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Reading Schedule AND Discussion Q's! ~ The Knitting Circle *possible spoilers*
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Tera, First Chick
(last edited Jul 22, 2008 12:45AM)
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Jul 22, 2008 12:19AM
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I agree with you Tera. When my my brother, my sister-in-law, and my 3 year old niece were killed in an accident, I felt bitter the year she would have started pre-school. All she ever wanted to do was go to school. She already had a backpack and lunch kit her and her mom would sometimes pack her a lunch. That August, they had all kinds of cute dresses, shirts, and pants that would have been adorable on her - especially Winnie the Pooh. She loved Pooh. I couldn't go into the store that year without crying. I hated all the cute clothes.Maybe that is a little different because my bitterness was toward the clothes and the store and makers for having them instead of people buying them.
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They turn to escape and for reassurance that they can feel something other than grief if even for a moment.
Honestly I think Mary is more unforgiveable than Dylan was. Dylan tried and reached out for her so many times and in so many ways. Dylan had to deal with the loss just as Mary did but it seemed Dylan had to deal with the extra loss of watching his wife leave him before his very eyes despite his best attempts. Mary left their relationship long before Dylan did. She had an affair with her own greif that consumed her to the point of issolation and disregard to her relationship with her husband.
They both were with other people not out of love or anger or deciet or intent to hurt the other but I believe to feel. Escaping even for a moment with someone that doesnt remind you of pain of someone that doesnt look at you and see sadness of someone that feels good to be around that offers joy without pain is a temptation hard to resist when the alternative is misery.
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How do you think Mary would've reacted to Holly's baby in the beginning of the novel versus how she did toward's the end?
Does Mary's finally telling of how Stella passed away signify a full recovery from her loss?
I don't think I can use the word "recovery" when considering the grief of losing a child. You dont 'recover' from that. You go on. You cope. You learn (hopefully) to love and laugh again. I don't know that you can recover from that. However, i do think the knitting circle was essential in providing her with a way out of her consuming grief. I believe sharing her story was a way to get through some of her pain but I dont think it made her recover from it. Holly's baby because it was a boy and because of the time helped Mary I don't know that she would have handled it well earlier.
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Dylan? I think I connected with him because I understand the desire to want to feel something other than pain and grief. I understand wanting a relationship with anyone that doesn't take effort that isnt work that makes you feel good about yourself simply because you dont have to remember yourself. I think I got Dylan. I liked the other characters and really enjoyed the book but I really liked Dylan and wanted him happy in the end.
I think you hit it right on the head here in respect to self-indulgence. Not knowing the pain of losing a child (and no one should have to go through that) one will not understand the time consuming grief and the inability to deal with he world Everyone deals with grief differently and because of that the statistics of divorce is extremely high in griefstricken households. Self indulgence is not a good word here to describe how your world is ripped apart and thrown upside withot making any sense to reality. It is the same as dealing with people who are deeply depressed. It rules you, not you it. You only know if you are dealing with your grief when it is consuming you 24 hours a day. You know if you have 10 minutes or an hour in a day when you are not thinking about it that you are just beginning to make sense of the world again.
I read the book in three days! It was amazing but so very very sad! I can not think of another book that made me cry this much!
I related so much to Mary! (maybe because we have the same name and the same strange thing of not being called Mary in our family.. I am Mary but called Katie... my Mom was a Mary but called 'J' just like that in quotes always! My Mom lost two children. One at the age of 6 almost 7 my sister Diane, and then my brother John who never left the hospital and died a few weeks after he was born. My mother never had the luxury to grieve like Mary. She had at least 6 other children to look after. The death of my brother and sister tore my parents apart. Though they did manage to stay married for 35 years!
I also relate to Mary because like her I met my husband late in life. We are blessed to have one beautiful little girl, who is 5 and just finished kindergarten! But we could not have another child. I live in fear of what if something happened to her.. I don't think I could cope as well as Mary... and I am sure I would leave my huband because we do not deal with grief the same way at all and I would not be able to handle it!
If you are NOT a knitter, based on what you've read here in The Knitting Circle, what is it about the activity that makes it so theraputic?
I have always wanted to knit but living in the Caribbean it seems pointless! Maybe I will take up crocheting I learned it when I was a child! I think the reason it is thearputic is because it is repetive and you have to concentrate! For me baking bread and cookies are like that. When my Mom passed away 18 months ago.. I came home and baked non-stop for a month! I won't even tell you how much weight I gained! Knitting would have been so much better.
Though each women's loss is different in the book and their reactions to their loss are different, what do they hold in common w/one another? How does such different types of loss bring them together?
I think it is their stories. I think we all have stories and we find friendships.. real true friendships in unlikely places because of shared experiences and shared stories. I take a pottery class and one night there was a small group and we were all talking about death and loss, it was such a bonding moment, then the next week there were more people and the moment was gone. I think it is hard to maintain that bond! I also think that they are very generous to allow new people in I think I would want to close the circle and not take the risk of ruining it!Finally I think if all of their losses were the same, the loss of a child, they would not be able to relate to each other so well.. because they can both give and recieve sympathy and emapathy.
Can you relate to Mary's reacting to others w/feeling of envy and bitterness at their good fortunes?
Yes, I think I would feel that way but would NEVER let anyone know it, and would struggle to over come it!
Do you feel Mary was too self-indulgent or self centered when it came to going through and emerging from her grief? If, so, why?
No I believe she is allowed to do whatever it takes!
To whom did you connect w/most in the novel and why? Mary, Mamie, Alice, Scarlet, Beth, LuLu, Harriet or Ellen?
Mary... I think I would have reacted much in the same way she did!
I related so much to Mary! (maybe because we have the same name and the same strange thing of not being called Mary in our family.. I am Mary but called Katie... my Mom was a Mary but called 'J' just like that in quotes always! My Mom lost two children. One at the age of 6 almost 7 my sister Diane, and then my brother John who never left the hospital and died a few weeks after he was born. My mother never had the luxury to grieve like Mary. She had at least 6 other children to look after. The death of my brother and sister tore my parents apart. Though they did manage to stay married for 35 years!
I also relate to Mary because like her I met my husband late in life. We are blessed to have one beautiful little girl, who is 5 and just finished kindergarten! But we could not have another child. I live in fear of what if something happened to her.. I don't think I could cope as well as Mary... and I am sure I would leave my huband because we do not deal with grief the same way at all and I would not be able to handle it!
If you are NOT a knitter, based on what you've read here in The Knitting Circle, what is it about the activity that makes it so theraputic?
I have always wanted to knit but living in the Caribbean it seems pointless! Maybe I will take up crocheting I learned it when I was a child! I think the reason it is thearputic is because it is repetive and you have to concentrate! For me baking bread and cookies are like that. When my Mom passed away 18 months ago.. I came home and baked non-stop for a month! I won't even tell you how much weight I gained! Knitting would have been so much better.
Though each women's loss is different in the book and their reactions to their loss are different, what do they hold in common w/one another? How does such different types of loss bring them together?
I think it is their stories. I think we all have stories and we find friendships.. real true friendships in unlikely places because of shared experiences and shared stories. I take a pottery class and one night there was a small group and we were all talking about death and loss, it was such a bonding moment, then the next week there were more people and the moment was gone. I think it is hard to maintain that bond! I also think that they are very generous to allow new people in I think I would want to close the circle and not take the risk of ruining it!Finally I think if all of their losses were the same, the loss of a child, they would not be able to relate to each other so well.. because they can both give and recieve sympathy and emapathy.
Can you relate to Mary's reacting to others w/feeling of envy and bitterness at their good fortunes?
Yes, I think I would feel that way but would NEVER let anyone know it, and would struggle to over come it!
Do you feel Mary was too self-indulgent or self centered when it came to going through and emerging from her grief? If, so, why?
No I believe she is allowed to do whatever it takes!
To whom did you connect w/most in the novel and why? Mary, Mamie, Alice, Scarlet, Beth, LuLu, Harriet or Ellen?
Mary... I think I would have reacted much in the same way she did!
I'm stunned and sick. We found out this morning that our friends' little boy was killed (atv accident in Georgia, w/family) and the wake is tonight. I've been in a fog/daze since Hubby called & told me. His parents, (our friends) were up here in NJ when the accident happened. I had hoped & prayed they were down there but just found out that they weren't. I don't know if they made it down there before he died. I've never had to pick out a sympathy card for a situation like this and I honestly thought I was going to pass out in the aisle. NOTHING, no words, written or said, can be of any comfort to them right now.
Their daughter nearly died this winter when her strep infection went into her blood ~ now this?! These are good people! A good family!
I can't make sense of it, I just can't. Such a sweet, innocent, beautiful little boy!
I thought of The Knitting Circle this afternoon. Maybe one day, after some years have passed and depending on how his Mother is doing, I'll send it to her.
My heart literally hurts right now. This is so horrible.
**Update: He was thrown from an atv into a tree. His Grandpa, Grandma, Aunt, Uncle and Cousins were with him when it happened. His Mom & Dad were on their way down to GA but were delayed in Maryland when they broke down. By the time they got to Georgia, he was on life support & brain dead.
The wake was heart breaking. It was an open casket ~ he looked as though nothing had happened to him and he was just sleeping! The funeral tomorrow... I can't imagine.
Mod
Jo-- I am so sad for you and your friends. How absolutely horrible. You will be in my prayers.
That is so sad! I feel so sorry for that family.
How utterly terrible!
How utterly terrible!
What a long, heart breaking day this has been! (Today was the funeral, burial services, etc.) I'm exhausted. I can't imagine what they're going through now that all of the formalities are over and it's time to go back home... Hubby and I are still in shock.
Jo, I am so sorry for their loss and yours. You are all in my thoughts and prayers.
Jo-I am so sorry for the loss. We have friends whose daughter died a few weeks ago. She drowned at a pool party we were at (it happened shortly after we left). The death of a child is just so hard...You and the family will be in my prayers.
Meg......I loved your post up there on the 14th about whether or not Mary was self-indulgent in her grief. I think you summed it up beautifully. I also had different people who helped me in different ways with my grief. Some would call just to say hi but not talk about her....my cousin took me out any night I needed to get out of the house to go dance and drink my troubles away........my brother and sister in law took care of everything for me and most importantly my brother was the one who was kneeling down over the hole in the ground with me as I dumped her ashes in there scared they would fly all over the place. Only my brother would understand I needed someone with me during that moment......notice my husband wasn't the one there?? I didn't even know where he was during her tree-planting memorial service........
Thanks everyone for your kind words! (I still can't believe it though!) Wow Holli, I'm so sorry he wasn't there!
Jo....as I told you over IM I am truly sorry for the unspeakableness of this. Its such a horrific thing to have to go through and I have no idea what that would feel like. To lose a child at that age. I would be devastated. I know that you will be a comfort to your friends over this horrible time for them......
Well he was at the service....just not standing with me. I truly don't even remember being around him the whole day.
I want to be a comfort to them, but I don't think anyone or anything will be for a very long time to come, especially not now, if ever. I'm so worried about them!
Jo, how are you doing now? I know you want to be there for your friend and I know how easy it is to neglect oneself in doing that. I am still praying for you and your friend and your families.
Oh thank you! Thank you so much! I'm ok and I actually feel terrible about that!
I know what you mean... the guilt..."I shouldn't be laughing..." "I shouldn't be enjoying this..." etc.
Sometimes it is so hard for me to get past that!
Yes, guilt. I have a hard time with that. I actually have a mild tension migrane that kicked in on Saturday, a delayed reaction, I guess, but, am ok otherwise. I can't get his mother's face out of my mind and my heart hurts every time it flashes before my eyes! Strangley enough, this horrible tragedy has opened my eyes to the fact that all I've had and have are mostly "What if's" when it comes to children because of losing my daughter 9 years ago and being TERRIFIED of history repeating itself on me if I tried to have another child ~ what my friends are left with are Memories and wouldn't it be pathetic if all I ever allowd myself to have are the What if's and never try again?
I'm not saying I'm going off the pill and we're going to start trying to have a baby right away! This isn't going to happen in the very near future ~ I need to lose most of these 70lbs I've gained (that I've lost 22lbs of to date!!!) and get myself as healthy as humanly possible for me to be BEFORE I get pregnant so that maybe and hopefully history doesn't repeat itself.
Don't get me wrong, I'm still terrified, on many levels! But, I've got to stop letting fears stop me from trying things. I've got to.
Jo, my thoughts and prayers are with you and the family.
If you are NOT a knitter on what you've read here in The Knitting Circle, what is it about the activity that makes it so theraputic? I think it is about creation. Knowing that you created something can boost your self-esteem. For some it may make them feel usefull on some level.
Through each women's loss is different in the book and their reactions to their loss are different, what do they hold in common w/one another? How does such different types of loss bring them together?
That they lost someone they loved dearly--that they might have even died for them.It brings them together knowing that they may have experienced some of the same emotions as themseleves.
Do you feel Mary was too self-indulgent or self-centered when it came to going through and emerging from her grief?
No--I think we all choose a way to deal with grief. For Mary it was going to the unkown terriority. I think in this particular situation she felt comfortable with the unknown--noone can judge her.
Does Mary's finally telling og how Stella passed away signify a full recovery from her loss?
I think she went full circle for her. Being able to open up and tell her story. I think it will takes years to recover, but she is on a level that she can talk about it. Recovery--I think of it in this sense as a long process and back to a life that she can live with. I don't know if she was at that level yet.
Tish, thank you so much!It's been an amazing journey for all of us through this book I think!
Wow - I am sitting here bummed that I did not get involved in time to read this book... I am amazed at the level of sharing that is going on and the bonding between girlfriends that is happening here... what a gift from what sounds like a good read.
Cindy not too late to get in on the action!
Katie's right! Cindy, it's NOT too late! Please do read the book... I can guarantee the discussions are going to continue for a while!!! ;) Seriously, take my advice!
I ordered it today at the little book store in town - I should have it early next week. Can't wait it sounds very good and it sure is inspiring some great discussion.
I also orders September's read so I should have both in time.
Great!
LOOK for the SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENT re The Knitting Circle in the general topics section! Exciting news Chicks!
First let me say - I really LOVED this book! Now to answer the questions...If you are NOT a knitter, based on what you've read here in The Knitting Circle, what is it about the activity that makes it so theraputic?
I knit
If you are a knitter, do you feel the act of knitting is theraputic? How so?
It is the complete focus and concentration on the craft vs. the problems or pain that is wearing on your mind. Just like Rosary beads it is a rythmic repetition that is calming, it is an escape
Though each women's loss is different in the book and their reactions to their loss are different, what do they hold in common w/one another? How does such different types of loss bring them together?
Each loss is a deep wound that causes them to feel alone with unmeasurable heartache and pain. It consumes them and it is only in finding that there are others that share similar pain and sorrow (yet different in its own way) they draw strength from each others survival through the loss.
Can you relate to Mary's reacting to others w/feeling of envy and bitterness at their good fortunes?
yes
Do you feel Mary was too self-indulgent or self centered when it came to going through and emerging from her grief? If, so, why?
No, I understand completely the cycle of grief, sadness, depression, anger .. it can often repeat on itself and it is definitely an individual process.
Why did it take Mamie so long to open up to Mary about her own loss of her 1st child and her own difficulties w/emerging from grief? Had Mary known, would their relationship have been better over the years, especially during the time after Stella passed away?
I think that she (Mamie) did not fully comprehend why she felt some of the feelings toward Mary that she did. It was through the loss of Stella that probably motivated her to reflect on her relationship with Mary. Certainly, had they had more of an open relationship about this earlier, it might have improved their relationship. But, I really don't think that Mamie was ready - until she was ready
Why do Dylan, and eventually Mary, turn to people outside their marriage in the time after Stella's passing? Is Dylan a more unforgiveable character because he actually has a relationship w/someone else while Mary has a brief, mainly physical encounter over a holiday w/someone else? Did you want her marriage to Dylan to end or for them to get back together?
As it says in the book this is a common outcome from the loss of a child - it is a form of running from the reality of the loss. I think Mary was a much stronger character for what she endured. I thought of Dylan as a looser unable to provide the strenght and patience that Mary needed. Bye-Bye Dylan - you are history!
How important to Mary's recovery was learning to knit, the knitting circle and the people who were also a part of the knitting circle?
The knitting circle was Mary's recovery. She found the common bond and network of support that she needed. She found irreplaceable Girlfriends!
How do you think Mary would've reacted to Holly's baby in the beginning of the novel versus how she did toward's the end?
She could not have handled it in the beginning - at all
Does Mary's finally telling of how Stella passed away signify a full recovery from her loss?
She is finally coming to the most important stage of "acceptance".
To whom did you connect w/most in the novel and why? Mary, Mamie, Alice, Scarlet, Beth, LuLu, Harriet or Ellen?
I connected with Mary and Lulu - I think I am a little bit of both. The page where Mary's mother admits that she resented Mary due to the inability to cope with the loss of her first child really struck me. My grandmother raised me (was also an alcoholic) and though the words were never spoken between us, I always felt that she resented me in some way because I survived the plane crash that took my mother's (her daughters) life. I really connected with that piece of the story.
Lulu - is alot like me - out there LOL
Cindy, I'm so glad you enjoyed TKC! I never thought of comparing knitting to Rosary Beads! I LOVE that! Thanks for your touching answers and sharing with us! I actually don't know if I answered all or most of the questions myself come to think of it! (Bad group read leader, bad!!!) I'll take a look-see tomorrow and post them if I haven't!
I recently taught myself how to knit. I'm still at the scarf and other square objects stage. When I knit, I find that one portion of my mind focuses on the knitting, but the "back" of my mind can go of and think through other things. This is particularly true working on a repeating pattern that doesn't call for referring to a printed pattern often.
The back of my mind is working through things, but at a somewhat abstracted level - not emotionally charged. Sort of like driving and thinking about something. You have to keep your focus on the road and the cars around you, but you're also working on your grocery list or the meeting at work or whatever.
