The History Book Club discussion
ROMAN EMPIRE -THE HISTORY...
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9. THE HISTORY OF THE DECLINE AND FALL OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE ~ CHAPTER 9 (230 - 252) (07/06/10 - 07/12/10) ~ No spoilers, please
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I take it that all this information that Gibbon is telling us about the Germans is what he got from the Romans and so is filtered through all their prejudices. I thought they were probably a slash and burn agriculture society as the populations seem high for a purely hunting society
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Roma...The Iron Age in northern Europe is markedly distinct from the Celtic La Tène culture south of it, whose advanced iron-working technology exerted a considerable influence in the north, when, around 600 BC northern people began to extract bog iron from the ore in peat bogs, a technology acquired from their Central European neighbours. The oldest iron objects found have been needles, but edged tools, swords and sickles, are found as well. Bronze continued to be used during the whole period, but was mostly used for decoration.
For what it is worth the Wikipedia article seems to assign more skill to German iron working than Gibbon does (did?)
Mod
Patricrk, do you remember asking the following in Chapter VIII?"What was the point about all the Zoroasterism? Was Gibbon trying to make some point about contemporary European religious practice? "
How do you think Gibbon's soliloquy about Persian spirituality compares to his thoughts on German "superstitions?"
"The religious system of the Germans (if the wild opinions of savages can deserve that name) was dictated by their wants, their fears, and their ignorance. They adored the great visible objects and agents of nature, the Sun and the Moon, the Fire and the Earth; together with those imaginary deities, who were supposed to preside over the most important observations of human life. They were persuaded, that by some ridiculous arts of divination, they could discover the will of the superior beings, and that human sacrifices were the most precious and acceptable offering to their altars."
(I would start a new paragraph here if I were Gibbon's editor)
"Some applause as been hastily bestowed on the sublime notion entertained by that people of the Deity, whom they neither confined within the walls of a temple, nor represented by any human figure; but when we recollect that the Germans were unskilled in architecture, and totally unacquainted with the art of sculpture,* we shall readily assign the true reason of a scruple which arose not so much from a superiority of reason, as from a want of ingenuity. The only temples in Germany were dark and ancient groves, consecrated by the reverence of succeeding generations. Their secret gloom, the imagined residence of an invisble power, by presenting no distinct object of fear or worship, impressed the mind with a still deeper sense of religious horror; and the priests, rude and illiterate as they were, had been taught by experience the use of every artifice that could preserve and fortify impressions so well suited to their own interest.
"The same ignorance which renders barbarians incapable of conceiving or embracing the useful restraints of laws, exposes them naked and unarmed to the blind terrors of superstition. The German priests, improving this favourable temper of their countrymen, had assumed a jurisdiction, even in temporal concerns, which the magistrate could not venture to exercise..."p. 130
I had previously suggested that "Gibbon says some things in the (Chapter IX) that sound a little Thomas Paine-in-France-esque."
I found Gibbon's opinion of German paganism, especially the way it used "religious terror" to keep its subjects in thrall with the priest class as the executives, very similar to Thomas Paine's Age of Reason.** Age of Reason was seen as so hostile to religion that Paine was deported from Britain and settled in France, where he channeled his enthusiasm for the French Revolution into even more radical theological writing. Unlike Paine, Gibbon was not hostile to Christianity (just everything that wasn't Christianity), but I think it's interesting how he railed in such topically similar terms.
*Gibbon could not have known about the "Venuses " of Southern Germany - among the oldest sculpture, still buried, not to be discovered until the 20th century.
**
Thomas Paine
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Thomas Paine
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Patrick wrote: "Patricrk, do you remember asking the following in Chapter VIII?"What was the point about all the Zoroasterism? Was Gibbon trying to make some point about contemporary European religious practic..."
I don't see a lot of difference in the belief system between the two. There are a lot of loaded modifiers in the section on German beliefs. I was wondering if Gibbon was trying to emphasize the backwardness of the Germans as a way to show that the Romans actually did decline and fail because of their internal problems. If they were defeated by primitives then it was because of internal problems. If they were defeated by an advanced society then maybe they didn't decline.
Mod
The History Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
The Age of Reason (other topics)The Age of Reason (other topics)
The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire Volume I (other topics)
Authors mentioned in this topic
Thomas Paine (other topics)Thomas Paine (other topics)
Edward Gibbon (other topics)
This begins the ninth week's reading in our new Spotlighted group discussion.
The complete table of contents is as follows:
SYLLABUS:
Table of Contents
Introduction xi - cvi
A Note on the Text – cvii – cviii
Acknowledgements – cix
Selected Further Readings – cx – cxi
Chronology – cxii –cxiii
Preface – 1 – 4
Advertisement 5
TOC – First Volume
ONE: The Extent and Military Force of the Empire, in the Age of the Antonines p. 31
TWO: Of the Union and Internal Prosperity of the Roman Empire in the Age of the Antonines p. 56
THREE: Of the Constitution of the Roman Empire in the Age of the Antonines p. 85
FOUR: The Cruelty, Follies, and Murder of Commodus – Election of Pertinax – His Attempts to reform the State. – His Assassination by the Pretorian Guards. p. 108
FIVE: Public Sale of the Empire to Didius Julianus by the Praetorian Guards. – Clodius Albinus in Britain, Pescennius Niger in Syria, and Septimius Severus in Pannonia, declare against the Murderers of Pertinax. – Civil Wars and Victory of Severus over his three Rivals. – Relaxation of Discipline, - New Maxims of Government. p. 127
SIX: The Death of Severus. – Tyranny of Caracellaa. – Usurpation of Macrinus. – Follies of Elagabulus. – Virtues of Alexander Severus. – Licentiousness of the Army. – General State of the Roman Finances. – p. 149
SEVEN: The Elevation and Tyranny of Maximin. – Rebellion in Africa and Italy, under the Authority of the Senate. – Civil Wars and Seditions. – Violent Deaths of Maximin and his Son, of Maximus and Balbinus, and of the three Gordians. – surpation and secular Games of Philip. p. 187
EIGHT: Of the State of Persia after the Restoration of the Monarchy of Artaxerxes p. 213
NINE: The State of Germany till the Invasion of the Barbarians, in the Time of the Emperor Decius. p. 230
TEN: The Emperor Decius, Gallus, Aemilianus, Valerian, and Gallienus. – The general Irruption of the Barbarians, - The thirty Tyrants. p. 253
ELEVEN: Reign of Claudius. – Defeat of the Goths. – Victories, Triumph, and Death of Aurelian. p. 295
TWELVE: Conduct of the Army and Senate after the Death of Aurelian. – Reigns of Tacitus, Probus, Carus, and his Sons. P. 327
THIRTEEN: The Reign of Diocletian and his three Associates, Maximian, Galerius, and Constantius, - General Re-establishment of Order and Tranquility. – The Persian War, Victory and Triumph. – The New Form of Administration. – Abdication and Retirement of Diocletian and Maximian. p. 358
FOURTEEN: Troubles after the Abdication of Diocletian. – Death of Constantius. – Elevation of Constantine and Maxentius. – Six Emperors at the Same Time. – Death of Maximian and Galerius. – Victories of Constantine over Maxentius and Licinius. – Re-union of the Empire under the Authority of Constantine. p. 400
FIFTEEN: The Progress of the Christian Religion, and the Sentiments, Manners, Numbers, and Condition of the primitive Christians. p. 446
SIXTEEN: The Conduct of the Roman Government towards the Christians, from the Reign of Nero to that of Constantine. p. 514
Appendix I – 1084 - 1105
Note: This is a group membership selected book.
The assignment for this ninth week includes the following segments/pages:
WEEK NINE: The State of Germany till the Invasion of the Barbarians, in the Time of the Emperor Decius. p. 230 - 252
We look forward to your participation; but remember this is a non spoiler thread.
We will open up threads for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers.
This book was kicked off on May 10th. This will be the ninth week's assignment for this book.
We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library.
A special welcome to those who will be newcomers to this discussion and thank you to those who have actively contributed on the previous Spotlighted book selection. We are glad to have you all.
Welcome,
~Bentley
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