Classics and the Western Canon discussion
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Planning for our Next Major Read, part 4
Christopher wrote: "I completely agree with the following notions: (1) great books of the Western Canon most definitely include non-fiction; (2) we should read great books for their subject matter alone; (3) some non-..."I agree with 1, 3, and 4. I can't agree fully with 2, since sometimes I think we read books for a combination of their subject matter and artistic quality. Indeed, many books with very valuable subject matter but very badly written have probably dropped out of the "great books" category solely because the writing was so bad, whereas if the exact same subject matter had been presented in a more artistic way, the books would have survived and thrived. (This may, for example, be why Darwin's Origin of Species survived when other earlier books which contained the basic same subject matter but were not written in way to appeal to a mass audience didn't.)
Everyman wrote: "Christopher wrote: "I completely agree with the following notions: (1) great books of the Western Canon most definitely include non-fiction; (2) we should read great books for their subject matter ..."You are correct. Believe it or not, but I sort of meant that implicitly. My point was (like Kathy's comment above) that the core rationale for reading a particular book was its contribution to civilization. If it is poorly written, it is probably not likely to have made much of a contribution, I suppose.
This is where we have a culture clash. I, as a member of a culture with little more than a handful of speakers and few, if any, mentions on "great books" list put together by Americans (Europeans tend to be a bit more kind with small literatures and understand their role better), can't imagine deeming a book "great" based solely on how many people have read it or its influence on Western culture as a whole. I think I've read enough poetry both in Romanian and in English to be able to say that there is nothing that makes English speakers write better poetry than people who speak (and write in) Romanian. The fact that Byron is read by more people than Eminescu is due to nothing more than chance. So I simply can't guide my readings by something as absurdly random as a book's "contribution to civilization", instead I try to think of writers solely in terms of their artistic merits (which I find considerably more objective).
Andreea wrote: "I think I've read enough poetry both in Romanian and in English to be able to say that there is nothing that makes English speakers write better poetry than people who speak (and write in) Romanian."With this line I agree completely, but in Spanish, all the "great" poets seem to be only English speaking people, I personally find poetry in Spanish better.
On the rest, I'm more with the others there is so much more than just artistic merit.
Eminescu's poetry is beautiful. I bought several small volumes while in Timis,oara visiting friends. It is unfortunate that so many interesting works go untranslated (and thus are inaccessible to audiences that don't speak the languages of the original authors). Translations are never quite the same thing as the original (as the Agamemnon discussion has repeatedly pointed out), but they are the only way most people will have access to works not written in their own language (or those one or two others they are able to read well in).The only other Romanian author I am familiar with is Ionesco, the playwright, who wrote in French. He is the one Absurdist I absolutely love, not just appreciate or tolerate. Very funny stuff.
(I would mention my enjoyment of Enescu, but composers are probably off topic.)
Christopher wrote: "I completely agree with the following notions: (1) great books of the Western Canon most definitely include non-fiction; (2) we should read great books for their subject matter alone..."
I can't agree with #2 at all. The subject matter of, say, Madame Bovary could be said to be the same as that of the trashiest bodice-ripper out there -- "Adultery" -- yet MB is considered one of the greatest works of fiction ever. Just as with art, where a drawing of a bowl of fruit can be art or not, so can any topic a real artist/author chooses as the canvas to paint his or her world on be great literature. Or not!
Hope this made sense ...
I can't agree with #2 at all. The subject matter of, say, Madame Bovary could be said to be the same as that of the trashiest bodice-ripper out there -- "Adultery" -- yet MB is considered one of the greatest works of fiction ever. Just as with art, where a drawing of a bowl of fruit can be art or not, so can any topic a real artist/author chooses as the canvas to paint his or her world on be great literature. Or not!
Hope this made sense ...
M wrote: "Christopher wrote: "I completely agree with the following notions: (1) great books of the Western Canon most definitely include non-fiction; (2) we should read great books for their subject matter ..."See my reply at #215.
Andreea wrote: "This is where we have a culture clash. I, as a member of a culture with little more than a handful of speakers and few, if any, mentions on "great books" list put together by Americans (Europeans t..."I think it's a matter of the definition of great books. As it's used in the Western Canon sense, great books doesn't mean just books that are very enjoyable and rewarding to read. It goes beyond that. The books have to have participated in a significant way to the development of western thought. There are many great books that aren't "great books" because they haven't been part of the overall development of Western intellectual thought. Leaving a book out of the "great books" lists doesn't mean that's not a wonderful book. It means something quite different from that.
Patrice wrote: "It's been a really long time since I've read Madame Bovary and yes, it's about adultery and so are bodice rippers. But if I remember correctly Madame Bovary was about the dangerous influence of bo..."
I feel the same way, Patrice. And yes, bodice rippers did play a huge role in the odyssey of Emma Bovary; good catch! When using that example I didn't even think of that. :-)
I feel the same way, Patrice. And yes, bodice rippers did play a huge role in the odyssey of Emma Bovary; good catch! When using that example I didn't even think of that. :-)
Patrice wrote: "It's like coming into a discussion on this site and just reading the final comments. You have no idea what they're referring to."LOL, this is so me right know with Agamemnon, I'm even considering not taking part yet and wait for The Libation Bearers.
Penny wrote: "Patrice wrote: "It's like coming into a discussion on this site and just reading the final comments. You have no idea what they're referring to."LOL, this is so me right know with Agamemnon, I'm even considering not taking part yet and wait for The Libation Bearers. "
But now you've both found the great books, and better late than never! Yes, there's catching u to do, but that's why we're all here together helping each other out.
Penny, and everybody else who feels hesitant about jumping in, please don't wait to enter the discussion. I sincerely believe that every poster has something valuable to contribute, even if they are brand new to these books. Just by making a simple point or raising a question you will be helping enrich the conversation for all of us. Sometimes a basic question asked by somebody here will trigger a new reading of the text which had never occurred to me before.
It's like a tapestry. No single thread by itself seems at all important, some those threads may be quite short or very plain in color, but without the single threads the tapestry would never exist, and every thread is important in making a coherent and meaningful pattern. So please, add your threads, however unimportant they might seem to you, to the tapestry of the discussion. We will all be richer for it.
Poorly Written Great Books:Much of Aristitle. One theory is that his treatises were meant only as lecture notes.
Pascal, Pensees. Notes for a book he never completed.
Kant, Critique of Pure Reason among others. Seemingly deliberately impenetrable.
Roger wrote: "Poorly Written Great Books:Much of Aristitle. ...Kant, Critique of Pure Reason among others. Seemingly deliberately impenetrable.
."
I agree with Aristotle in a way, his writing is not fluid, but in another way I think his structure and logic make him actually fairly easy to understand.
Kant, I agree. He is, I'm told, even more impenetrable in the German; when I was reading him I was told that many German philosophers would learn English so they could read him in translation, since he made more sense in English than German. I don't read German, so I don't know.
To your list I would add Bacon. I know he's massively important, but I just can't read him.
Kathy wrote: "And I consider Darwin to be an extemely accomplished writer - On the Origin of Species is a wonderful book for anyone to read, not just those of a scientific persuasion. But I would think that arti..."Seriously? I have a degree in evolutionary bio, and I love Darwin, but reading Origin was a brutal slog, and there are still bits I haven't read. All those chapters on bloody pigeons.
Everyman wrote: "Roger wrote: "Poorly Written Great Books:Much of Aristitle. ...Kant, Critique of Pure Reason among others. Seemingly deliberately impenetrable.
."
I agree with Aristotle in a way, his writing i..."
I read the Novum Organum a few years ago and had no trouble. I was impressed with how he laid out the whole program of scientific research that has tranformed and improved our lives since his time. I don't remember any scientist ever saying, "I'm doing what Bacon said we should do," but in fact he identified the path to riches, health, and power
To a certain extent I think a "Canon" is parochial by nature, and while it must exclude great works of thought or art that are deemed too tangential, or not well known enough, or not in line with the "tradition", I think we now live in a world that might be able to transcend those boundaries. I think a modern western audience without the benefit of a western education would find Aeschylus just as foreign as a Japanese Noh play. And given the influence of Japanese culture on American youth today, a younger audience might be more in tune with the Japanese play. IN any case, I understand the need for formal restrictions in a group like this. But I think the boundaries between cultures are fading, and eventually the boundaries between the Eastern and Western Canons will fade too.
Jewish literature was originally separate from Greco-Roman, but got absorbed into the Western tradition with the triumph of Christianity. I think we have a ways to go before Eastern literature is similarly naturalized. Maybe the 1001 Nights has made it. Eastern works still fascinate many precisely because of their foreignness, I think. That's only the first step to integration.
Everyman I might take part this weekend, I'm trying to catch up!There is a question I what to ask about the carpet and its meaning -specially the color-, but I'm waiting untill I go to the library and check other editions, the one I have has a purple carpet, something that I just assume had to do with it being a royal color, I don't know if the ancient greek saw it that way, but I go to the discussion thread and you guys are talking about a red one and it's symbolic meaning, so clearly there is something lost/mistaken in transltion, as always.
"The thread of the danger of bad literature started with Plato (as almost everything did). It went on to Don Quixote, it's in Madame Bovary and I'm seeing some of it in The Brother Karamazov at the moment."This seems like a popular theme. Apparently, great writers love to rant against those whose works they consider to be inferior. Off the top of my head, Hugo in Les Miserables and Austen in Northanger Abbey also warned against the adverse effects of reading trashy novels.
Penny wrote: "I'm waiting untill I go to the library and check other editions, the one I have has a purple carpet, something that I just assume had to do with it being a royal color, I don't know if the ancient greek saw it that way, but I go to the discussion thread and you guys are talking about a red one and it's symbolic meaning, so clearly there is something lost/mistaken in transltion, as always. "Thomas, any help from the Greek on this color question? Or do we not know exactly?
"IN any case, I understand the need for formal restrictions in a group like this. But I think the boundaries between cultures are fading, and eventually the boundaries between the Eastern and Western Canons will fade too."Yes. Another Arabic work that seems to have been 'naturalized' into the Western Canon is The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam (as translated by Fitzgerald). Besides the 1001 Nights, the 'Eastern Canon' would probably include works such as Basho's Haikus, Tang poetry, Rumi's Sufi poems, The Tale of Genji, The Romance of the Three Kingdoms, The Dream of the Red Chamber (Hung Lou Meng), The Mahabharata and The Ramayana.
As an Asian, I grew up with some of these, and they are still popular with young people, especially those that are frequently adapted as movies, comic books or even video games(!).
It's interesting that the few Eastern works that have been 'naturalized' are Arabic/Islamic ones.
Patrice wrote: "I guess the middle east is closer to the "west"so Arabic literature would have had more contact with Europe.But my impression is (and correct me if I'm wrong) that the way the cultures are coming..."
"I guess the middle east is closer to the "west"so Arabic literature would have had more contact with Europe."
I suppose that's true. Which is kind of ironic, considering the centuries old hostility between the West and the Islamic world.
"But my impression is (and correct me if I'm wrong) that the way the cultures are coming together is that Western culture has spread to the east."
This has been true for the last few centuries or so, but I think the tide might be turning, or at least that some aspects of Eastern culture has spread to the West. You can easily find Sushi, Chinese/Indian/Thai food in almost any major Western city. Western kids love Pokemon, Manga/Anime and Nintendo games. Wuxia (Chinese martial art movies) and Akira Kurosawa films are popular in the West. Many Westerners study Yoga, Buddhism, Kungfu or Karate.
It's no longer "OH, East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet." They do meet in many places and it's great! I love it that I can appreciate BOTH the Iliad (not yet, but soon) and the Mahabharata, Shakespeare and Li Po at the same time.
"I often think that English is the international language."
It is still the international language, and I think that it will remain so for the foreseeable future. But with the advent of China as a new economic (and perhaps later also military?) superpower, many people are learning Mandarin. A devilishly difficult language, granted, which is why I think that English will remain the global lingua franca for a while.
Patrice wrote: "Thanks Sandybanks. It's great to have your perspective.BTW, my daughter has learned Mandarin, Japanese, Tagalog, and Korean. She wants to be a Manga-ka. Oh and she's also a purple belt in kara..."
And I'm reading Aeschylus with you guys here! Maybe I'm naive, but I'm hoping that all of these cross-cultural influences would pave the way for greater understanding and thus a more peaceful future for humankind (we surely could use that!).
Patrice, what is a manga-ka?
The Friends school whose board I sit on has just added Mandarin to the curriculum.
The tapestry is an interesting example: the visible side shows the art, but the underside shows the skill.
The Friends school whose board I sit on has just added Mandarin to the curriculum.
The tapestry is an interesting example: the visible side shows the art, but the underside shows the skill.
Penny wrote: "There is a question I what to ask about the carpet and its meaning -specially the color-, the [edition] I have has a purple carpet, something that I just assume had to do with it being a royal color, ... but I go to the discussion thread and you guys are talking about a red one and it's symbolic meaning, so clearly there is something lost/mistaken in transltion, as always. "Not so much lost in translation as in understanding the color itself. Here's a link to a color chart which will probably help. Notice that in its three lighter shades, Tyrian purple is red-purple—hence, it is both red and purple, the color of blood and, because of its rarity and costliness, a color that became a status symbol (and later reserved for royalty).
I think all these aspects (and perhaps more) come into the meaning of red in the carpet. Costliness, definitely, since as several lines mention or refer to the dye comes from tiny crustaceans in the sea and it takes a huge number to dye that amount of cloth, making it extremely expensive and valuable. The Oxford Classical Dictionary has a description, to long to copy in here, of the lengthy and labor-intensive process needed to extract the dye from shellfish. In Rome, though not I think in Greece, purple was reserved for the aristocracy. Plebeians weren't allowed to wear purple.
There are several lines in Agamemnon I can't look up right this second about the sea, walking as I recall on shells, that sort of reference.
Red is also, of course, the color of blood.
Theatrically, this would have been a very dramatic incident. Agamemnon is standing in his chariot ready to go into the house, but Clytemnestra holds him up and calls for the servants to bring out the cloth. They would have come out of the skene building and started spreading this cloth in a long path from the skene building at the back of the orchestra up to where the chariot stood. The audience would have watched this, and it seems from the text that it might even have been done in silence, nobody speaking during the process of spreading the cloth, making it a very dramatic scene to imagine. Then the hesitation, will he, won't he, the struggle for supremacy in this first action of Agamemnon after arriving home from war, his capitulation against his better judgment, his taking off his shoes (sandals) and then stepping down onto the cloth. Imagine how a director could have wrung the maximum drama out of this scene!
Oh my! I've been wanting to read Mann's The magic mountain for a while, it'd be grand!
Just an aside about the purple/red discussion: yesterday I was watching the announcement of the Labour Party leadership contest with a friend. The winner of the poll (Ed Miliband) was wearing a purple tie. 'Oh, no,' said my friend, 'he's wearing purple'.
'What's wrong with that?' I replied.
'Hubris.' Came the reply. 'Don't you remember how Agamemnon walked on that purple cloth and the gods punished him?'
Kathy wrote: "Just an aside about the purple/red discussion: yesterday I was watching the announcement of the Labour Party leadership contest with a friend. The winner of the poll (Ed Miliband) was wearing a pu..."*gasps*
Kathy wrote: "Just an aside about the purple/red discussion: yesterday I was watching the announcement of the Labour Party leadership contest with a friend. The winner of the poll (Ed Miliband) was wearing a pu..."That is outstanding, Kathy! What an interesting observation (and coincidence).
Kathy wrote: "Just an aside about the purple/red discussion: yesterday I was watching the announcement of the Labour Party leadership contest with a friend. The winner of the poll (Ed Miliband) was wearing a pu..."
There is another possible explanation for the 'purple' tie. Currently campaigning is starting on a referendum to change the electoral system from the current First Past The Post system to an Alternative Vote system. The campaign for the change is being spearheaded by a group called"Take Back Parliament" who have adopted 'purple' as their campaign colour. It is just possible that this could be a subtle signal being given out by the 'purple' tie.
There is another possible explanation for the 'purple' tie. Currently campaigning is starting on a referendum to change the electoral system from the current First Past The Post system to an Alternative Vote system. The campaign for the change is being spearheaded by a group called"Take Back Parliament" who have adopted 'purple' as their campaign colour. It is just possible that this could be a subtle signal being given out by the 'purple' tie.
Patrice wrote: "I'm also amazed by how many references to these works are out there and I have missed them my entire life!"Yes! That is what The Great Conversation is all about - the way that we are enriched by understanding the reference points of our civilisation and being able to trace the ideas that have formed our culture over thousands of years. It gives us an opportunity to take the long view, rather than thinking that everything is shiny and new and just invented yesterday (as the ad men would have us believe).
I couldn't go to the library this weekend :(, but given that the word in Latin is purpura, that is not even a root is the same word púrpura, I highly doubt I'll find it differently. I beleive it is more a sing of luxury like others have said than of the blood, maybe someone just decided to use it that way to get a greater effect on the audience.
I really should start posting in the proper thread.
David wrote: "The campaign for the change is being spearheaded by a group called"Take Back Parliament" who have adopted 'purple' as their campaign colour. "Since the English, particularly the upper class, still I believe study the Roman empire much more than we do in this country and have more links with the Latin classics, and since the Romans considered purple to be a royal color and forbidden to the common people, this is an interesting color choice.
A little late to be weighing in on the discussion (boy were you guys busy over the weekend!), but my two denarii: I agree that non-fiction books are part of the canon (I try to be reading at least one NF and one Fiction classic at any given time). I thought On the Origin of Species was eminently readable (Aristotle not so much, but some of it is rather artistic nonetheless). I see a place for "small literatures"--as a Canadian I find our own literature crowded out by British and American competition on the big "Western Canon" stage (cf. the dearth of female voices prior to the nineteenth century)--but we can't argue against history. It is what it is. (That's why I have my own group which explores "Canadian classics" or the "Canadian canon" if you prefer). Other Eastern books that might be legitimately included in the Western canon: the Art of War, the Tao Te Ching, the Bhagavad Gita (perhaps even the Mahabharata as a whole), the philosophical and scientific works of Avicenna, ditto for Averroes. Oh, and Omar Khayyam was Persian not Arabic.
I have been trying to catch up on the comments and two things stand out in my brain, the color red and the opposition or integration of differing cultures. PBS aired what I thought was an excellent documentary recently. It illustrated how rare and valuable was a truly red dye in Europe,attested to by its absence in painting. This longed-for color was being produced cheaply by South American, probably Mayan Indians, from a natural foood, a plant. Europe of course discovered this and the exploitation began. When Ferdinand and Isabella learned of this, they captured these native peoples as slaves and used the proceeds to finance many wars.It took many arguments, much bloodshed and, God help us, many missionaries before it was decided how the native imports should be treated.A once superior civilization, Mayan-Aztec was destroyed by a European culture it did not understand. Today, the peoples of the Americas, if not absorbed in this country have become indistinguishable but their ancestry cannot be completely determined, despite a serious caste system the Europeans tries to implemennt. This clash of cultures was between Europe and the Americas and today no one would think seriously of such opposition. A new opposition occupies our minds, that of East and West. It is the actions of human beings that repeat history.And dear mother of that lucky child who speaks all those Eastern languages, however was she taught? You mentioned mentioned "Friends" so I presumed Quakereducation. To know languages is to own the worl! Congratulations to you both.
Does anyone remember the horrific description of Madame Bovary in the novel's ending. Syphylis has contorted her skin, her face, her eyes as well as her soul. Is Madame Bovary a morality play novel? I had a writing teacher(James Coetzee, no less) who believed that Flaubert was the model for all writers. Now, of course, he meant European, ignoring all the other masters in other cultures. Coetzee is hardly a half-step removed from the European heritage by being South-African.
I'll go away now but I haven't finished reading all the comments yet. Geraldine Wierzbicki-Roach (Gerry)
Geraldine wrote: "I have been trying to catch up on the comments and two things stand out in my brain, the color red and the opposition or integration of differing cultures. PBS aired what I thought was an excellent..."Fascinating thoughts. Come back soon!
"Oh, and Omar Khayyam was Persian not Arabic."Mea culpa. I should have said Islamic, not Arabic.
Geraldine wrote: "Does anyone remember the horrific description of Madame Bovary in the novel's ending. Syphylis has contorted her skin, her face, her eyes as well as her soul."
I don't remember that; are you sure? Your description sounds more like what happened in Dangerous Liaisons than what happened to Emma Bovary. But I haven't read MB in a while. I know I've read that Flaubert himself did contract syphilis, but can't recall his character following suit!
I don't remember that; are you sure? Your description sounds more like what happened in Dangerous Liaisons than what happened to Emma Bovary. But I haven't read MB in a while. I know I've read that Flaubert himself did contract syphilis, but can't recall his character following suit!
^I think she might have confused Madame Bovary with Zola's Nana. Though the entry for syphilis in Flaubert's Dictionnaire des idées reçues reads "plus ou moins, tout le monde en est affecté" (more or less, everybody has it).
Just a tidbit about Twain, our next major author. I read in the Seattle P-I today that the first book checked out of any Seattle public library was Twain's Innocents Abroad. This was in 1981.
Zeke wrote: "1981? or 1881?"Literacy came late to the Pacific Northwest. :) That said, the public library systems in King Co. and Seattle can't be beat.
Zeke wrote: "1981? or 1881?"Oops, sorry! 1881.
Phew. For a while there I couldn't tell if Thomas was serious or spoofing.
As I had mentioned in another post, Zeke, the main moderator for the Huck Finn discussion, has been putting in a tremendous amount of work getting ready for the discussion, which is going to be fantastic. We're doing something a bit different with this book. We will divide the book into three sections as is usual, with a week committed to each section and our usual no spoilers policy in effect. But then we will have two weeks of more topical discussions, with Zeke putting up threads for major topics in the book (feel free to suggest themes if you think there are any he missed) with detailed discussion on those themes and no concern about spoilers. Zeke will have more to say on this, but I wanted to give you a heads up as to the general format for this discussion, since it's a bit different from our usual format.
My very great thanks to Zeke for all the work he's putting into this book. Even the little bit I've seen so far makes me realize how much more there is in this book than I had initially believed; I'm really looking forward to seeing what this great group can do with it!
That discussion will start on November 9th; for the next two weeks I'll have what I think will be a thought provoking Interim Read, something you can read in fifteen minutes but has a tremendous amount of meat in it.
Everyman wrote: "As I had mentioned in another post, Zeke, the main moderator for the Huck Finn discussion, has been putting in a tremendous amount of work getting ready for the discussion, which is going to be fan..."Both reads sound great, looking forward to reading along with you. Sound like an interesting way to read a major read, looking forward to seeing the topics you pull out Zeke. This is becoming my favourite group.
A minor change in schedule for Huck Finn. Zeke will be traveling the day that the group was scheduled to start, and a few days thereafter, so we're starting the Huck Finn read a few days ahead of schedule so he can get it well underway before he leaves. The discussion will start on Monday, November 8th (might be posted the night before, if I remember to). The book will be divided into three parts, exact division still to be set but the middle section will be the longest, so we'll do one week for the first section, then 9 days for the second to get us back on our usual Wednesday-to-Tuesday schedule, then one week for the third, then the two weeks for discussion of the themes and related issues.
As I'm sure you're aware, this book raises certain controversies, particularly in the treatment of slavery and in some of its language. We've handled sensitive issues before in this group, so I'm confident we can handle these issues appropriately and look behind them to find the abiding values and meaning in the book. These areas of controversy are fair issues for commentary and discussion, but we do need to keep in mind that we should not unjustly judge a 19th century writer or book based on 21st century values.
Everyman wrote: "A minor change in schedule for Huck Finn. Zeke will be traveling the day that the group was scheduled to start, and a few days thereafter, so we're starting the Huck Finn read a few days ahead of ..."Looking forward to reading with you.
Classics and the Western Canon
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You are exactly right, Kate. I remember when I took my first semester courses in calculus and physics, I went to the library and found a copy of Newton's "The Principia" and just being blown away but what this great man had done. I certainly didn't 'read' it, but I did spend several hours slowly paging through it. This caused me to read a biography of Newton; and chase down information on Gottfried Leibniz who also concurrently, but independently, discovered 'the calculus'. Fascinating stuff!