing her letters to someone who can judge her.
I didn’t get the chance to share my passage and reading today during class, so I will take this opportunity to do so. One idea that struck me was inspired by a passage that begins “Nonetheless, white standards of English persist, supreme and unquestioned, in these United States.” (124). The paragraph then continues to discuss the inconsistency with this standard, due to the diverse population in the country, and the ever growing extremeties between each dialect.
This got me thinking. What makes the “white standard” of English the proper standard? Why are Black or Hispanic dialects considered lesser to the general population? I then realized that the “white standard” is being used interchangeably with the “proper standard.” As we have discussed in class, the “proper standard” of English is necessary to provide the basis of communication. These fine points of proper English can only be taught through lessons and schooling, both of which are widely available to many whites. In more rural areas of the country, where Celie and her counterparts live, schooling is rare, and therefore “proper” or “white” English is not so widely seen. This isn’t to say one dialect is better than the other. It is simply to note the availability and educational opportunity seen throughout the country.
What I was going to say in class today, (before the fire drill) is that I think the students referred to in Jordan's article are so surprised and upset by Celie's "Black English" because literature has always been regardest in the highest esteem. Most of us consider Pip's complicated and formal vernacular in Great Expectations to be the "proper" way to write literature. A piece of literature is meant to be an intellectual masterpiece, something that can survive the ages, and we don't expect Celie's kind of language in a book that is considered to be great literature. However, Alice Walker seems to prove us all wrong--she drastically changed the rules of literature, making us all take a step back and become open-minded about what can be considered a masterpiece.
Loren, you said that Celie "doesn't need some standard to define the way in which she communicates her inner most thoughts". I think that it's less that she "doesn't need" to compare herself to the standard, but that until she starts receiving letters from Nettie, she doesn't have any Standard English to compare her writing and speaking to. Everybody around her speaks Black English--it's what she's grown up with.I agree with Anjali about being ashamed at reading a book that's written the way I speak. Every time I find myself reading a teen lit book where the dialogue of the characters is written to sound like the way teens speak, it's peppered with "like" and "totally" and "Ohmygod!", and I find myself appalled and ashamed at the way they're speaking, even though the way I speak with my friends is similar.
I would like to clarify my comment from class. All I wanted to state was that there is a fundamental difference between an amalgam of 2 languages or broken form of English as a second language and this uneducated southern black dialect in the book. Due to this fundamental difference I feel that a comparison cannot be done. As a result of this, I would imagine that one writing in a second language would probably be proud that they have written anything intelligable while The students' response to Celie's writing was shame. I think this is because that form of English carries negative social connnotations and could cause them to feel bad about their own speaking. Digging deeper, I believe that this shame at their own languages could have been caused by society looking down on anything different.
I think that since "proper" white english was so instilled in the Black students mind that when they read The Color Purple, they were surprised at how colloquial the passage was. Despite talking similarly to Celie, these students seem to concentrate on the formality of Celie's language rather than comparing it to their way of speaking. Once they found out that Celie and they talked akin, they realised that Black English is an important dialect and should be recognised at rather a formal dialect.
Mod
Thanks also for sharing your anecdote! Would you consider it an example of "linguistic push-pull"?
David wrote: "Thanks Grace for clarifying what Eitan had mentioned in class. But instead of discussing about how subtle or vast the differences between the two dialects are I think it's more important to note th..."
For example:
When Jordan writes, "We begin to grow up in a house where every true mirror shows us the face of somebody who does not belong there, whose walk and whose talk will never look or sound 'right,' because that house was meant to shelter a family that is alien and hostile to us" (Jordan 123), I think immediately of Celie *and* Pip.
Celie's self hatred and shame is reflected in this statement not only because of the physical and sexual abuse she suffers, but also through the language she does not, and cannot speak.
Compared to Nettie (as Loren mentioned), Celie's world is so tiny. She can only admire (rather than ever join) Nettie, who has learned to speak and write "properly." Nettie sees Africa, England, and New York because she travels with missionaries, who, although they are black, are also conversant in the Standard English of the Bible. As Shug notices, "Ain't no way to read the bible and not think God white" (Walker 202). In other words, conforming to "white standards" (Jordan 124) has not only won them admission (but not necessariy acceptance) to "the house" (Jordan 123), but also a ticket to leave it and explore.
I also think of the Pip-Joe language contrast, but I'll leave that to someone else to discuss.
Hope this helps!