Goodreads Librarians Group discussion
Book & Author Page Issues
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Books LLC
I've been wondering this too. I can't tell if they're a book subscription service, possibly somewhat shady, or what.
I found a listing that I was curious about too. It must be some sort of subscription service, since the book in question was being advertised with a password for special bonus content or something. They're coming from amazon's updates...
Ah ha -- at least one other person thinks they're something I was wondering about -- printed copies of Wikipedia articles. (Appalling.) Sadly, I don't think we can not-a-book these -- but I'd love to be able to do so.
If they are articles and we could NAB them, it would be so easy. All that would be necessary to do would be to merge the entire author with the NOT A BOOK author.
Mod
They ARE books, technically. And should not be NAB'd. And they are hardly the only such "author".
True enough -- I've come across others -- but Books LLC seems to be a big-time offender, so to speak, when it comes to "polluting" searches with irrelevant results.
Sorry I missed the last post.(I really miss the discussion search ...)
Mod
Sherry wrote: "I really miss the discussion search ..."
Also agreed!
Is it possible to define, or make, an exception in specific, obvious cases of Cra.? This is really no better than spam. I'm tossing this one out for discussion.
According to C. J. Cherryh Books LLC is an illegal book publisher operating out of India, they are selling illegal collections of her - and others - books on Amazon, which I guess is why the are suddenly authors or publishers of over 60.000 books here.http://www.cherryh.com/WaveWithoutASh...
I have renamed them accordingly and advised her as copyright holder to send a DMCA notice to GoodReads.com
Estara wrote: "According to C. J. Cherryh Books LLC is an illegal book publisher operating out of India, they are selling illegal collections of her - and others - books on Amazon, which I guess is why the are su..."A DMCA notice to Goodreads won't do anything. DMCA notices are to be sent to pirates and sites that are hosting pirated material, neither of which Goodreads are.
Hey, folks, piracy is bad, but there isn't any proof that it's going on here. Books LLC's main business is in Wikipedia hardcopies, which are perfectly legitimate. Does anyone have any proof that they're also pirating in-copyright works?In a separate issue, there are a lot of people reviewing the Wikipedia reprints as if they were the fiction books which are the subject of the reprinted nonfiction articles -- normally I tend to just leave users' reviews on the wrong books if they can't be bothered to look at what they're reviewing, but these books seem to be importing with extremely confusing summaries and I think it would be nice to do the combine-delete-reimport thing to shift them over onto the actual fiction books.
Also, it does no good to change the name of the author from "Books LLC" if you want to keep information in the author profile; books continue to be imported from Amazon with "Books LLC" as the author name.The merged profile is here now:
http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/...
Ralph wrote: "Estara wrote: "According to C. J. Cherryh Books LLC is an illegal book publisher operating out of India, they are selling illegal collections of her - and others - books on Amazon, which I guess is..."So what does this part of the GoodReads TOS mean then?
"Please note that this procedure is exclusively for notifying Goodreads and its affiliates that your copyrighted material has been infringed. The preceding requirements are intended to comply with Goodreads’s rights and obligations under the DMCA, including 17 U.S.C. §512(c), but do not constitute legal advice. It may be advisable to contact an attorney regarding your rights and obligations under the DMCA and other applicable laws.
In accordance with the DMCA and other applicable law, Goodreads has adopted a policy of terminating, in appropriate circumstances and at Goodreads’s sole discretion, members who are deemed to be repeat infringers. Goodreads may also at its sole discretion limit access to the Service and/or terminate the accounts of any Users who infringe any intellectual property rights of others, whether or not there is any repeat infringement."
Cait wrote: " Does anyone have any proof that..."Well, C.J. Cherryh has, which is why I linked to her post about this.
Estara wrote: "Ralph wrote: "Estara wrote: "According to C. J. Cherryh Books LLC is an illegal book publisher operating out of India, they are selling illegal collections of her - and others - books on Amazon, wh..."That part of the TOS refers to any copyright infringement that are /on/ this site. Books LLC is not affiliated with Goodreads, so sending them a DMCA takedown notice is pointless since Goodreads does /not/ host any of this material on their site.
Ralph wrote: "Estara wrote: "Ralph wrote: "Estara wrote: "According to C. J. Cherryh Books LLC is an illegal book publisher operating out of India, they are selling illegal collections of her - and others - book..."Ah, thanks for explaining. So if they had a user account that would make sense, but not the way it is now.
Cait wrote: "Does anyone have any proof that..."Estara wrote: "Well, C.J. Cherryh has, which is why I linked to her post about this."
I don't know what proof she's obtained, but I am concerned that she's made the same mistake that some of the users on GR regularly make and confused a nonfiction book about a novel with a copy of the novel itself. For example, Fantasy Novels by C.J. Cherryh, a book by Books LLC, is a short collection of Wikipedia articles about those novels.
Cait wrote: "Cait wrote: "I don't know what proof she's obtained, but I am concerned t..."Fair enough - I guess you didn't read the comments in the post I linked to, but I can quote her in-depth explanation for you - highlights are my own.
I am hoping Amazon will pull this seller off their site. They are also part of other mass-market sites, notably from India, and I wouldn’t be surprised to find them on things like the mass shopping sites in the US…if not now, very soon. Amazon’s got some major weaknesses, imho, in their accepting people as sellers. Keep an eye out for this seller, or for anybody using their promo spiel, which could be them in another guise: this is a quote from what they are advertising on Amazon: THIS IS THE TEXT THAT IS THEIR OPERATION: IF IT HAS THIS, IT’S BOOKS LLC.
“Purchase includes free access to book updates online and a free trial membership in the publisher’s book club where you can select from more than a million books without charge. Chapters: Science Fiction Book Series by C. J. Cherryh, the Chanur Novels, Finisterre Universe, Downbelow Station, Foreigner Universe, Cyteen, Serpent’s Reach, the Morgaine Stories, Gate of Ivrel, Finity’s End, Cloud’s Rider, Faded Sun Trilogy, Cuckoo’s Egg, Tripoint, Merchanter’s Luck, Rider at the Gate, Well of Shiuan, Forty Thousand in Gehenna, Alternate Realities, Rimrunners, Fires of Azeroth, Regenesis, the Gene Wars Universe, the Scapegoat, Hestia, the Merchanter Novels, Brothers of Earth, Devil to the Belt, Hunter of Worlds, Exile’s Gate, Wave Without a Shore, Voyager in Night, Port Eternity, the Faded Sun: Shon’jir, the Faded Sun: Kesrith, the Faded Sun: Kutath, the Kif Strike Back, the Pride of Chanur, Forge of Heaven, Hammerfall, Conspirator, Deliverer, Foreigner, Invader, Pretender, Defender, Destroyer, Explorer, Inheritor, Precursor, Angel With the Sword, Chanur’s Homecoming, Chanur’s Legacy, Chanur’s Venture, Heavy Time, Hellburner. Excerpt: Alternate Realities Alternate Realities is an omnibus collection from 2000 of three short science fiction novels by science fiction and fantasy author C. J. Cherryh . The three books included in this anthology are: Wave Without a Shore (1981), Port Eternity (1982), and Voyager in Night (1984). All three novels are set in Cherryh’s Alliance-Union universe and share a common theme of people encountering and coping with a reality different from their own.The original books as well as the omnibus edition were all published by DAW Books . The novels are what Cherryh and her publisher at DAW, Donald A. Wollheim , referred to as “magic cookie” books. Such works explore unusual themes and ideas in science fiction, and can in some sense be seen as thought experiments . Wollheim encouraged Cherryh to experiment in this way during the late 1970s an…”
I would have thought that this means that once you're subscribed, you have access to the books. Two other commenters on her post are of your opinion, so I've reported what has been said here and all the changes to their listing in GoodReads.com
I would have thought that this means that once you're subscribed, you have access to the books.Which books? Books LLC has a huge collection of Wikipedia articles and reprints of out-of-copyright classic fiction. All of the information on their website suggests that those are the books to which the book club gives you access. There's absolutely nothing illegal about selling a collection of articles about C.J. Cherryh and including with the purchase a trial membership to a book club which includes more articles about C.J. Cherryh.
Cait wrote: "Which books? Books LLC has a huge collection of Wikipedia articles and reprints of out-of-copyright..."Yes, I get that you think this is the case.
I highlighted in the quote wording which I think doesn't make that clear, but implies they are talking about the in-copyright books themselves.
Whether you are right or not, I see this as a scam in any case - as I'm sure most people who join a bookclub will expect to read the in-copyright books mentioned - ,so either the Wikpedia contributors not mentioned as authors are ripped off or - if they turn out to sell actual books by writers - the writers of in-copyright books.
In the Wikipedia case the customers are burned, in the second case it's the authors.
The Wikipedia contributors aren't "ripped off." As long as these articles are cited in the books, it's legal. Yes, they are preying on people who think they are getting real books, and it sounds scammy, but it is legal. As much as I wish they didn't exist, this really is not the forum to be fighting this as GR is only cataloging them. You are better off arguing this with the marketplace putting these up for sale, presumably Amazon. Using public domain information/books for profit is actually very common. You'll see many ebooks here that are being sold even though they are available in PD for free in ebook.
Jessica wrote: "You are better off arguing this with the marketplace putting these up for sale, presumably Amazon. " Agreed. C.J. Cherryh and Betsy Wollheim are now doing exactly that. Mostly I posted in this thread to get feedback on the changes I had made and on your take on the case. And to relate back to C.J. Cherryh - who doesn't have the time to be a librarian here, so can't read what you know about this - what the GoodReads stand is on the situation.
The way I understand it from previous comments, GoodReads views these "books" as valid entries into the database; the general explanation as I understand it (could be wrong) is that if it has an ISBN number, it's a book. From a personal point of view, I think the "authors" of these books should be identified in some way *not a book or something and taken out of the lists of results one gets when searching for a topic or author. As mentioned, searching for an author, say Charlaine Harris, will return a result from Books LLC or whoever which is not her books, but descriptions of the books.
I don't think including these entries sends the right message to people doing the searches, particularly kids or the less than knowledgeable adults out there who think these results are valid for the topic or the result of someones independent research.
Even more offensive to me:
I esp. don't like the inclusion of material in the public domain with a sales message--it's a rip off for people to buy this material when it is available for free from so many sources. Unfortunately, many people aren't aware of that and will get taken. For me, to have GR promote these items, however passively, is wrong.
It just seems to me that these "sources" and there are several of them could be blocked upon import, or, if that's not possible, marked in a distinctive way to alert people to the potential rip off they are.
I totally agree with you about disliking the material, but is it GoodReads job to police that sort of thing? We can't really remove books because we don't like the message they send. That's a very slippery slope.I think it would be appropriate and helpful to have some kind of description for these, and especially to remove their sales pitch from the book descriptions.
I know, that's the problem I see with it too. Given some of the heavily adult oriented material on the site, which I don't like myself but would never think should be censored, I have any brilliant suggestions. I still think they (Books LLC, etc) could be segregated somehow (though I don't know exactly how). They can't be called NAB because they are a book in some eyes. Maybe something like "RIPOFF BEWARE" in the author's block :)
I don't know. They just bug me.
And when I do come across them I remove the sales pitch if I think of it.
Oh well if this is the worst problem we have life can't be too bad.
How about something like a standard line for the descriptions that includes "This material is also available free from Wikipedia"? Factual, not overtly judgmental, but gets the point across. :-)
Possibly just a little more tactful than my suggestion.....
MissJessie and willaful, that is likely much more effective than my impulsive actions.(MissJessie, I had at one point changed the name of Books LLC to indicated just that ^^).
You'd think, on a website that's all about reading, that people would read the descriptions of the books that they're reviewing, yeah? Yeah. If you ever need to lose some faith in humanity, try reading the reviews on the piano scores for the soundtracks of the movies made from the Harry Potter books.
willaful wrote: "How about something like a standard line for the descriptions that includes "This material is also available free from Wikipedia"? Factual, not overtly judgmental, but gets the point across. :-)"You couldn't put that in the Books LLC author profile, because not all of their works are Wikipedia-sourced. Many are just public domain books. If librarians want to put that in the individual records of Wikipedia-sourced books, I think they should feel free to, but it seems like a big waste of time to me.
Goodreads can't babysit users. If people are shelving the wrong book, that's their problem. It ought to be a big hint that the author is "Books LLC" and not "Jane Austen" or "Mark Twain" or whatever.
Although, now that I've just typed that, I'm thinking it does make sense to add a mention of Wiki to their profile. Since the part about public domain books is already there. I updated it....
http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/...
Cait, you made me laugh out loud. And that's been a rare commodity around here these days.LobGrl, babysitting isn't my point, although I think it doesn't hurt to bear in mind that many people aren't particularly sophisticated in computer results, and can't recognize garbage when they see it. Call me idealistic, but I don't see why GR has to willingly include known garbage as if it were a good result just because it is a "BOOK" by some limited standard. After all, calendars are bound and have an ISBN number, they aren't books and are so marked. Ditto blank journals, etc. And these things are pretty darn obvious. The LLC and so on stuff isn't so obvious, and yet it still is included. Inconsistent.
My main point is all the crappy so called results that show up when one is looking for information about a subject, or an author or whatever. It's the infernal clutter and endless pages of garbage that I don't like at all.
EDIT" "This material is also available for free from Wikipedia or other public domain sources."
If no one has a serious objection to us spending our own time on adding it to the descriptions (we'll be in there removing the ads, anyway), I say lets do it.
An example of Books LLC weirdness. Here's a wiki compilation about diesel locomotives, which someone has shelved as "fiction" and "teen." http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/85...
Lobstergirl wrote: "An example of Books LLC weirdness. Here's a wiki compilation about diesel locomotives, which someone has shelved as "fiction" and "teen." http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/85......"
I have a feeling that there was a bad merge in there somewhere, although something like that ought to be showing up in the logs.... :(
Or, just a person with a weird sense of humor; or, there's no accounting for taste (or lack thereof).People are odd.
MissJessie wrote: "Even more offensive to me:I esp. don't like the inclusion of material in the public domain with a sales message--it's a rip off for people to buy this material when it is available for free from so many sources. Unfortunately, many people aren't aware of that and will get taken. For me, to have GR promote these items, however passively, is wrong.
An awful lot of mainstream and newer publishers take public domain material and sell it for a profit. Penguin Classics, Oxford World Classics, Dover, CreateSpace, ReadHowYouWant, Dodo. And this is just a drop in the bucket. Plenty of people want to purchase these books as opposed to getting a free e-book of the work.
All too true. Look at all the Dickens, Austen, etc. that people buy every year for school use just for one thing.
I'd rather buy a book than get a free e-book. I've tried and can't stand reading without the book in my hand. I don't listen to audio books for that reason and haven't yet spent the money on a Kindle. (Thinking about trying the last one though but I doubt it'll go over well.)
I've considered Kindle myself, since I travel but it just isn't the same, is it? Probably will give in someday though, but not anytime soon.As to free books, if it's something I just want to skim through to see if it appeals, etc., I'll have a go. But not for keepers of course.
I'm trying to figure out what this one is, so I can update the description: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/83...Is it sample chapters from the books? Surely not the books themselves, it's only 26 pages and they're not out of copyright.
OT - I inherited my husband's iTouch and the kindle app is just awesome for traveling, especially with the incredible ease of loading free/inexpensive books. We had to travel very light recently and I don't know how I would have managed without it.
willaful wrote: "I'm trying to figure out what this one is, so I can update the description: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/83...Is it sample chapters from the books? Surely not the boo..."
It's Wikipedia summaries and discussion of the series. Each chapter is a summary and discussion of a different book in the series.
Just wondering, how do you know? How do they make any money when you can't tell what they're selling?!Also, who do we put for the author? I know we don't want a publisher name, but it's deceptive to have it be MJD. Some people have mistakenly rated it.
That's what they all are, when they're titled with a bunch of fiction book titles and have a chapter for each book -- it's a little clearer on the Books LLC website, but really badly formatted everywhere else.My vote is for leaving the author as Books LLC, perhaps with an "editor" (or "compiler"?) role.
Over 10,000 books.
What/who is this?