Our History discussion
What field of history interests you?
"I think there is less known about the relationship between the military/industrial complex and the government/economy than the actual workings among the three branches of the federal government."This is exactly what our President Dwight David Eisenhower warned against at the end of WWII. Unfortunately, nobody was listening.
“………….we would need an educated population willing to fight for their rights and republic and we would need representatives who did not owe their souls to corporations.”Yes, I think this is very true Joan. There is only true democracy when the electorate is educated enough to make informed decisions. Without this we are at the mercy of the ad men and the spin-doctors. Those that are drawing from a shallow base of knowledge are more easily swayed by the unscrupulous. I am sure the spin-doctors stayed up until the wee small hours of the morning in order to whip George Bush into shape, and get him ready for the public. But it worked, and he was groomed, packaged, marketed, and sold.
I think that there is generally less interest these days in civic life and politics than there has been in the past, in both the US and in Canada. Here in Canada, we are looking at a federal election probably this fall, the fourth in about five years. Many here are whining and whimpering over this, as though their freedom and opportunity to express their political desires isn’t worth the time it will take to follow another campaign, and to register their vote. I think that this displays a lack of understanding of civic life. Many here assume, or at least hope, that politicians are merely managers that will take care of business, and it doesn’t make a huge amount of difference which party is in power. There are often no cut and dried answers to important social questions however. There are often no right or wrong, but certainly differing viewpoints, and so agreement must come from consensus derived from study, dialogue, and debate. People will have different views, and these must be thrashed out. There are many ways to organize society, and opting out might leave us with a system we really did not want.
Saying just get on with it, and don’t bore me with the details can set up a dangerous situation. Because there are many who will “get on with it”: those who hope for personal gain, such as the corporate CEOs that are prominent in society today, or those with a set of beliefs they are driven to implement, such as the Christian right. Who knows what we might get in the future if there are no hard questions asked, or if we have no serious, intelligent, informed debate during the political process?
I try not to paint all politicians, corporate CEO's, union leaders, or lawyers as the same. We had a lecture from a bank lobbyist in a health administration course a few years ago. He was specifically speaking of Canada but it could apply to many countries. There are three powerful groups in Canadian society. Big Business, government bureaucracy, and politicians. (Sorry big unions do not make the list) The "media" controls the message about these three groups which makes it very difficult for the individual to know what's going on unless he is diligent and uses as many sources as possible.
At the present time, I would think our present Canadian minority government weakens the politicians position and increases the power of the bureaucracy. (I do not believe we are going to have an election this fall. The the media wants to sell newspapers and have something to talk about on T.V. The new Unemployment Insurance legislation is too important) With limited financial resources big business is not doing as well either. In some ways I like a minority government as compromise is more necessary to govern. Unfortunately contentious issues are sometimes left until a majority government exists.
I still have faith in representative government. Theoretically they should be better informed. Direct democracy is more time consuming and costly. I have seen no evidence that California is any further ahead with their propositions. As I said before, the public is just as guilty of looking after number one first as politicians or CEO's. The later can just do a lot more damage if they have the wrong motives.
The only answer I can see is more people getting involved in the political process. There are lots of opportunities to be a volunteer in any political party or cause. If you don't get involved you can't complain about the outcome. I think it is just a little too easy to say we are only little guys and can't make a difference.
When it's personal, it gives you a different perspective. I was the best man for a friend who has been an active NDP (Democratic Socialist)his entire adult life. He has been elected in local politics for most of the time. Intelligent(PhD) , socially responsible and and idealist. I do not agree with his party most of the time (they're Liberals in a big hurry). I'm afraid of the far left in that party, but I'm more comfortable knowing that at least one reasonable man I personally know belongs to the party and has input. I've been active to a limited degree in a couple of parties (one provincial , one federal), and a mayor's race in a small town . I generally found it a worthwhile experience. We should worry less and get involved more.
At the present time, I would think our present Canadian minority government weakens the politicians position and increases the power of the bureaucracy. (I do not believe we are going to have an election this fall. The the media wants to sell newspapers and have something to talk about on T.V. The new Unemployment Insurance legislation is too important) With limited financial resources big business is not doing as well either. In some ways I like a minority government as compromise is more necessary to govern. Unfortunately contentious issues are sometimes left until a majority government exists.
I still have faith in representative government. Theoretically they should be better informed. Direct democracy is more time consuming and costly. I have seen no evidence that California is any further ahead with their propositions. As I said before, the public is just as guilty of looking after number one first as politicians or CEO's. The later can just do a lot more damage if they have the wrong motives.
The only answer I can see is more people getting involved in the political process. There are lots of opportunities to be a volunteer in any political party or cause. If you don't get involved you can't complain about the outcome. I think it is just a little too easy to say we are only little guys and can't make a difference.
When it's personal, it gives you a different perspective. I was the best man for a friend who has been an active NDP (Democratic Socialist)his entire adult life. He has been elected in local politics for most of the time. Intelligent(PhD) , socially responsible and and idealist. I do not agree with his party most of the time (they're Liberals in a big hurry). I'm afraid of the far left in that party, but I'm more comfortable knowing that at least one reasonable man I personally know belongs to the party and has input. I've been active to a limited degree in a couple of parties (one provincial , one federal), and a mayor's race in a small town . I generally found it a worthwhile experience. We should worry less and get involved more.
Forgive me for bring in a cliche` but this whole conversation keeps me hearing my Grandfather's oft expressed contention that "Bad politicians are elected by good people who don't vote."Personally, I think that anyone who does not vote, regardless of for whom they vote in a free country is a disgrace to their nation.
To quote another cliche`, "Politics begins with the local School Board."
To GlenThank you for the informative comments on the Canadian government. I learned a lot.
You wrote: “At the end of WWI, there was little noticeable war damage in Germany and poor understanding of why the German military surrendered.”
Very true. This was one of Hitler’s big messages but the full story is little know here in the US. Leaders in Germany, like Hindenburg and Ludendorff could see that Germany was going to lose the WWI because they were running out of material and men and both the US and Russia were tipping the balance. At that time no foreign soldiers were on German soil and German soldiers were deep in France. (Why would the German people believe they were losing the war?) German leadership did not want to wait for French and British soldiers to be in Germany so Kaiser Wilhelm sent back channel diplomats to Washington. They wanted to surrender to President Wilson and his 14 points for peace because they knew France and England would tear Germany apart. (At this time the nation state of Germany was only 50 years old) Wilson said he would only negociate with a free democratic people. So, the Kaiser said, for the good of the country he would abdicate. He also insisted that all the lesser aristocracy step down and a democracy be formed. It was one of the fasted and most peaceful “regime changes” ever. The democrats were delighted and ran off to Weimar to set up the constitution and elect representatives. Then, the representatives of the new government went to Versailles to negociate peace. France and England soon sent Wilson home and trashed his 14 points. The only concession he got was the League of Nations and when he got home his own congress trashed that. The Treaty of Versailles concluded that Germany had started the war, lost the war and would have to pay for the war. (A wonderful example of how history is written by the victors,) There was a reason Britain and France insisted on the huge reparations from Germany. They both were deeply in debt to the US for the war and were just about bankrupt. The US Congress insisted on full payment. The bankrupt allies decided it had to come out of Germany. For being saddled with this treaty, Hitler branded the democrats the “November Criminals.” It was a wonderful term he could use to vilify any and all groups and blame them all for Germany’s troubles. It was easy to convice people who knew German Soldiers did not retreat, but marched home under orders, that the surrender was an act of treachery.
You also mentioned the hyperinflation. Here is the surprise. The hyperinflation only lasted 11 months, from Jan 1923 until Nov. 1923 and it didn’t arise from the Treaty. It happened after the war and after the treaty, in response to the Jan 1923 invasion by the French and Belgians when they seized the Ruhr Valley with it’s industries, transportation and coal production. Important things were triggered by this, but this comment is getting long, so I will save that for later.
You also said, “With the size of the USA military, I can understand why many Americans don't want to give up their firearms. I think there is less known about the relationship between the military/industrial complex and the government/economy than the actual workings among the three branches of the federal government.”
You are so right, however, I don’t think hanging on to the old family squirrel rifle will do a citizen much good.
To GeoffYou and Glen, both from Canada, have given me new information on the Government there. Thank you.
In Germany, the year before Hitler took power, there were nine elections and the people were tired of them. In addition, thier parliament had many parties and had trouble putting together votes to get things done. Do either of you see a problem for Canada in this?
To PeggyThe scary part is that the Germans did vote---66 percent against Hitler. Voting wasn't enough.
Joan wrote: "To GeoffYou and Glen, both from Canada, have given me new information on the Government there. Thank you.
In Germany, the year before Hitler took power, there were nine elections and the peo..."
I don’t see a big problem with parliament itself. The British parliamentary system has been honed and refined over the years, and generally stumbles along in a satisfactory, if imperfect, manner.
Apathy and a lack of knowledge are much bigger problems, I would say.
In the Canadian system, a governing political party must have the “confidence of parliament” in order to form a government and govern. If opposing parties can effectively demonstrate that they do not have the support of parliament, then the Governor General can dissolve the house and call for either an alternative government, based on the opposition parties, or new elections. This doesn’t happen very often, but it did just recently, when the current conservative government lost a confidence vote. Instead of the above procedure being applied by the G.G., the prime minister managed to argue, convince, beg, plead, or strong arm his way out of it during a private meeting. We will probably never know. Many in Canada were outraged because they never knew that the Governor General had this power. They only found out because of the swirl of media attention caused by the vote and resulting P.M./ G.G. meeting. This is however, how the system works, and has since 1867, and before that in British tradition.
Glen briefly mentioned the referendum on proportional representation recently held in BC. This would have been part of the honing process, giving a fairer translation of votes into seats in parliament. I worked at a polling station during that vote, and had many, many people ask questions that indicated that they did not understand the issue in question at all. Never the less, they voted, not really knowing what they were voting for, or against.
Jerry wrote: "This is what The Blackened Canteen is about and Of War and Weddings too. Jerry YellinI landed my P-51 on Iwo Jima on March 7,1945 after the Marines cleared the area around a dirt air strip. For th..."
War truly is madness Jerry. My father also flew in combat during WW2, and I know did much that he did not want to have to do.
And war has a way of changing little. The players are changed around, but the world goes on as before. Germany and Japan were adversaries during the war, but are now cornerstones of the world community.
After France’s defeat in 1940, many in that country, in the military anyway, sided with the axis through the Vichy government. Many bitter battles were fought with British and other allied forces in Dakar, Syria, Madagascar, and North Africa. At one point during the conflict, strategists in Washington and London even considered a military occupation and allied control of France after the war, along the same lines as what was planned for Germany.
There is no inherent enemy, only those that can be defined as “other” at particular point, and for a particular reason in history. If we look back far enough in history, it is easy to see that participants are interchangeable.
In a recent conversation, it was thought that with today's children connecting to "friends" all over the world through the WWW there might come a time when "other" refers only to species from off planet.History does cycle back eventually but the clans keep getting bigger.
Geoff, Germany and Japan were adversaries of the United States, this could be misinterpreted in your comment. The only progress we have made as Humans since David killed Goliath with a slingshot and a pebble 5000 plus years ago is invent better slingshots and better pebbles. The 1945 Pebble took 4000 years of Japanese history of a Divine Emperor out of the fantasy and myth category that gave them reason to kill, rape, commit atrocities and start wars with impunity. Their belief system was shattered into reality, all Humans are the same. Today the belief systems of countries, individuals, political parties and they worship of deities that separate us will lead to the delivery of the 2009 Pebble that will destroy humanity.
Geoff has already commented on your question. I too, do not fear too many parties as it is very difficult to establish another national party in Canada . We basically have three right now and a separatist party in Quebec. The Green Party had yet to win a seat in the National House.
I worry more if it is practically impossible to establish another party. I do not believe two is always enough. The minority government of Pearson introduced Medicare and the Canada Pension Plan. Two parties were close enough in principle to make this change which was desired by the public at large.
The Governor General allowing the Conservative government to end the session of parliament until winter and to stay in power was within her rights. Canadians watch too much American television. A coalition government which included Liberals, NDP, and the separatist party of Quebec was not logical and would create serious alienation in western Canada which has had little say in the federal government for 40 years.
It is interesting to note that this political event (the Governor General's decision) caused the Liberal Party (the official opposition party) to choose a new leader (in an unconventional way) very quickly and broke the coalition before it was hardly established. Reason: Political polls in western Canada would indicate the Liberal party would lose the west for another generation.
The NDP would have the best chance of gaining seats in the west with the coalition. The traditional governing party of Canada (Liberals) could go the way of the Liberal government in England. I think the Liberals did not want to risk so much to form a short term minority government. NDP supporters were particularly disappointed as the Liberals had made a serious political error in agreeing on the coalition.
The NDP may now have to support the Conservatives (odd match) as they are afraid a new election will send a lot of NDP to another party (probably Liberals) as that is the most likely way to defeat the Conservatives. Right now the Conservatives probably have about a 5 point lead on the Liberals. In other words, it is very close.
I worry more if it is practically impossible to establish another party. I do not believe two is always enough. The minority government of Pearson introduced Medicare and the Canada Pension Plan. Two parties were close enough in principle to make this change which was desired by the public at large.
The Governor General allowing the Conservative government to end the session of parliament until winter and to stay in power was within her rights. Canadians watch too much American television. A coalition government which included Liberals, NDP, and the separatist party of Quebec was not logical and would create serious alienation in western Canada which has had little say in the federal government for 40 years.
It is interesting to note that this political event (the Governor General's decision) caused the Liberal Party (the official opposition party) to choose a new leader (in an unconventional way) very quickly and broke the coalition before it was hardly established. Reason: Political polls in western Canada would indicate the Liberal party would lose the west for another generation.
The NDP would have the best chance of gaining seats in the west with the coalition. The traditional governing party of Canada (Liberals) could go the way of the Liberal government in England. I think the Liberals did not want to risk so much to form a short term minority government. NDP supporters were particularly disappointed as the Liberals had made a serious political error in agreeing on the coalition.
The NDP may now have to support the Conservatives (odd match) as they are afraid a new election will send a lot of NDP to another party (probably Liberals) as that is the most likely way to defeat the Conservatives. Right now the Conservatives probably have about a 5 point lead on the Liberals. In other words, it is very close.
I have started another topic on the book The Great upheaval by Jay Winik. I am new to this site and not sure where it went but think it went to a different spot than this history one so to my friend here I am going to copy it here.Jay Winik's book , The Great Upheaval is written in a style that is very readable and in places even waxes poetic. Quotable lines abound. It also comes as close as any history I have read to viewing the birth of the current age in a way that is similar to my views. He covers the American and French revolutions and the resulting upheaval of the autocratic forms of government that had existed without challenge for over 2000 years. His detailed description of in the improbable success of a handful of political idealists who created this wonderful change in the world structure is a joy to read.
I take the view a bit further and include a third revolution (the Russian revolution) and also the coinciding Evolution of Power. That transition of power was a natural result of the upheaval Winik tells so well. As monarchies lost power and wealth, corporations and other capitalistic forms gained in wealth and power. We are now left with a world-wide power structure best defined in a quote that is widely attributed to Mussolini, that Fascism should be called Corporatism because it is the marriage of state power and corporate power.
PRESS RELEASE, For Immediate Release
September 28, 2009
Jerry Yellin
5250 E Harbor Village Dr.
Vero Beach, FL 32967
772-563-0414
Vero Beach resident, 85 year old Jerry Yellin wins Branson Literary Award.
Yellin was the winner of the prestigious Stars and Flags Award for his book, The Blackened Canteen in Historical Fiction. The announcement was made on September 27.
This story is fiction based on facts about five Americans and three Japanese men whose lives intertwined after the bombing of Shizuoka, Japan on June 20, 1945. It begins in 1941, before Pearl Harbor and failed negotiations by Prince Konoye of Japan and Cordell Hull, American Secretary of State, leads to war and follows the lives of the characters until present day.
Jack O’Connor, Newton Towle, Monroe Cohen, and Ken Colli enlist in the Air Corps and become members of B-29 crews. Richard Fiske is the bugler on the West Virginia. Fukumatsu Itoh, a 49-year-old Shizuoka City council member, Hiroya Sugano, 12 years old in 1945 and Takeshi Maeda, A Japanese flyer who drops the torpedo that sinks the battleship West Virginia are the featured characters in the book.
Yellin was a fighter pilot who flew missions over Japan from Iwo Jima. He knew 16 young men who died in combat during the war. He hated the Japanese all of his adult life. On March 6, 1988, he attended a wedding between the daughter of a Japanese Imperial Air Force veteran and his youngest son, Robert. This wedding between children of former enemies made him rethink, not only of his life as a warrior, but the lives of all of who served in combat. Today he has three grandchildren living in Japan, aged 19, 17, and 13. “They love me, I love them,” he says, and I cannot help feeling that all of Humanity is the same, that the pure purpose of war is to kill and the pure purpose of life is to connect to all of Nature. It is up to the young people of our World to find a way to eliminate War and find a way to live in Unity with all of Humanity, in Harmony with Nature and find Peace for our Planet.”
Historically correct, The Blackened Canteen is available on the Internet through bn.com or Amazon.com.
An excerpt from Yellin’s memoir, Of War and Weddings, is a finalist in the Military Writers Society of America People Choice Award. Voting will continue until October 5, 2009 at www.MWSAPeoplesChoice.com. The winners in each division will be announced at the MSWA convention in Orlando on October 10.
Great news, Jerry. Way to go!!!!! On word and up word!!
Joan wrote: "I have started another topic on the book The Great upheaval by Jay Winik. I am new to this site and not sure where it went but think it went to a different spot than this history one so to my frien..."“He covers the American and French revolutions and the resulting upheaval of the autocratic forms of government that had existed without challenge for over 2000 years…”
This sounds like an interesting book, but I have to say that I think it is inaccurate to propose that autocracy was unchallenged before the American Revolution.
The struggle for human rights went on in a number of areas, with greater or lesser degrees of success. Iceland had one of the first experiments in democracy; males were represented in an institution called the Allthing as early as 1000 AD. Swiss cantons were holding votes by the end of the thirteenth century. Sweden had a form of parliament by 1450. I’m sure there are many more examples.
One of the longest campaigns for democracy and human rights went on in Britain. The Magna Carta established some basic rights in 1215, and more were wrestled away from the monarchy over the ensuing years. The US based much of its constitution on previous British successes such as the Magna Carta, and the 1689 Bill of Rights. This is not surprising as the inhabitants of the US at the time were essentially Englishmen who were in dispute over the tax system. They were offered representation in parliament (belatedly) by King George, but turned it down.
And the American democracy of 1776 was not, of course, what we would recognize as a democracy today. Only white male landowners could vote, women were excluded from roles of power in society, and it was considered debatable at the time whether blacks were even human. Idealists such as Franklin and Jefferson tried to improve on some of the corruption and shortcomings of the British system, and I suppose did to an extent. But as far as rights went, it was more of an evolution from the British model, rather than a revolution.
In fact US democratic rights evolved more or less in parallel with other major western countries. At times, some were further ahead than others. Britain and France abolished slavery before the US, but the US had some better ideas about the separation of government and the judiciary. New Zealand trumped everyone on voting rights for women, establishing them in 1870.
I would also like to read your new thread if it can be found.
Geoff wrote: I have to say that I think it is inaccurate to propose that autocracy was unchallenged before the American Revolution.You are correct and I should have been more specific. It is not that autocracy was not challenged, rather that the idea of democracy, (the idea that the right to govern resided in the governed), was not part of the challenge. Challenges were made by and for an oligarchy, a small group of nobles, not for the masses. For instance, the nobles who forced King John to sign the Magna Carta on the plains of Runnymede in 1215 had absolutely no intention of extending rights and freedoms to the serfs back home on their estates. In France it came as a shock to many who wrote so beautifully of the rights of man and the age of enlightenment when upstart Americans wrote that there was no “Devine right to rule.” Even a few of our own founders were doubtful that commoners should be entrusted with the right to govern themselves. A few did not want democracy, they wanted a different monarch. (As I watch my fellow citizens I remember that Jefferson warned us that we needed an educated population to have a democracy. Actor, Richard Dreyfus, recently made a speaking tour encouraging schools to do a better job of teaching civics. If anyone knows the name of the group he spoke for, please send it to me. It's a good cause.)
I like to study Texas history, since I am a Texan and like to know my own history. Mainly, I love to read about common men and women who rose to the occasion. Which is the story of Texas heroes. I've learned with American history, you have to study events because studying people gets mired in hero worship and folklore is used as facts. Texas history doesn't do that, unless it is written by a non Texan. wink winkI love to read about how the American Revolution started, unfolded, and came up to the Constitution. It is a fascinating chain of events by people with a vision.
The last 5 years, the Mexican Revolution started to get my attention. I think it is infinitely more relevant than the French Revolution, at least to the Americas. The only thing the French Revolution did for us was get some land cheap from Napoleon which we could have taken for free. I don't understand why it isn't covered as much. The people involved are exciting characters to follow and it was so long in the coming. My Spanish is not so good though, which makes it hard for me to follow. That revolution resulted in the later Texas Revolution, which helped the US win the Mexican American War, which brought land that produced America's early wealth through precious medals.
The difference between George Washington and Santa Ana is striking and the reason for the opposite direction of the 2 countries. One had no interest in being the first King of America and helped push forth a new nation. The other ripped up a constitution and claimed Presidency for life and ultimately broke up the nation, keeping it strife the next 100 years.
Check out the new WWII Museum addition in New Orleanshttp://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/...
Jack Woodville London
French Letters: Virginia's War
www.virepress.com
Joan wrote: "To PeggyThe scary part is that the Germans did vote---66 percent against Hitler. Voting wasn't enough."
True. George W. Bush lost the popular vote in 2000 but still got the office. I've heard Ben Franklin was quoed to say "If voting really mattered, it would be outlawed." but I've never been able find a verifiable source. We have the electoral college because our founding fathers thought us average Americans were too stupid to vote.
Americans these days tend to complain more than act. Voting is not in and of itself acting.
Thanks for the link to the WWII Museum article.
I haven't really narrowed it down yet. At the moment I would like to find material on the beginnings of the US, from discovery (whoever it was) to the Revolution. I'm especially interested in our forefathers. Most of the books I've tried to read about them has been fact after fact after fact...snore! Suggestions are appreciated.
Lori wrote: "I haven't really narrowed it down yet. At the moment I would like to find material on the beginnings of the US, from discovery (whoever it was) to the Revolution. I'm especially interested in our..."You might enjoy "Ghost Empire" by Philip Marchand. It is an offbeat account of the French in America, 1500-1763.
American History. For about two years I have been reading a lot of bios on the founding fathers and some other works on that period of time.
Lori wrote: "I haven't really narrowed it down yet. At the moment I would like to find material on the beginnings of the US, from discovery (whoever it was) to the Revolution. I'm especially interested in our..."Lori:
Perhaps you might be interested in a book I wrote, "Thanksgiving: The Pilgrims' First Year in America." It covers just about every known detail of what happened in Plymouth between the landing of the Mayflower and the famous harvest feast of the following autumn.
You can read excerpts and reviews at NLLibrarium.com. And of course there are a few reviews at goodreads.
End of commercial.
Glenn Alan Cheney
Lori, Geoff, dhenning:This is a P.S. to my reply to Lori. My book, "Thanksgiving: The Pilgrims' First Year in America," is a giveaway for the next couple of days. If you read the excerpts at NLLibrarium.com and think you might be interested, by all means toss your name into the contest.
Lori wrote: "I haven't really narrowed it down yet. At the moment I would like to find material on the beginnings of the US, from discovery (whoever it was) to the Revolution. I'm especially interested in our..."So I would say your interest is American Colonial History. I recommend Albion's Seed by Davis Hackett Fischer, a survey of the four colonial cultures. Well written, and interesting.
Greetings. I am new to Goodreads and to this group. I am the author of 'Hand of History, Burden of Pseudo History' (www.handofhistory.com)which deals with early (Iron Age) European, British and Irish history, particularly the history of the Celts. It seems not many are interested in this topic. But if any of you are I would like to correspond with you. I hope I am not breaking any rules with this introduction.Tom O Connor
Bruce wrote: "Hello Everyone, I'm brand new to the world of goodreads and therefore to the group. Look forward to ideas for reading. I'm mid 50's live in NH - kids, grandkids - tech background - on the board o..."Hi Bruce,
Having just joined this group, I find few indeed have my interest in Celtic history which is so linked up with Roman history, early European, British and Irish history. Perhaps we have something in common here and may be able to correspond about it.
Tom O Connor
Heidi wrote: "I mostly enjoy the medieval age, especially concerning Ireland, Scotland England; and WWII. I'm also intrigued by Russia, the Mongols, and ancient Rome and Greece. Thats not to say I won't read ..."Hi Heidi,
Seeing your interest in early Scotland, England and Ireland and Roman history, perhaps we have something in common. I am very interested in the early Celtic history of Europe, Britain and Ireland and having joined this group am dissappointed to find hardly anyone interested in the same subject.
Tom O Connor
are there any books about theories of history?eg do individuals make history or do forces cause events to happen, etc?
Yes, there are books about historiography.
what books would you recommend on historiography?also I enjoyed Tostoy's theory of history he wrote about in WAR AND PEACE -
any other books where the author mixes his/her theory of history within the story?
Well, I took a course on historiography in grad school, but mostly we read the actual past historians in order for us to make up our own minds about them.I can recommend that you stay far, far away from Descent into Discourse The Reification of Language and the Writing of Social History, which we did read, and was terrible.
Ok, hate to have you think I have only read one author,(not true) but HISTORIANS' FALLICIES by David Hackett Fischer is a wonderful book about reasoning errors by historians.
Jim wrote: "what books would you recommend on historiography?also I enjoyed Tostoy's theory of history he wrote about in WAR AND PEACE -
any other books where the author mixes his/her theory of history..."
Jim,
E. Estyn Evans' 'The Personality of Ireland, Habitat, Heritage and History' is an excellent example of an author mixing his theory of history with the story. He follows the great tradition of French historiography, adding the testament of landscape, antiquities and heritage to that of document-based history as a primary source of knowledge of our past.
"Interpreting Irish History - The Debate on Historical Revisionism' edited by Ciaran Brady is another. It claims that historiography itself has now become an integral part of any study of Irish history or contemporary ideology. The essays here consider the aims, methods and general influence of modern historiography.
Tom O Connor
I'm new to this group and I find I enjoy reading books on periods in history about which I know very little. While daydreaming I realized I didn't know which side of WWII the Finns were on. That turned into a major project, and I loved reading about what is often a sidebar on major works on the war. Let's call it "tangential history" that interests me most.-Peter
I am interested in European and Asian history. I don't want just the dry facts, but want to understand what the people lived through. Currently I am reading about Turkey - Greece - Armenia - Balkans. I am currently reading:Salonica, City of Ghosts: Christians, Muslims and Jews 1430-1950.
After this I plan to read:
Birds Without Wings
The Road From Home: A True Story of Courage, Survival and Hope
Not Even My Name: A True Story
Dandelions in the Garden
I tend to kind of to an area or a particular topic. I like biographies and memoirs b/c they tell you about real person's lives in history.
For awhile I did artists, and I still have more to read, but it is good to switch topic after awhile. Really history anywhere except where I have lived is fine by me.
I'm not really that focused in my reading. I am interested in religious history, British and European history. I like just about any history that is readable and will hold my interest. Right now I am reading Cokie Roberts Founding Mothers. It is a bit dry.
I like about any historical erathe main thing is that the book puts you there
some favorites
Distant Mirror - Barbara Tuchman
Team of Rivals
The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich
Have you tried The Guns of August, also by Tuchman, Jim? That one is up there with A Distant Mirror in my book.
Tuchman also wrote The Proud Tower and The March of Folly. Both are very good.
I have read The Guns of AugustTuchman is hard to beat but Team of Rivals by doris Kearns Goodwin is a tremendous book
to me it's amazing how some historians can find a lot of facts, analyze them and then put them in a way that carries the reader back to that time or event
I liked Team of Rivals as well. Have you read any of Bullocks books on Hitler. A Study In Tyranny and Parallel Lives are each excellent books.
African history and Russian history, both are interesting.
I, for a long time couldn't read enough about World War II. I read a book some years ago about Thomas Jefferson. Now I can't get enough to read about him.
I like the American Revolution, Thomas Jefferson was such a complex man, very interesting to read about. A true genius.
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Books mentioned in this topic
My Life with Bonnie and Clyde (other topics)Birds Without Wings (other topics)
The Road from Home: A True Story of Courage, Survival, and Hope (other topics)
Not Even My Name (other topics)
Salonica, City of Ghosts: Christians, Muslims and Jews, 1430-1950 (other topics)
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I landed my P-51 on Iwo Jima on March 7,1945 after the Marines cleared the area around a dirt air strip. For the next month we strafed the Island for the Marines. Then on April 7, 1945 I was one of 16 pilots of the 78th Fighter Squadron to fly the first VLR, Very Long Range mission over Japan. We escorted B-29’s over Tokyo and watched as they dropped incendiary bombs on the city. Not once did it occur to me that there were people on the ground. They were Japs, my enemy, not really human beings.
I made 19 missions over Japan, lost 16 good friends whom I flew with and carried a hatred for Japan, her people, her culture until March 6, 1988 when I attended the wedding of my youngest son, Robert to the daughter of a member of the Japanese Imperial Air Force from WW2. Her father, Taro Yamakawa hated me and I hated him. Now we have 3 grandchildren age, 20, 18 and 13 who live in Japan.
Last year I attended a ceremony in Japan <<...>> conducted by Dr. Hiroya Sugano since 1972 honoring the lives of 23 American airmen who were killed over Japan in a mid-air collision of their B-29’s. A charred and scarred canteen with the hand print of the American who was holding it is embedded on the canteen. Dr. Sugano uses that canteen in the ceremony. This URL shows a tape of the 2008 ceremony photographed by American Air Force personnel from Yokota Air Base. http://www.youtube.com/user/jerryelli....
Dr. Sugano has invited me to go to Iwo Jima on March 18, 2010 to use the canteen in a memorial service for those who were killed on Iwo 65 years ago, 7,000 Americans and 21,000 Japanese. He, like me has an interest in preserving Peace on our Planet for the young people in our lives. His daughter is married to a West Pont graduate and he has American grandchildren just as I have Japanese grandchildren.
Wouldn’t it be wonderful for all of us to gather together in Harmony on March 18, 2010 on Iwo Jima and show the world through a documentary the folly of War. How can we make that happen?
Jerry