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July/August Group Read: The Thirteenth Tale by Diane Setterfield
Yep scar on her side. I'll give you a minute to think it over and expect you to come back to this thread fully on my side of the debate. ;)
Mod
*crosses to Felina's side*
(Are we playing Red Rover or something?) :P
Yes. Red Rover, Red Rover send Danielle right over.
**Spoiler**I'm here! Yes there was a lot of supernatural references. And you are right there are unexplained phenomena that exist between twins. I suppose a conjoined twin might even be more so.
I also found Vida's stories to be fantastic. This book reminded me of an old book that I have read but I just can't remember what it was. Maybe a bit of Wuthering Heights?? Or a twisted fairy tale?
Danielle wrote: "**Spoiler***************SPOILER ALERT*****************
I have to agree with Becky. I found the whole twin thing strange and out of place. I think Margaret had a bit of a mental issue. She talks about going to the other side with her t..."
danielle, I think you are right about Margeret having some serious loss (mental) issues. I can't remember if it says early on in the story, BEFORE she knew that she was a twin, whether she felt that there was a piece of herself missing and that she was always searching for something/someone ( or having visions). Does anyone remember if that came up for her BEFORE she found out she was part of a twin relationship? I guess, to me, it makes more sense if she felt something missing prior to finding out her loss and thinking she saw her twin than if she just started having these visions after finding out. Although that sounds a little crazy too ;) I guess, no matter which way it happened, Margaret was a little off... I'm not sure if I am making sense (I have kids around needing attention while I write this!).
*** Spoiler ***Just finished the book -- incest and self mutilation aside, I really liked it. If I remember right, Margaret wasn't too surprised when she found out about her dead twin. It seemed to explain things for her. I thought her twinness made sense, especially as it relates to her relationship (or lack of) with her mother. And her father, for that matter. If being a twin is a unique emotional experience, it gives her more connection to Vida and her story. I think the book is as much about Margaret's healing as it is about Vida's history.
"I think the book is as much about Margaret's healing as it is about Vida's history". definitely true!!
***Spoiler***What I am really curious about is Vida's relationship with Emmaline? She says that her love was only for Emmaline. That was why she did not want to be with that boy. What do you think of that? Was she in love with Emmaline? The twisted did run in that family. The father had a unhealthy attachment to Isabelle, then Charles with Isabelle, and it seemed that Vida did with Emmaline. Remember Vida is not a twin. So she does not share that special connection that twins are said to have. Thoughts on this?
*** More Spoiler ***I wondered about that, too. On the other hand, Vida no doubt had some kind of detachment disorder (don't remember the name of the condition that occurs when kids grow up without close human contact). Was her love for Emmaline a fixation that came out of her neglected and maybe abused early childhood? Or maybe it was a combination -- family inclination toward emotional disorder plus lack of nurturing.
Here's a new question -- did you end the book thinking that Emmaline was really Adeline?
***spoiler***I think Vida's feelings for Emmaline was more because the twins were her only family and Emmaline was slow/stupid and she felt she needed to protect Emmaline from everything especially Adeline. I think she would have felt the same way for Adeline if she hadn't been insane. I do think Vida's feelins for Emmaline were unusual but I don't think they were sexual.
I just finished this book like 2 minutes ago. Just so I'm sure I get it:
Emmaline = Slow witted but pleasant
Adeline = Rage/insane/withdrawn
Vida = Ghost/Girl in the mist
Right? So every time they saw 'the girl in the mist' in Adeline it was really just Vida taking her place? So both the twins had issues, no doubt stemmed from their parent's incestuous relationship.
****Spoiler****You bring up some very good points about detachment disorder and how her love for Emily could stem from her childhood and lack of love. You know I did think that Emmaline was in fact Adeline. The reason for this was because when Vida thought that she had grabbed Emmaline she tried to go back into the room after Adeline. I think that if it had been Emmaline she would have not gone back in there because Vida had told her that the baby was safe. It was Adeline who was obsessed with Emmaline so I can only see her going into a blazing fire for the one she loves. What did you think??
Here's a new question -- did you end the book thinking that Emmaline was really Adeline? How do you mean?
****Spoiler***Yes Felina, I think that the girl in the mist was Vida pretending to be Adeline. I don't know if the issues they had stemmed from Isabelle's and Charlie's relationship but rather their environment. Yes, Emmaline was slow but with Hester's help she made many progressive steps. I think that maybe Adeline kept Emmaline dull-witted. She had no reason to change. Adeline had a crazy rage. Charlie had that too. And Isabelle was just crazy. Not fit to be a mother.
*** Spoiler ***Vida said she wasn't sure she pulled Emmaline out of the fire. And then Margaret refers to her as the woman known as Emmaline (or something like that). So I wasn't sure who really survived. I got the impression it may really be Adeline, since Vida herself raised the question. If she knew for sure, it would have been a non-issue. But presumably, the rescued Adeline was no longer prone to violent rages, maybe because she'd lost her twin? Can you tell I waffled a bit on this?
****Spoiler****It was never clearly said who was pulled from the fire. I think its left to the reader to decide.
***Spoiler***I think the behavior issues with the twins had everything to do with their enviornment however I think the fact that they were breed of incest explained a lot as well.
ML - never thought about that but it is an interesting thing to ponder. If Emmaline had been pulled out of the fire I think she would have tried to find Arelius (sp? I audioed). She seemed to really love the baby. But I also think that Adeline would have been crazy with rage over the loss of Emmaline so I don't know.
*** Spoiler ***I thought about that too, Felina. And if it had been Emmaline who was saved, would Vida have moved them away from the area? (Of course, that could have been to protect Emmaline, I guess.)
Was Emmaline later digging in the dirt to find Aurelius? Or Adeline digging to find Emmaline? It seems more likely a thing Emmaline would have done. The odd 5-note singing also seems more an Emmaline thing.
Time to stop thinking myself in circles . . .
***Spoiler***I think it was probably Emmaline. I think Vida would have known on some level and I don't think she would have housed Adeline if she'd thought it was her.
*****Spoiler****I am not an expert on offspring of incestuous relationships but I do know that said children are more at risk of genetic defects especially over a period of generations, but I didn't think that Adeline had any defect. Emmaline did have learning disabilities and maybe that was the cause but Adeline seemed to have an immense amount of rage which is a psychological condition not a genetic condition. But I'm no expert!! So I could be completely wrong:)
Also, Vida says in her story that she couldn't tell who she pulled from the fire. Who was pulled from the fire is left open. If it was Emmaline and she was grieving for her lost child I would think that Vida would retrieve her baby. I don't think she would let Emmaline continue to live with the belief that her baby was dead. The person living with Vida had lost her mind. I would think that would be Adeline. She had lost her twin, her ultimate love, the only person she cared about. Maybe! It's difficult to figure out. They did call the woman who was pulled from the fire Emmaline because they thought that Adeline was Vida. No one had a clue that there was a third girl involved. So who knows? The author did a good job. I like endings that are not so tidy.
***Spoilers***Well we know that having a case of the crazies is apparently genetic in this family. I would think that having gene symilarity could effect the brain as well as the physical body. Certain psychological conditions have been found to be hereditary (i.e. Depression, Bi-polar, multiple personalities). So I don't think defects from imbreeding is subject just to the physical body. While I think most of the twins emotional problems are due to their enviornment and the absence of their parents or parental figures I think they were pre-disposed by imbreeding to have mental issues.
Now you have me thinking conspiracy theory about who was pulled out of the fire. It could have been either one.
****spoilers******Pre-disposed to have mental issues, yes you are right, that can happen. I have a cousin who suffers from schizophrenia and I have read that it can be hereditary. Although I do not know of anyone else in my family having it, it must have been someone a few generations before. I have always been interested in psychology. I like to take classes on it when I am able. The mind is fascinating and kind of scary.
Haha conspiracy theory!? At first I thought for sure that it was Emmaline but then the deeper the story got and the more my mind worked, the more I figured it was Adeline. But I can't be positive. I wonder if the author has something to say about this somewhere. I will have to search...
You and me both Danielle. I always loved my psychology courses in college although I never considered it as a career. I think I would get to attached to people and feel terrible all the time. It would certainly require a degree of detachment. Also why I could never go into the medical field. I have never really studied Schizophrenia and have never met anybody who ever knew anybody who suffered from it. If you don't mind, how severe is your cousin's condition? Does he/she manage to live a normal life or are they in an institution?
In the past I have thought of psychology as a career but like you, I would have a difficult time separating myself from patients. I will tell you about my cousin, don't mind at all. He was always odd. He is older then me so I did not always realize but my parents recognized his oddity. He started having real problems that affected his daily life in his twenties. From what I have been told he heard voices, but they were hallucinations. He was having crazy delusions. He was heavily medicated for a number of years but did not have to enter an institution. He seems to be unable to hold down a job and has wacky sleep patterns. He has a few odd things with food, such as he always thinks someone is going to poison him. It's interesting and sad. He is able to live on his own because his family helps him, thankfully he is not as bad as others. Last time I saw him though he was doing much better.
***spoiler***This discussion of whether Adeliene or Emmaline was rescued from the fire made me remember a scene from the book that struck me while reading it and never seemed to me, to have a reasoning behind it until this discussion. It was a scene in which Margaret was interviewing Vida, early on, and Vida screamed out in apparent emotional agony "Emmaline!" NOw, if it was truly Adeliene who was saved from the fire, this would make sense to me why she screamed out Emmeline's name. It was a painful loss. Does anyone else remember this scene? Or am I going a little crazy ;)
Yes I do remember that! I will have to go back and look...
***Spoiler***I remember that to and I remember being surprised that 'Emmaline' turned out to be alive because Vida had kind of made it clear that she had died. Thats a nod in the Emmaline died and Adeline lived direction.
Fallen wrote: "Candace wrote: "I enjoyed this book. It reminded me of Shadow of the Wind by Carlos Ruiz Zafón which is another captivating book if you haven't read it."Yes! I recently read that one as well an..."
Okay, I am going to read this! So many people have recommended this book.
**spoilers**I just finished this yesterday, and I really, really liked it. I believe it was Adeline who was saved, and Vida took care of her all those years out of guilt, a sense of responsibility, and honestly because she'd assumed her identity so really was obligated to care for her.
I was fine with Margaret being a twin, as it added another layer to the story and explained her personal draw to Vida's story. But I thought the ending, where Margaret was visited by her twin, was just odd.
Mod
I'm loving the discussion for this book! :D
*spoilers*Yeah I don't know about the end when she's visited by her twin either. It just confused me, since there was a death certificate for the twin and everything... strange.
***Spoiler***I thought the end was weird as well. I know the sister is dead but is this visitation supposed to symbolize healing?
I am coming into this long and interesting discussion late, but at least the review I wrote up today after finishing, ties in to Margaret's twin appearance at the very end of the book as feeling out of place. So, for what it's worth, here's my take on the whole enchilada ;-)I really, really thought I was going to love this book. I was behind everyone here getting started and everyone was saying such good things about it. It has many elements I usually enjoy in a novel: historical fiction, questions of identity and sibling rivalries, a post-modern structure, and a somewhat chilly protagonist who prefers books to people. Margaret, our main character, grew up in a bookstore and learned to read using 19th century novels, and there are obvious parallels in The Thirteenth Tale to Charlotte Bronte’s Jane Eyre, and Henry James’ The Turn of the Screw (which is an eerie, but ultimately unsatisfying, read too).
And yet, with all this, The Thirteenth Tale just somehow fell flat for me. It just didn’t measure up somehow, though there were definitely interesting moments and I would say the last third (excluding MOST of the last chapter) was the best part of this novel (which is unusual too: sometimes books start off really well and then just don’t maintain their momentum or fulfill their promise). It felt like I never got wholly caught up in the story; but was always outside trying to figure out the angles:
- maybe Isabelle not wasn’t really dead of influenza and had she secretly returned to the neighbourhood? She couldn’t be at the manor, or Charlie would have known….
- and, the introduction of a half-sister, bastard of Charlie’s was a good addition, and her taking Adeline’s ‘place’ and the real Adeline becomes Emmeline – all very, very good
Yet, beyond Margret’s decision not to encumber Aurelius further, with Vida’s biography, if she just had have left it there, with the other small details as lingering wonderings, I think it would have been better/stronger story.
The endless endings that Setterfield gives and gives and gives some more, right up to the ghostly appearance of Margret’s twin, really felt very contrived and extremely indulgent. I would have preferred Setterfield had had Margaret finished with the filing her biography of Vida away in Lomax’ vault, and maybe with the mention of writing the dispensation of that document into her will – enough already.
In fact, Margaret Lea’s parallel twin story, seemed the most obviously contrived part of this story. I get that Setterfield needed a reason of the famous Vida Winter to connect with the little-known shop girl, Margaret Lea, and even Margaret’s lost twin as an explanation of Margret’s mother’s behaviors would be fine; but I find this aspect of Setterfield’s story unnecessarily drawn out and contrived. I could see the dead twin being present but not really so dominant in Margret’s life.
Anyway, I’m still glad it was on the reading list here. In spite of all my criticisms here, I did enjoy a great deal of this novel.
Just finished The Thirteenth Tale. Wonderful story with so many twists that one keeps wondering what will happen next. I liked the twin theme and when the mysterious child appear...ah, things get more interesting. Great read!
April, I'm kind of with you on this one. Although I enjoyed the story, I didn't like it as much as I thought I would from all the reviews I read prior to reading the book. I haven't recommended the book to anyone, so that says something :)
Tasha wrote: "April, I'm kind of with you on this one. Although I enjoyed the story, I didn't like it as much as I thought I would from all the reviews I read prior to reading the book. I haven't recommended t..."Yeah, Tasha, word of mouth, maybe is the final word?
Though, that said, I think The Thirteenth Tale spoke to a lot of people here too.
Which brings me around to a question I have been given some serious thought and reading to lately:
Why do stories continue to play such an integral role in almost all people's lives (I'm speaking very broadly here, and including the multibillion dollar film industry, which is a steady diet of stories for many, right down to our children's bedrooms: where we are reading at bedtime, harkening back to oral traditions.
I know we read for escapism, but I think we read to be instructed too; do we like books better when we identify with characters/situations?
Northrop Frye says there is really only one story: he says all stories can be distilled down to being about identity - heavy paraphrasing here from The Educated Imagination.
Northrop Frye
Educated Imagination
Anyone here have thoughts to add on this? I would be very, very interested in hearing them.
Thanks,
April
April, We NEED stories. How else would we be able to connect with the world beginning with our own neighborhood, village, city. It is how we learn different attitudes, behaviors, language, history, stories. It is how we learn to judge each other, what we agree is acceptable and what is not. It opens up a world of light, and experience and opportunity. It also shows the dark side of humanity and helps us to set forth laws and punishment. We don't always get it right but if it weren't for the human connection and that connection is comprised in literature, you don't have a society - you have the dark ages.
Not to mention that stories are the easiest way to convey an idea or point. You could explain issues to people but giving the idea a face and story line makes the issue easier to relate to. If Jane burns her hand on the stove then I might to. That makes more sense to me than just listening to my parents say not to touch the stove. Jane was a lot like me and she burned her hand. And of course the humanity that books and stories relate. If I were in a post apocalyptic setting and only had enough food for my family to survive would I turn people away? I don't know. But it gives me something to consider and makes me think about the kind of person I am.
I believe it also gives us a boundary or perhaps a guide to show us what will happen if..... How far can we push and still get away with....(insert word).
Candace wrote: "I enjoyed this book. It reminded me of Shadow of the Wind by Carlos Ruiz Zafón which is another captivating book if you haven't read it."I just began reading, but I had the same impression. It will be interesting to see how the story unfolds...
This is a wonderful book in the best of British mystery traditions. I enjoyed it so much that I gave three of our daughters their own copy to read.
K.P. wrote: "This is a wonderful book in the best of British mystery traditions. I enjoyed it so much that I gave three of our daughters their own copy to read."I will be giving it to my friend for her birthday! I loved it:)
I loved this book. My friends and I read it all at about the same time.
jennbunny wrote: "I loved this book. My friends and I read it all at about the same time."I have those same panties...LMAO!
LOL. It was part of my Halloween costume (cop costume). I love them and hope to find more when Halloween rolls around again.
Finally finished it!***SPOILERS****
I think its hard to judge the time period Margaret is in. Even though she uses pen and paper, shes a little bookish and quirky and might just not use those resources. Aurelius' father, the gardener, went to war but I don't think it specified which.
@Becky. I felt the same way about Margarets dead twin, that story seemed forced but I think the author needed to connect her to Vida's story. Otherwise, I was kind of like... stop whining!
Besides, for the readers sake of a twist, why did Vida hide who she was in the story? She talked about a beggining, middle, and end... and she skipped her whole entrance except for hints of ghosts.
I almost wonder if it was Adeline who was pulled from the fire. If the fire killed Emmeline, that would explain why it destroyed Vida's life more. Wouldn't they have gotten the baby back then? Though whoever was saved from the fire snapped a little, but was anyone right in the head in this book?
Overall, I liked the book and it kept me engaged. The ending was satisfying as well, I liked reading the stories but I was very curious how they'd end it!
Mod
But over all, I loved the book. It's one that really makes you think about things, not just the story, but also your perception and perspective on life.
Mod
*****Spoiler*****Rachel wrote: "Isn't her real name Adeline? "Real" of course in quotes... you have to wonder if Vida is again making up another story, maybe too sick to do her own writing, maybe trying a new twist by hiring a "..."
I think it is common for twins to develop their own language. My 2 aunts had their own language. It's very interesting. But you are right children left to their own devices will cause a lot of trouble.
Mod
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Rachel's Comment, which has Spoilers!
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Rachel wrote: "Isn't her real name Adeline? "Real" of course in quotes... you have to wonder if Vida is again making up another story, maybe too sick to do her own writing, maybe trying a new twist by hiring a "biographer". But if Adeline is Vida, then it's interesting to see how she tells her story - the mean twin, the one who caused trouble, etc. Apparently objective, according to our "biographer", yet how can one be objective about one's own life, and particularly with such a traumatic beginning?
Right now I'm a little angry that the children have been neglected to the point of not being able to speak right - I mean, can't people see that they are running wild, as children will do when left to their own means?? It's so sad, actually..."
Historical Fictionistas
Books mentioned in this topic
The Educated Imagination (other topics)Perfume: The Story of a Murderer (other topics)
The Shadow of the Wind (other topics)
Brethren (other topics)
The Canterbury Papers (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Northrop Frye (other topics)Matilde Asensi (other topics)
Ahh, I didn't think about them being conjoined. Hmm... that does give a different take on things. Although now I think about it, Margaret did have a scar or something, right? Maybe I just forgot. Hmm...