Classics and the Western Canon discussion
General
>
Planning for our Next Major Read, part 4
Right now it's looking like a vote-off between The Magic Mountain, and Le Morte d'Arthur. But there's still time to get your votes in!
Hmmm, looks like there's no hope for The Red and the Black!
When does the vote end Everyman?
Kate wrote: "When does the vote end Everyman?"On the 14th. But I'm not sure whether GR rules make that the morning or evening of the 14th. But I'm sort of assuming midnight Eastern time, but don't wait 'till the last minute in case I'm wrong.
Well, I just shifted my vote to where my heart truly lies: Huckleberry Finn. Maybe its rising star will attract more votes. frankly, I am finding Aeschylus very tough going (due to inexperience) though the themes are wonderfully engaging. But, I think that six weeks from now, I am going to be ready for something that is fun, funny, engaging yet, also, significant. HF is all of these.
I also think we could benefit from having some of our perceptions of who/what Mark Twain is updated a bit.
I also think we could benefit from having some of our perceptions of who/what Mark Twain is updated a bit.
Oh no, I had hoped we'd read Virgil. I don't want to vote because I know that if La Morte wins, I simply won't have the time to read it because of school, but I really hope The Magic Mountain wins. I've already read it twice, but I'd be more than willing to read it again. To those who think that it'd be too demanding, I must say that it's really not that hard to finish because (in a good translation) the language is accessible and if you pick up on the, well, symbolism sounds really crude, on what Mann's trying do to, you'll find it a very engaging book. I'd go as far as to say that if read with the right mindset (and the right company) it's a page-turner since the second time I read it I finished it in under a week.
I'm dithering. I just changed my vote to Huckleberry Finn too. I think I need something easy and accessible after PL and Aeschylus. And I haven't read HF since high school, so definitely worth a revisit.
I'm still plumping for MM! After changing my vote twice, I better be . . . I'm really interested in the ways society views illness, and MM is classic in that regard.
Ok, I changed my mind and voted - I voted for Huck Finn as that is the only one I see myself participating in considering the time of year and other responsibilities.
So Huck is now a dark horse coming up fast on the outside. Will he make it into the top 2 by the end of voting? Or will Morte and Magic hold him off?
I could be willing to change my vote to Huckleberry Finn, there is no way I'm going to read MM now, all my time is spent studing for a Med test, and the date of the read is too close to the exam, which means my reading would be to down a minimum and more that ever an scape device, so I definitly don't want anything medicine realete. :s
I have Hunk Finn on my TBR shelves. It's been there for ages. If the group selected it, I would finally get to this classic.
Alias Reader; I have Hunk Finn on my TBR shelves. It's been there for ages. If the group selected it, I would finally get to this classic.
So vote already! (Is that what you mean by "lobbying" E-man?)
Seriously, I am getting nervous having championed this book. What if it wins and people hate it? On the other hand, it might be good to have a book that people panned. It would be interesting to see how individuals get beyond "I hate it" to "Here is why it fails on its own terms."
So vote already! (Is that what you mean by "lobbying" E-man?)
Seriously, I am getting nervous having championed this book. What if it wins and people hate it? On the other hand, it might be good to have a book that people panned. It would be interesting to see how individuals get beyond "I hate it" to "Here is why it fails on its own terms."
I don't know that you need to worry about people hating it, though, Zeke. I think many of us read it when much younger and are interested in re-reading or re-discovering it now as an adult. And, if they do hate it, I think this group has members of the type to say more "Here is why if fails" than simply "I hate it." :)
Yes, Patrice. And it is the autobiography he would have left if not for outside pressures. Lots of good literary gossip about it already. Should be very interesting. I think that any discussion of HF would productively divert also to Mark Twain's views on other contemporary matters.
By the way, do folks all know why it is incorrect to cite his name as "Twain?"
By the way, do folks all know why it is incorrect to cite his name as "Twain?"
I'm a Huck Finn vote, too. I was intrigued for a while by the opportunity to get the great support of this group to help me access Morte--something I doubt I'd try on my own. But I'll confess I was intimidated by the descriptions of the available editions of Le Morte d'Arthur. Certainly this group could help me access what I fear would often seem inaccessible. But I guess I'm relishing the thought of a mature, thorough approach to Huckleberry Finn that this group would pursue. Like others have posted, I'm anxious to see all the nuance and texture that I missed during my youthful attempt decades ago.
Zeke wrote: "By the way, do folks all know why it is incorrect to cite his name as "Twain?" ..."Are you referring to the fact that "Mark Twain" was a pen name, not his actual name? What was it - Samuel Clemens, or something like that, right? There's another part of his name I think I'm forgetting...
Samuel Clemens was his given name, and Mark Twain his pen name. But "Mark" is a verb modifying "Twain," the rope used to test the depth of the water. Thus, to call him, only, "Twain" is insufficient. There are many aspects of this American writer that go beyond the surface.
I should have known it wasn't as easy as how I answered! :)
Zeke wrote: "Samuel Clemens was his given name, and Mark Twain his pen name. But "Mark" is a verb modifying "Twain," the rope used to test the depth of the water. Thus, to call him, only, "Twain" is insufficien..."
I always thought "twain" was the 2 fathom mark, which was minimum sounding depth for riverboat clearance. So a boatman would say "mark twain" to let the captain know he'd measured (marked) the depth at 2 (fathoms).
I always thought "twain" was the 2 fathom mark, which was minimum sounding depth for riverboat clearance. So a boatman would say "mark twain" to let the captain know he'd measured (marked) the depth at 2 (fathoms).
Kate: could well be. As I've intimated, the depths of this author may well be worth our exploration.
Zeke wrote: "Kate: could well be. As I've intimated, the depths of this author may well be worth our exploration."
Fascinating guy. He was a qualified river boat pilot on the Mississippi. The first half of his "Life on the Mississippi" is incredibly interesting and covers his life as a young man on the river boats, right at the end of that era. I burned out on the second half which is more a retrospective on how river life had changed written from the perspective of an older man. But the first half is story telling at its finest.
Fascinating guy. He was a qualified river boat pilot on the Mississippi. The first half of his "Life on the Mississippi" is incredibly interesting and covers his life as a young man on the river boats, right at the end of that era. I burned out on the second half which is more a retrospective on how river life had changed written from the perspective of an older man. But the first half is story telling at its finest.
Zeke wrote: "Seriously, I am getting nervous having championed this book. What if it wins and people hate it? On the other hand, it might be good to have a book that people panned. "Well, since you're probably going to be tagged to co-moderate the discussion if it wins, you can make sure it's a success.
And I think it will be our first book that is on the Frequently Banned Books list. Will Goodreads require us to get parental authorization for any members under the age of 18?
Zeke wrote: "By the way, do folks all know why it is incorrect to cite his name as "Twain?" "Presumably because mark twain is a phrase, not a name?
And it's Huck coming up fast on the outside, Magic is fading fast, it's turning into a two horse race, Morte is still holding onto first place but he's losing ground to Huck. Will Magic have the strength to come back, or is it going to the Morte and Huck at the wire? Will it be a photo finish??? Still 2 furlongs to go, anything can happen!
I've conceded that Stendahl is unlikely to win and have switched to Huckleberry Finn. I first read this when I was nine years old and loved it.
Hmm, what a tough decision! ;)Huck Finn
Pros: Haven't read it in the last 20 years or so. Remember it as a fun, humorous read. Interesting to reread again after so many years.
Cons: Have read it. Would be able to reread it by myself, without any group support.
Le Morte d'Arthur
Pros: Haven't read it, would probably not be able to tackle it without group support. Curious about the original source for the Arthurian legends.
Cons: The length (various editions between 500 to 1,000 plus pages). Medieval prose that has been described as "soporific". Not sure if have the stamina to finish.
*fidgets*
For how long is the poll open??? And how big a margin is necessary so there is not a re-vote?
All right, I'm back in the saddle for Magic Mountain. Keep in mind I haven't read it- this is all from reading reviews/criticism. This is considered perhaps THE most influential 20th-century German novel. While I am most interested in the themes of illness and health, the main character, who is an allegorical Everyman, is exposed to a wide array of philosophical thought on his little mountain, which will give us wonderful fodder for discussion. Time and its passage is also considered a central theme- relevant to everyone! Oh, also there's sex.
There are with this novel, as with everything these days, new and modern translations that read more smoothly than translations you might remember from previous readings.
Less soporific than Malory! And you are less likely to have read it than Huck Finn! Definitely a stimulating intellectual challenge! Vote for MM!
Whew. I think THAT'S lobbying.
I'm going to go in for Huck. It's an hilarious tale. And I think Twain's satire in it might have something we can apply to today. Plus it's been a while since I've read this favorite.
Patrice wrote: "I probably won't have time to participate so I'm not voting and probably shouldn't say a thing. I'm just curious, has anyone not read Huck Finn? I'm not sure that you can get through school in A..."
I never had to read this in school. Neither did either of my sons. I think it's one of those books everyone assumes you've been assigned somewhere along the line, so teachers try to pick something else more "current". LOL.
Most people do read this when they are school aged (I think I might have been 11). It would be interesting to see it through adult eyes and see how much of our perceptions of this book change.
I never had to read this in school. Neither did either of my sons. I think it's one of those books everyone assumes you've been assigned somewhere along the line, so teachers try to pick something else more "current". LOL.
Most people do read this when they are school aged (I think I might have been 11). It would be interesting to see it through adult eyes and see how much of our perceptions of this book change.
David wrote: "I've conceded that Stendahl is unlikely to win and have switched to Huckleberry Finn.
I did the same; poor Stendhal is down to one vote after we both jumped ship! But I'd love to re-read Huck Finn.
I did the same; poor Stendhal is down to one vote after we both jumped ship! But I'd love to re-read Huck Finn.
Patrice wrote: "I probably won't have time to participate so I'm not voting and probably shouldn't say a thing. I'm just curious, has anyone not read Huck Finn? I'm not sure that you can get through school in A..."
By 'England' I presume you refer to the United Kingdom as a whole? No, I don't think it is universal reading here. I was given a copy of both Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn when I was quite small, eight or nine I think, and I am pretty sure few of my school friends ever read it. my father who taught English in Grammar School was a great fan of Mark Twain and that is presumably why I was encouraged to read it at an early age.
An interesting thing is both these books, like "Treasure Island' and 'Black Beauty' were considered books specifically for children. I'm not at all sure that that continues to hold true.
By 'England' I presume you refer to the United Kingdom as a whole? No, I don't think it is universal reading here. I was given a copy of both Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn when I was quite small, eight or nine I think, and I am pretty sure few of my school friends ever read it. my father who taught English in Grammar School was a great fan of Mark Twain and that is presumably why I was encouraged to read it at an early age.
An interesting thing is both these books, like "Treasure Island' and 'Black Beauty' were considered books specifically for children. I'm not at all sure that that continues to hold true.
I've decided to change my vote from Stendhal to Twain. I'm intrigued at the notion that it's a rip-off of DQ.I stumbled upon The awful German language /Die schreckliche deutsche Sprache while searching for a downloadable version of Huck and Twain made me lol.
With apologies to those who have lobbied for the other candidates. ; )
Penny wrote: "For how long is the poll open??? And how big a margin is necessary so there is not a re-vote?"1. Through the 14th. But I don't know when on the 14th Goodreads will close it -- that's up to their policies.
2. It's entirely subjective with me. That said, basically my view is that if there are enough votes for other books to have a reasonable likelihood of changing the outcome between the top books, I'll do a follow-up. It it's unlikely that a revote would result in a different winner, I'll save us all the trouble.
Right now, there are 12 votes for Huck, 10 votes for Morte, and 11 other votes. Clearly those other votes could change the outcome between Huck and Morte, so if the poll closed now, there would be a run-off.
If most of those other voters were to switch their votes to one of the leaders, things might become clearer. (Or, we might just get into a flat out tie!) But I certainly don't encourage anybody to abandon a book they would really like to read just to avoid a run-off. If they want to change their minds, that's fine. But like Cubs fans, sometimes you just have to be resigned to loving a loser, but that doesn't mean you turn your back on them.
Patrice wrote: "I was so impressed with Mark Twain's genius. Then I read Don Quixote and realized that he'd ripped off much of Huck from Cervantes! I still think Mark Twain is a genius for turning Don Quixote into the great "American" novel. "If Huck wins, you can bet I'll be asking you a lot about that insight!
Personally, I would love to dig into the philosophical insights of the Magic Mountain, but unless I can do a rapid and very effective lobbying campaign, it's not going to happen this time.
Everyman wrote: "Patrice wrote: "I was so impressed with Mark Twain's genius. Then I read Don Quixote and realized that he'd ripped off much of Huck from Cervantes! I still think Mark Twain is a genius for turning ..."
I'm really tempted to say "keep this list and revote it next time". Most of the books on it are ones I'd like to read at some point. And I'll freely admit that my choice for Huck was dictated by two pretty heavy reads already and doing this next one during the holidays. In deep midwinter my choice would have been different.
I'm really tempted to say "keep this list and revote it next time". Most of the books on it are ones I'd like to read at some point. And I'll freely admit that my choice for Huck was dictated by two pretty heavy reads already and doing this next one during the holidays. In deep midwinter my choice would have been different.
Patrice wrote: "One thing for certain, if you want to study the philosophical underpinnings of Huck Finn, read Rousseau.I'm having trouble remembering the exact title. Something like "The Origins of Inequality in Society"."
In the Great Books edition, it's "A Dissertation on the Origin and Foundation of the Inequality of Mankind." I wish I had time and eyesight to read it, but I need to be husbanding both, sadly.
Patrice wrote: "I wish I knew how to provide links ..."It's easy. There are two ways.
One: Just copy the URL from your browser window and paste it into your comment window. Voila.
Two: The slightly more sophisticated way is to use HTML. Once you've done it a few time, it becomes automatic and easy.
I keep the basic format in a WordPerfect file and just copy and paste it in when I need to use it.
The basic format is this:
{A HREF="mywebpage.html"}My Web Page{/A}
mportant: Replace the { with < and the } with >. I had to substitute them, or else GR would have interpreted them as HTML code and not printed them for you to see.
So put that into a word processing file of some sort and save it for future use. Then when you need to provide a link, paste it into your Goodreads comment window, then
1) use copy and paste to replace
mywebpage.html
with the URL from your browser window (or type it in) (Leave the quotation marks alone, just replace the text)
2. replace
My Web Page
with whatever words you want to use to identify the link,
3. Click on preview (right beside the post button), click on the link text in the preview window, and it should bring up the link correctly.
Voila! It sounds complicated, but once you have the basic format in your wordprocessor and have done it a few times, it's very quick.
An example.
Starting with the format from above:
{A HREF="mywebpage.html"}My Web Page{/A}
replacing mywebpage.html with the code for theWestern Canon Group, which is
http://www.goodreads.com/group/show/1...
replacing My Web Page with
Classics and the Western Canon
here's how it looks so far:
{A HREF="http://www.goodreads.com/group/show/1..."} Classics and the Western Canon(/A)
and then replacing the curly brackets with the angle brackets, here's how the link comes out.
Classics and the Western Canon
Note: I left the curly brackets in until the end so you could see how it looked, but when you actually use it, put the angle brackets in the copy in your document file and forget that there ever were curly brackets involved. I used those only because I had to to makeit show up.
You can try it in a sample post. Open a comment, follow the instructions above, then click on the preview to make sure you did it right. They just don't click on the post button and it will all go away but you will know you did it right.
Last ditch effort for Magic Mountain: Come ON! What other disease spurs such fabulous artistry as TB? Witness: "Fully Sick," the consumptive rapper.
I'm not sick, but I'm sick sick
and
Life in Quarantine
and many more.
S. Rosemary wrote: "Last ditch effort for Magic Mountain: Come ON! What other disease spurs such fabulous artistry as TB? Witness: "Fully Sick," the consumptive rapper.
I'm not sick, but I'm sick sick
and
Life ..."
Still seems a little depressing. Read a biography of the Brontes, or Keats and you can get the same sad feeling. Good luck with your lobbying effort though. ;-)
Huck is moving ahead. If he gets much further ahead, I may decide to declare him a winner without a vote-off. So those who want Le Morte had better do some fast lobbying!Personally, I'm going to stick with Magic Mountain, since I think it would be a great read, but it's unlikely to zip up to second place. But if it loses, so be it.
Hello. I'm sorry for sounding a bit thick, but I still don't understand why so many people on this list are going on holiday at the end of October - or why this is pertinent to the next read. On the subject of Huck Finn - it's quite a good read, but I really don't think it's a book that anyone needs to spend more than a couple of weeks on. It's not the great American novel, is it? Wouldn't that be Moby-Dick?
(Commence discussion of The Great American Novel...)
Kathy wrote: "Hello. I'm sorry for sounding a bit thick, but I still don't understand why so many people on this list are going on holiday at the end of October - or why this is pertinent to the next read.
On..."
LOL Kathy, I don't think anyone thinks Huck will take a long time. But both Mallory and Mann would be several months of reading in this group.
Don Quixote, Les Miserables, and Paradise Lost were all scheduled for 12 weeks. I'm assuming either Morte or Magic Mountain would require the same. 12 weeks from the middle of September is the middle of December. For me, middle of November through the end of the year gets really busy with other commitments, so I don't want to have to shoe horn in a complex book at the same time.
On..."
LOL Kathy, I don't think anyone thinks Huck will take a long time. But both Mallory and Mann would be several months of reading in this group.
Don Quixote, Les Miserables, and Paradise Lost were all scheduled for 12 weeks. I'm assuming either Morte or Magic Mountain would require the same. 12 weeks from the middle of September is the middle of December. For me, middle of November through the end of the year gets really busy with other commitments, so I don't want to have to shoe horn in a complex book at the same time.
Kathy wrote: "Hello. I'm sorry for sounding a bit thick, but I still don't understand why so many people on this list are going on holiday at the end of October - or why this is pertinent to the next read. On..."
[sotto voce 'I couldn't agree more, Kathy.']
I'm new in this group, skipping the Orestia because I read it a few years ago. But I am looking forward to at least reading alongside y'all and looking over shoulders as you figure these books out, even if grad school prevents too much participation. I'm one of the votes for Virgil because I love the Divine Comedy and have always wanted to see what Dante loved so much in Virgil. Come on! Virgil!
But, ugh, I hated Huck Finn and I definitely won't partake if Finn wins. I would try to keep up with Malory though and he'll be my runoff vote.
Patrice wrote: "LOL! Is it really Moby-dick? I've never read Moby-Dick!"Boy does that bring back memories. Laurel thinks Moby Dick is truly great. (I think I remember her saying that several times -- sorry if I misrepresented you, Laurel!) I have tried it several times and never been able to get through it.
So there you have pretty much opposite views from the group moderators. You pays your money and you takes your chances!
It's getting closer. Come on, Magic Mountain -- move your [insert Eliza Doolittle Ascot Opening Day cry].BTW, I thought that the poll told you when you went to it when it ended, but I see it doesn't on the face. You have to click on Comments and Details, and then it will tell you who set it up, when it started, and when it ends. But I still don't know what time on the end day it actually ends.
Gotta say I think that the number of people who want to read Huck Finn because they've ALREADY READ it is a bit surprising.Come on! Let's hit the virgin territory. Has anyone read Malory? If not, let's take a punt.
Classics and the Western Canon
Books mentioned in this topic
Personal Recollections Of Joan Of Arc By The Sieur Louis De Conte (other topics)Die schreckliche deutsche Sprache (other topics)
King Arthur's Death: Morte Arthure and Le Morte Arthur (other topics)
King Arthur's Death: Morte Arthure and Le Morte Arthur (other topics)
The Romance of Arthur: An Anthology of Medieval Texts in Translation (other topics)
More...
I realize that my earlier posts may have been a bit heavy-handed in my concerns about Le Morte. As long as people know what they're getting in for, and are ready to tackle it, we'll have a great time together. (It's also the case, as Zeke points out, that Magic Mountain may also be a challenging read.)
So either of our leaders, if chosen, will require some commitment. But isn't that true of anything worthwhile in life? And what could be more challenging, after all, than DonQ, LesMis, and Paradise Lost, each of which we had great times reading and discussing together. So let the voting proceed and may the best book for the most people win.