Terminalcoffee discussion
Rants / Debates (Serious)
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Religion just fucks things up (or does it?!!) > read and decide > the very interesting discussion :)
Lobstergirl wrote: "I may have to attack you for maligning Puritans..."As well you should. Cotton Mather was fascinating and had a totally cool name.
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Larry wrote: "When you come across a jerk named Joe who's a religious zealot, it's like a perfect storm."Precisely.
Lobstergirl wrote: "Then there's Increase Mather....such an underutilized name today. I wish it would come back in fashion."And what about Shemp, the forgotten Mather?
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And what about Shemp, the forgotten Mather?"
And Jerry "Beaver" Mather...
I have an ancestor named Supream Smith, August 16, 1737, Litchfield, CT.
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"
That's exactly what Elizabeth Shue's hair looked like in Cocktail.
Lobstergirl wrote: "That's exactly what Elizabeth Shue's hair looked like in Cocktail."Amen, sister.
Barb wrote: "Phil is too nice to suggest you stink up any neighborhood..."Phil is nice, Barb. And so are you. I certainly wouldn't go into this knotty subject with you if I thought otherwise.
BunWat wrote: "Well really, I'm having some difficulty coming up with something people haven't used as an excuse to be mean to each other at some point. Maybe custard."Sometimes the lines at kopp's custard get way long and people get testy....
And God (heh) help them if they run out of the flavor of the day....
Gabby81 wrote: "The problem is not with the religions , it is with us the followers who misinterprete and misuse the religion for our own sakes. In the simplest form , the religion provides a set of guiding princi..."Sorry, but i can't agree the problem is with 'misinterpretation'; if you are picking and choosing which of the tenets of a religion to follow (which is precisely what the majority of believers do), then it is not the religion which provides morality but wider society and the 'internal moral compass' referred to before.
Yes, there is some kernel of religion which is about moral guidance, but it is also quickly becomes about control and power. Perhaps then the problem isn't religion per se, but the fact that it encourages (or, in some cases) demands a worldview based on faith before reason makes it a force that so easily lends itself to manipulation and corruption.
Paul wrote: "if you are picking and choosing which of the tenets of a religion to follow (which is precisely what the majority of believers do), then it is not the religion which provides morality but wider society and the 'internal moral compass' referred to before...."This seems to suggest that any act of free will, individuality, or personal conscience is inherently incompatible with a sincere practice of, belief in, or curiosity about any religion anywhere in the world, which makes perfect sense if you define religion as rigid, narrow-minded dogmatism. And I can see how that would quickly lead one to discount any influence of religion in the existing norms of the wider society or the moral compass that comes with being part of that society.
But this seems to ignore the role that various religions have played in the development of culture and society over time and looks at the world we inhabit in a more-or-less a-historical way. Just on a professional level--I write about history--this makes me uneasy.
Likewise, the idea that faith and reason are wildly antithetical makes sense if you take certain examples (and I think we could all name some egregious ones) and turn them into a dramatically more important factor than they really are. Most people who care about these things manage, in my experience, to navigate faith and reason pretty well without becoming farcically anti-intellectual or beholden to corrupt and manipulative forces.
In any event, I do agree with what you're saying about religion being a force all too easily abused by the unscrupulous. It's a sound observation, and one with a long and distinguished cultural history. But when Shakespeare said that the devil can cite scripture for his own purpose, he was warning against duplicity, not against faith.
my christianity has nothing to do with religion
Kevin "El Liso Grande" wrote: "my christianity has nothing to do with religion"Thankfully that has become much more prevalent over the last few years.
I heard something on NPR yesterday that asserted the anti-Mosque, anti-Muslim forces are starting to sound a bit like some Germans before world war II concerning the Jewish faith. Now, normally I might dismiss that as hyperbole, but then the story pointed out that there are anti-mosque controversies not just in NY but across the country. So while I like to think history won't repeat itself...I think it could, and that scares the hell out of me. Still, and I think this is important, I've heard multiple news stories about Christians and Christian organizations denouncing anti-Muslim efforts.
Jonathan wrote: "In any event, I do agree with what you're saying about religion being a force all too easily abused by the unscrupulous. It's a sound observation, and one with a long and distinguished cultural history."And because of the emotional nature of spirituality (people ready to follow their heart rather than their mind), there is a never-ending stream of assholes ready to step up and lead the faithful to ruin.
Phil wrote: "And because of the emotional nature of spirituality (people ready to follow their heart rather than their mind), there is a never-ending stream of assholes ready to step up and lead the faithful to ruin..."Same could be said about love and romance too--doesn't make those bad things.
In any case, the idea that emotion--let alone spiritual consciousness--precludes rational thought is hyperbolic.
No. I've never been to a revival. But I saw one in "Borat."
OOH, I have! With a call and everything! It was in Murfreesboro, TN. We went to a white revival. I wanted to go to a black Baptist revival, but my Aunt Chris told me they were segregated.
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White and black Baptists do sometimes/often worship separately, but not always, and it depends where you are. I've been to many evenly mixed services as well as services where there were just a handful of whites in the congregation. Sometimes a formerly all-white neighborhood will become predominantly black, but the elderly white church members will stay on until there aren't any left.
Just to name a few, I love Barb, Jonathon, Phil and all the comments above. AMEN! hahahaBut seriously, how can any one person or religious group possibly know that 'their way' is the only way? Live on this planet with or without faith (in whatever God you want), be a good, respectful person and allow others to the same. There is no place for judgement and exclusion regardless of religion. Anyone who believes their way is the ONLY way, really is misguided, but I respect them enough to have their own beliefs, just don't try and impose them on me.
*hopping of soapbox*
don't want to judge you but don't you mean *hopping OFF soapbox*:) jk
i will say this, we have to believe our way is the only way or the foundational truths of our beliefs are shattered. we get this via our source of truth which is the bible. in john 14:6 it says "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." so we believe that the only path to heaven is through Jesus. now i believe that the way to convince someone of your faith is not to show them that they are wrong but to convince them that you are right not so much by words but by love in action and living in a way that people want to know more about how you believe. as for being judgmental, i try not to be as i am humbled by my own sin and failure and know that if i can't love people where they are than how can i expect God to love me where i am. just wanted to let you guys know how i believe
Just curious as I admire your dedication and conviction . . . what happens to all the Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Aboriginal people who have never heard of Jesus (just to name a few other religions/ non religions) ? All go to Hell, and have for thousands and thousands of years and all those prior to Jesus went to Hell? Can there be anyroom left ;) . I am just saying I am open to everyone having the right to have steadfast beliefs of their own but not to judge anyone (ie: insinuate they are not a good or an eternally worthy person) if they do not believe the same thing I do.
My compass: . . . How could I personally say what is right for EVERYONE! Good, respectful people who live wholesome lives are not deemed to eternal damnation because they do not follow exactly what some people insist is the only way. Just me, I believe in Freedom of choice and a God who loves everyone.
Mama always said don't talk money, politics or religion ;) Ok ;) *hoppin oFF my soapbox* :D
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Eloquently said, Kevin.
I am with you Cambridge, but I am not prepared to stand on the soapbox to state my case because I am a big chicken.
I am however prepared to stand behind you and offer support.
I am however prepared to stand behind you and offer support.
I think religion is and should be a very personal relationship with one's God. I do not believe in evangelizing, but rather by living with compassion and humility. Kevin really hit the nail on the head "now i believe that the way to convince someone of your faith is not to show them that they are wrong but to convince them that you are right not so much by words but by love in action and living in a way that people want to know more about how you believe. as for being judgmental, i try not to be as i am humbled by my own sin and failure and know that if i can't love people where they are than how can i expect God to love me where i am"
thanks Kevin
Ms Petra you make a huge point of mine!!!! "religion is and should be a very personal relationship with one's God."
I could not agree more!
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Far from Ground Zero, other plans for mosques run into vehement opposition
MURFREESBORO, TENN. -- For more than 30 years, the Muslim community in this Nashville suburb has worshipped quietly in a variety of makeshift spaces -- a one-bedroom apartment, an office behind a Lube Express -- attracting little notice even after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.
But when the community's leaders proposed a 52,900-square-foot Islamic center with a school and a swimming pool this year, the vehement backlash from their neighbors caught them by surprise. Opponents crowded county meetings and held a noisy protest in the town square that drew hundreds, some carrying signs such as "Keep Tennessee Terror Free."
The Islamic Center of Murfreesboro became a hot-button political issue during this month's primary election, prompting failed Republican gubernatorial candidate Ron Ramsey to ask whether Islam was a "cult."
Evangelist Pat Robertson weighed in Thursday, wondering on his television program whether a Muslim takeover of America was imminent and whether local officials could be bribed.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/...
I remember a few days after 9/11, I had placed a big order at the lumber yard (I was working as a contractor at that time), and I ended up hitching a ride back to the job site on the delivery truck, in the cab, up front, with the driver. He had the radio news on. This was the day that George Bush had that interdenominational prayer service at the White House with an imam, several ministers, a priest, a rabbi, etc. The newscaster was commenting that there was a fear of reprisals against American Muslims because of the attack.
The driver, a bright guy whom I knew a little--he was just temping at the yard while working on his certification to drive big rigs across the country--he said to me, "You know, it sure is going to be hard for those people from now on."
He was right. And it's a shame.
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"What I sense is a certain amount of fear fueling the animosity," said Jim Daniel, a former county commissioner and former county Republican Party chairman, sitting down for lunch one day last week at City Cafe. Residents worry that "the Muslims coming in here will keep growing in numbers and override our system of law and impose sharia law," the strict code of conduct based on the Koran.
Sounds like some people might need a civics class.
Jonathan wrote: "Still? That sucks."Jonathan, this was back when Jimmy Carter was president, so things may have changed since then. Though when we went to mass in Clarksdale, Mississippi, around 1993, we went first to the all-white Catholic church, which was OK, then the next Sunday to the all-black Catholic church, which had an amazing priest and a way better choir. The priest told everyone that they had visitors today from Iowa (as if we were not obvious enough) and told everyone that they WERE to make this family feel WELCOME. And then, the priest told everyone that my husband was a volunteer all month at the Children's Clinic and WASN'T that just KIND of this family to GIVE in this way to our community. He had kind of a booming, commanding voice. It was a very welcoming place.
Cambridge wrote: "Just curious as I admire your dedication and conviction . . . what happens to all the Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Aboriginal people who have never heard of Jesus (just to name a few other religions/ no..."and in this lies one of the very hardest things about my faith. this is the topic of a book called:
The God Who Risks: A Theology of Divine Providence
by John Sanders
i discussed this book at great length with a good friend while on a long flight to san diego. the question of how a loving God can condemn so many people. to be honest with you, i don't know. it is one of the largest conflicts within the evangelical christian beliefs. one of the problems is how we view justice and right. imagine telling a newly converted tribesman who is genuinely excited about the prospect of going to heaven, that his father, who died one day before you arrived with this message of salvation, has no chance of going to heaven. was it his fault that he had not heard the gospel? of course not. i still struggle with this all the time. the only recourse i have is reading the bible and trying to understand that this same God who i trust in also makes the rules.
most christians don't even discuss this because it leaves them wide open for attacks on their beliefs. i just wish i had a better answer for this. i don't. sorry.
also i would like to say that i appreciate everyone's opinions and hope that mine are taken in the spirit of friendship. usually i am flip and trivial on TC trying to be humorous and fun. as for my faith i have tried to follow the words of St. Francis of Assisi: “Preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary use words.”
blessings
Kevin "El Liso Grande" wrote: "also i would like to say that i appreciate everyone's opinions and hope that mine are taken in the spirit of friendship."
well said Kevin. i don't intend to offend with my opinions - i just enjoy a good discussion - but am aware that i can come across as opinionated. i always believe that, if you're going to judge people, it should be on how they behave rather than their reasons for that behaviour, if that makes any sense.
One way to address the ultimate end of all those pre-christian souls is to follow the mormons and baptize them posthumously.I think it's horribly offensive and insulting, my mom thinks "no harm done" and the mormons think, "I'm doing god's work."
Mr Grande :) Let me start by saying I hope you in no way you took my questions as an attack. I genuinely appreciate your commitment and dedication to your faith. I asked because, as a Christian myself (albeit not Evangelical, just a good ole East Coast ''calisthenics protestant" :), that particular issue has smoldered away at me and I have been curious how those who are steadfast in the 'all or nothing' do address this. Thank you so much for your honesty and candor and I truly hope you did not take any of what I had to say as jugemental or incendiary just purely quizzical and genuinely interested.
Like you I try to avoid intense topics on here, not that I don't enjoy them, but I do prefer to share fun, easy banter on here for some smart fun and laughs throughout my day. *thank you, and make up hug?* :)
That said . . . cheers to all the good loving people on this planet, I am just happy to be among you. :)
Just been a very interesting edition of Beyond Belief on BBC Radio 4 (my apologies if this link doesn't work internationally) about the views of various religions on disability.http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00tg1c9
I always try to listen to this show, because the subject of religion does fascinate me, perhaps because it is so alien to my psychology.
all kidding aside, i take no offense to anyone's opinion or thoughts. i love how we have all been able to express ourselves in this thread with intelligence, thoughtfulness and honesty.just was thinking about it and i don't want to persuade you to be like me. i want to you to see in me something different and want to be like that
Barb wrote: "Kevin "El Liso Grande" wrote: " i want to you to see in me something different..."
Like stilettos and a fruit hat?"
Or bubble bath and flower petals in the bath tub?
Like stilettos and a fruit hat?"
Or bubble bath and flower petals in the bath tub?
*pssssst I am pretty sure you would have to "check" the fruit hat, stilettos and flower petals in your bath at the pearly gates . . . * ;) *tongue in cheek, just messing with you Grande* I too really dig everyone's openness :)
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Books mentioned in this topic
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark (other topics)The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark (other topics)
The Science of Premonitions: How Knowing the Future Can Help Us Avoid Danger, Maximize Opportunities, and Cre ate a Better Life (other topics)
Einstein's God: Conversations About Science and the Human Spirit (other topics)
That's all true. But to som..."
I may have to attack you for maligning Puritans.