The Phantom of the Opera
discussion
She should have chosen the phantom
np it is nice that ppl can be ok with others having different opinions and not take it too far lol. it's not like there's anything personal meant by any of this discussion about fictional characters ;)Also, I think there really was all that stuff under the opera house! or ... is! Since I'm pretty sure the Paris Opera House is still there, but I haven't really looked into it or anything. So that's pretty cool, regardless of whether the story was REALLY (omg caps!) real or not :) if it wasn't it COULD (zomg!) be! :D
The Paris Opera House is real, however I doubt that everything Leroux describes as being under it, where Erik lives and how he gets in and out and all, is really there. But you never know. It's a very old and very beautiful and ornate building.
Marilyn wrote: "np it is nice that ppl can be ok with others having different opinions and not take it too far lol. it's not like there's anything personal meant by any of this discussion about fictional character..."I like to listen to different opinions about anything, i think it enrich your knowlegde besides making a interesting conversation.
Well Marilyn and Katie, i will look for it on internet and i will let you know what i found. ITS GOING TO BE FUN! lol. It will take me a couple of days.
I have been to the Opera Garnier twice. There is a an underground area where they used stored the really big opera props. However they don't let anyone go down there. There also was a subterranean lake that had to be pumped out during the construction of the Opera. It is a beautiful building and the grand staircase is amazing.
Katherine wrote: "I have been to the Opera Garnier twice. There is a an underground area where they used stored the really big opera props. However they don't let anyone go down there. There also was a subterranean ..."wow! I've heard about that but its so cool that you've actually been there. so jealous! :)
I have to admit it was one of the highlights of my time in Paris. I am such a geek for this story. Although they were playing the new movie on HBO and I have to admit they just left Gerard Butler to handsome. Sure he wore the mask but there wasn't really anything repulsive about him. Part of Christine's issue is that she is both repulsed and drawn to him.
This is what i found online...http://ph.answers.yahoo.com/question/...
And this is the character of Christine Daae - Thats what they say: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christin...
What do you think?
While Leroux claimed the book was based on a true story, there has never been any evidence found for this. Before he wrote fiction, Leroux was a newspaper reporter and he may have decided to claim that the story was true to drum up publicity for it.There really is a lake and passages beneath the opera house and many of the locations mentioned in the book can be seen in the Opera house (like box 5), however nothing like what was recorded in the book ever happened. If it had, there would be newspaper stories and diary entries and things recording it (famous opera singers don't get kidnapped without someone noticing and things like murders absolutely get reported). The building itself is big and can be a little creepy sometimes, so it probably wasn't hard to convince people that it might have been haunted at some point.
While it's not possible to say definitively at this point that there was never anything odd or suspicious in the life of the Opera house that Leroux might have used as inspiration, none has ever been found. There are lots of records of Paris at that time, so it seems unlikely that it was there and we missed it, but rumors don't always get recorded, so while no actual events probably happened, that doesn't mean that we might not have lost or missed a record of a time when people thought the building was creepier than we think it is now over the years.
Thanks for your thoughts Katie,and you have some really good points there. You other ladies have given such a great discription of the Opera house..I hope Im luckly enough to see myself somday,It would be a MUST on the "things to see in Paris"!!
It's hard to say each were polar opposites. It seems she had already loved Raoul so it may have been too late. In the book the phantom was a bit crazier. But considering the play I would have chosen the phantom. He represented one's deepest desires, while Raoul was a safe secure choice. If your going by your personal standards which would you prefer security or adventure? Everyone is different in their needs. If it had been a modern story she would have had more of a choice to say you keep your money and you keep your crazy I'm moving on.
He was a psychotic killer. No, the story is not real.
I agree she should have chosen phantom yet he was kind of creepy did he have something wrong in his Brian medically
Tabor wrote: "When watching the movie, I thought she belonged with Raoul but when I read the book she seemed to be doing more of a favor for Raoul then actually being in love with him."That's exactly how I felt too. The movie version is more sympathetic to Erik. Esp. the Gerrard Butler version. In the book though, no, she made the right choice with Raoul.
Katie wrote: "I'm sorry, but Erik is an abusive, manipulative *murder*. "You can hardly hold it against him"? Really? REALLY? Did you people read the same book that I did? Erik is absolutely a complex and i..."So very treue katie ...u got the very essence of the story i think..
I completely love the dark, seductive, passion Erick has for Christine. I know I would have chosen him!!
Emily wrote: "Tabor wrote: "When watching the movie, I thought she belonged with Raoul but when I read the book she seemed to be doing more of a favor for Raoul then actually being in love with him."That's exa..."
I agree with you too!
Heather wrote: "I completely love the dark, seductive, passion Erick has for Christine. I know I would have chosen him!!"What? and live in darkness? with a murder? are you ok?
I always wished Christine would have stayed with the Phantom, but I also feel there are several reasons why Leroux chose NOT to let them stay together. For me, the main reason is Erik's unstable mental state. Although he loves her very much, I'm sure we can all agree that the Phantom is dark, tormented and a bit mad; not to say that he is not worthy of love, or that he is incapable of loving, but it would not have been a healthy relationship in the long term. Remember, this is a man who says "I love you" by kidnapping the girl of his dreams, tying her to a chair, and giving her the choice of marrying him, or the deaths of everyone in the Opera house. For a young girl like Christine, this is anything but romantic. Of course, there is some allure to the Phantom, and I do believe she cares for him, (view spoiler), but she would not have been happy in the long term.
Uhh...the Phantom was kind of murderous and crazy. He was going to kill the man she loves, blow up the opera house, and kill Christine is she didn't agree to marry him. He's sympathetic, sure, but the fact that he's willing to do that shows he's seriously unhinged. Had Christine chosen him, I think she either would have killed herself or the love and passion would have died very quickly and they would both miserable. It's one thing to have chemistry, it's another to be able to spend the rest of your life with a person.
Melissa wrote: "Olivia wrote: "where can i get the book? and ive only seen the movie and i think that raoul and christine belong together forever"Well the movie is Ok but if you really liked it, you will LOVE ..."
i actually cant find it here in the libary but i might ask my mom if i can go to chapters to get it
Why should she? Christine chose the one she loved and not the one who you, people, like the most :DI feel sorry for the phantom, but I think it is hard to choose him and make decision is not so easy. What will you do at the place of Christine? surely, stay with Erik. But let me imagine the future. At first you will be happy but not for long.. I know one thing: reality of book is different from the reality around us...
and btw, I don't like prequels and sequels. I love The Phantom of the Opera that was written by Leroux and basta... (for me of course :D)
It depends on what version.With the book, I definately thought christine should be with Raoul...but in the movie and the broadway show, I thought she should be with the Phantom (Erik).
In the book the Phantom was actually evil...but in the show he's portrayed as more of a person who's just mis-judged. So....idk
I don´t think Phantom is any less evil in stageshow or the movie. He blackmails, murders, terrorizes Carlotta, kidnaps Christine, destroys the managers financially, and if Raoul had not come, he would have forced Christine to marry him and probably raped her. He is also shallow, hypocritical fop - asking Christine to see a man, not a monster, but mocking other people´s appearances, age, weight etc. He HAS fabulous poetry and sense of beauty to rise him above ordinary sleaze and filth but STILL, he is deeply flawed.
I don't think Christine would have been happy with the Phantom. Her love wouldn't change him into prince charming. Also, maybe I'm remembering this wrong, but didn't she think the Phantom was her dead father, or any angel sent by her dead father?
Katie wrote: "I'm sorry, but Erik is an abusive, manipulative *murder*. "You can hardly hold it against him"? Really? REALLY? Did you people read the same book that I did? Erik is absolutely a complex and i..."Yessss. I feel like a lot of people overlook the fact that, although she was intrigued by Erik, Christine was afraid of him. People also seem to ignore the fact that she repeatedly told Raoul that she loved him, and then Erik took him away and threatened to murder him. Are we overlooking that fact???
It has been a while since I read the original book, but I remember Christine was a bit vain. She cared for Erik, but would not be with him because of his hideous appearance. She was more concerned with his appeareance then with his little problem of killing those in his way. At the end of the book, I really didn't like Christine and I felt sorry for Erik - even with the bad things he had done. Beauty triumphed this time. I think we all want the underdog to win, and the Phantom is the underdog in this story. His love wasn't healthy by any means, but we want to see him have a happy ending. We want Christine to look beyond his appearance and see the wonderful man he really is and that his bad behaviour is only because of the way he has been treated all of his life because of his appearance. We want Christine's love to heal him. Alas, it was not to be. I will say that if Gerald Butler (who played the phantom in the movie adaptation of the play) had been the real phantom, Christine would have chosen Erik.
rayful wrote: "Katie wrote: "I'm sorry, but Erik is an abusive, manipulative *murder*. "You can hardly hold it against him"? Really? REALLY? Did you people read the same book that I did? Erik is absolutely a..."I'm with you Katie. I think the Phantom is a great character but so are other villains. If we're talking about who Christine should have chosen, staying with Erik is totally wrong. How long before he would have turned on her?
Christina wrote: "rayful wrote: "Katie wrote: "I'm sorry, but Erik is an abusive, manipulative *murder*. "You can hardly hold it against him"? Really? REALLY? Did you people read the same book that I did? Erik ..."I am also with Katie on this. How could Christine ever love Erik knowing how he murdered in cold blood? She felt guilty for having such a bond with him as it was. She even tried to see who he was behind the mask and that's when Christine had to have known she could never be with him. he blew up in her face. He was too hot tempered and people died due to it.
To me, my perception of both characters are different when reading the book compared to watching the movie. I watched the movie first and it made me have more compaasion for the Phantom. THe flashback into his past, he is in the circus as the living corpse, taught him to act the way he does. His life is devoid of love and he is used solely as income for an abusive master. Often times he speaks to Christine of his past. "this face which earned a mother's fear and loathing" or "The world showed no compassionfor me!" etc. but all in all, he was a murderer, rvengeful and dangerous but what can you expect considering his past. Plus it was pretty sick how he used her father's memory to woo her. Raoul on the other hand has been coddled and cared fr his whole life. They were childhood sweethearts but he had forgotten about Christine until he heard her sing. He was much more shallow than the phantom. In the book, I thought that both of the characters were pretty. . . undesireable (with lack of a beter word. The Phantom was still portrayed as the living corpse in his childhood but was quickly snapped up by a sultana in Persia to kill innocent people in torturous ways. He was still a misunderstood genius because of his appearence, but he also took pleasure in torture and killing. In the book the viscomte was even more shallow. A mere boy who was convinced he was in love and didnt understand Christines predicament.
Both the book and the movie give an insight into each character, and they are different enough that one forms different opinions of the characters.
Arie wrote: "Am I alone in this belief? I think that Christine chose completely the wrong person, the phantom and her had a special relationship that was dark and full of chemistry. I was heart broken that she ..."I agree. the mysterious would have been so much more romantic. he went to so much trouble, and had known her. he saw every flaw, while the other just loved without knowledge. i love his twisted agony when she asks to see his face, and a lifetime of love would have been beautiful, after the struggles of coming to love him. just like a modern beauty and the beast! <3
Melissa wrote: "Marilyn wrote: "Melissa wrote: "Marilyn wrote: "imo, she chose raoul based on his looks because it would be more acceptable in society or whatever. it's justified because the phantom murdered peopl..."the story is based on an actual opera house, but that was just where the inspiration came from for the book. my guess is there was no actual phantom.
Reminds me of a quote from the book:“Poor, unhappy Erik! Shall we pity him? Shall we curse him? He asked only to be 'some one,' like everybody else. But he was too ugly! And he had to hide his genius or use it to play tricks with, when, with an ordinary face, he would have been one of the most distinguished of mankind! He had a heart that could have held the entire empire of the world; and, in the end, he had to content himself with a cellar.”
I was sad that Erik didn't get happiness in the end, but Raoul and Christine knew each other for years and made a nice couple. Poor Erik resorted to murder and fear to get Christine. But he had an awful past where he knew he wouldn't be accepted so what else could he do? It was all he knew.
I do like the book and the film/musical, and I think Raoul and Erik are portrayed differenty from reading the book then watching the film. Still a great story :D
She should have gone with Erik. He truely loved her and obviously would have done anything for her. Raoul seemed foolish and immature to me. Erik was the person who truely belonged with Christine.
I would have been a rollercoaster ride with the phantom that she would want to get off of at some point if she would have chosen him. He's intriguing, yes, but also has a dark , unstable side. Raoul is a much more stable, balanced person. She chose right, imo.
I understand the appearance of Eric as a hero who suffers, he's interesting and mysterious but... is it possible that nobody noticed him as a maniac?
Katie wrote: "I'm sorry, but Erik is an abusive, manipulative *murder*. "You can hardly hold it against him"? Really? REALLY? Did you people read the same book that I did? Erik is absolutely a complex and i..."I agree 100%. The Phantom is the more complex and interesting Character, but that doesn't mean he should be in a relationship. He would completely dominate Christine.
It really depends on christine, the book just showed how reality could be frustrating sometimes. Just because Erik murders and is inexplicably evil at many points and somehow might be mentally unstable doesn't mean he can't love and care. Unfortunately, he found love in christine who was young and scared that when she found out erik's true colors she viewed raoul as a knight-in-shining armor. And the phantom's flaws added to the scary factor that christine decided to live with raoul. But I do not think Raoul was the one she loves however...she loves erik with pity, but she loved raoul quickly. She just saw him in the audience and remembered he's her childhood sweetheart!Maybe she really doesn't love BOTH. With Erik it was pity and with Raoul infatuation...so it might be good if christine were to choose no one and live a peaceful life in some place far away and start all over again. She'd only hurt both men(and possibly herself) later for sure. If the basis of her love is sympathy or innocence of what love is...
I really love the book. And against my better judgement, if I were Christine I would have chosen the Phantom...really can't explain why.
Christine needed to chill on relationships for awhile until she was mature enough to understand love vs. abuse or lust.
I really pity the phantom, but I wouldn't want to live my whole life underground with an obsessed, crazed serial killer.
Christine, Very true...Haley , lol and very true also !
While I've always felt Christine and the Phantom had an undeniable connection and should have been together, having her end up with Raoul was the better ending. Think about it--the Phantom was a murderer. He was twisted and wanted to force her into something she wasn't sure she wanted. I loathe Raoul, but he was the safer choice and I understand why she ultimately went with him. Sometimes, love and passion just isn't enough.
Yep I agree, in fact the POTO forum I used to belong too had this very debate going on for ages.Raoul is shallow and immature. He cannot feel pity and forgiveness.
Erik is quite astonishingly deep, there are so many sides to him. He is amazingly talented in a wide variety of skills and he is easily twice as clever as Raoul. He appreciates talent and encourages it and even Erik's vindictive side (such as fleecing the managers for the money) is quite amusing. I alwasy wondered what he did with that money 20000 fr a month was an absolute fortune then. He had a house, the novel states he did venture out to buy food, though disguised but how much can one man eat?
I think he did it mainly because he could.
Raoul was the safe bet. Handsome, respected, rich but a bit wet.
Erik was the dangerous bet- dark, mysterious, moody and unpredictable. As much as I adore Erik and I would love for him to have ended up with Christine I do thing most of us would have chosen as she did in reality. Yes she loved Erik, and I think she did, and he loved her as much as he could love anyone. My romantic side says yes choose Erik but they could never have had a "normal" life. They would have destroyed each other.
Funnily enough all the fan-fic and other such books have always ended up with Raoul losing his money, cheating on her or being otherwise unworthy. oh and she was never allowed to forget.They never moved on, Erik was always there and she was never completely happy.
Christine was rather niave and very superstitious. She had no one as her family were dead and her guardian was old. AT that stage she would have had to marry. If she had been kept she would have been branded a whore. SHe grew up on fairy tales and she was only about 18 or 19 with no real experience of the world.
Raoul was handsome and she had good memories but he would have debased himself to marry her. Especially after the Comte's death. She was a commoner." He too was niave but at least he had money.
Erik - well he was Erik. He was at least worldly wise even if that view was skewed. All things being equal Erik would have won hands down. If he hadnt been deformed he would have been immensely famous. I think he knew that too. SO much talent and he had to hide.
You are right Alexandra. There is not a balanced point of view about the future.I came to the next conclusions:
The "sequels" and show pics which put Christine and Raoul's marriage falling are thoughts and hopes where Christine's "true love" was Erick the whole time. And they are showing the consequences for not choosing the true love: Raoul's deterioration, Christine's longing and frustration, etc.
Also there are others who think the contrary, that she did the right choice with Raoul because if she had chosen Erik, she would have become an outcast and she wouldn't have had stability in her life, either economical or emotional. (Not only because of Erik's physical appearance, but also because of Erik's emotions and feelings) There would have been at some point of her life the disenchantment phase.
Maybe Christine was shallow at some point and was still a little girl, maybe she would have run with Erik if he was the charming prince she was thinking about (but like with Raoul, there would have been a disenchantment at some point of her life about him, only that the blow could have been more devastated than with Raoul because life expectations would be higher).
About having, gaining and losing money, those issues can appear no matter whom Christine had chosen.
I reckon that she was in love with the Phantom and ends up with him. As far as 'Love Never Dies' is concerned, she moves away with Raoul and the Phantom also moves away so i'm sure that Christine and the Phantom could have worked things out without having to live underground. I do also believe that she was in love with both Erik and Raoul - BUT - in different ways. And although she knew it was healthier to be with Raoul at the time, the Phantom seems more stable in 'Love Never Dies' and (*SPOILER ALERT*) she seems to have chosen Erik seeing as she had her only child with him. Also Raoul's mental health seems to be deteriorating...which is kind of a turn around really. I think it shows that true beauty can be found within, even if a little distorted on the surface, I think Christine realises this eventually when she finally forms a relationship with the Phantom (although not quite sure why she's still stringing Raoul along...don't really think that's fair. Guess she feels like it's her duty to be with him still).
Arie wrote: "Am I alone in this belief? I think that Christine chose completely the wrong person, the phantom and her had a special relationship that was dark and full of chemistry. I was heart broken that she ..."No you are not alone in this belief. I completely agree with you Arie. Christine belongs with the Phantom! I ABSOLUTELY LOVE THIS BOOK!!!!
Oddly withing the original book Erik states he has a nask he can wear outside that makes him look passable in public, one assumes he has to shop for food and clothes etc. I can't remember off hand if the house on the lake has a kitchen but even the Opera GHost has to eat. During his days before the Opera House I am not sure he lived in such seclusion so he can pass in public long enough to get by. Around that time there would have been those disfigured by war and injury/illness abnd although it was misunderstood he would not have been alone. The sad thing is he could have been accepted eventually if he had not been so horrendously treated early on, The distortion trully was in his soul by the time he meets Christine.
Perhaps had his mother been kind to him and he had not ended up in the circus he could have been trully great. That is the true sadness.:(
Katie wrote: "I'm sorry, but Erik is an abusive, manipulative *murder*. "You can hardly hold it against him"? Really? REALLY? Did you people read the same book that I did? Erik is absolutely a complex and i..."
My thoughts exactly, why would any girl want to live with an obsessive, controlling, murderer? When it comes right down to it, would you really want to marry a man who would blow up an opera house full of people if you reject him?
My thoughts exactly, why would any girl want to live with an obsessive, controlling, murderer? When it comes right down to it, would you really want to marry a man who would blow up an opera house full of people if you reject him?
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The magic of the book for me is that this wonderful story might be real. Imagine walking on the dungeons and all those places where Erik lived. Thanks for sharing your opinion!