Q&A with Josh Lanyon discussion
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What else are you reading? (June 2010 - May 2013) *closed*
Lauraadriana wrote: "Antonella wrote: "I'm a bit wary of kids in stories. The level of sappiness seems to increase whenever a child is there. How was that book concerning this aspect?''The Rifter'': I share the anxie..."
LA is at the other end of the sappy-tolerant spectrum from me, I think. She's much too nice to be as critical as I am (I'm a grouch :)). It definitely suffered from the ridiculously precocious and sappy kid factor -- he's 8 going on a yoda-like 80, preternatually wise and perceptive and acknowledged genius.
However, I'll add that while it was certainly a flaw, it didn't lose me as a reader -- overall the book was readable, I did get involved in the characters and wanted the HEA for them.
It wasn't as bad as Keeping Promise Rock on the emo/sappy/squicky front, though. That one had me wanting to get all the tranquillizers and testosterone I could get hold of and mail it to her as a Christmas present. She owns way too much stock in tissue box companies.
And yes, that one too is beloved by all. It appears to be my day to aim canons at the pedestals...
There is a discussion on Jessewave about angst in stories. Since I am relatively new in this genre and haven't read as much as you guys I don't think I have opinion about this. Not yet anyway.
ns wrote: "And yes, that one too is beloved by all. It appears to be my day to aim canons at the pedestals..."Somebody has to be the one to dislike everyone's favorite. Usually it's me, but I don't mind sharing the responsibility every once in a while.
ns wrote: "Lauraadriana wrote: "Antonella wrote: "I'm a bit wary of kids in stories. The level of sappiness seems to increase whenever a child is there. How was that book concerning this aspect?
''The Rifter..."
I liked this book a lot, I like a whole lot of the angst in my romance :O) And I thought he did pretty good for a first novel. So I was satisfied. But yes, this one packed the emo on PRETTY thickly :O)
''The Rifter..."
I liked this book a lot, I like a whole lot of the angst in my romance :O) And I thought he did pretty good for a first novel. So I was satisfied. But yes, this one packed the emo on PRETTY thickly :O)
Mod
Since I am relatively new in this genre and haven't read as much as you guys I don't think I have opinion about this. Not yet anyway."
I'm curious about this too:
I don’t equate good writing with the amount and level of angst in a romance, and I don’t believe many of you do, so why do some authors feel that hyping the angst to an unbearable level (your mileage may vary) makes a romance more marketable and therefore generate increased sales?
I'm not pretending that I don't write the occasionally angsty story, but I hear writers talking about angst as though they truly believed it was a major selling point. I know some readers enjoy it more than others, but I don't believe that for the general reader, angst is of itself the main consideration.
Josh wrote: "Cleon wrote: "There is a discussion on Jessewave about angst in stories.
Since I am relatively new in this genre and haven't read as much as you guys I don't think I have opinion about this. N..."
Hummm...I think I like the angst, because usually it comes with a little more complex plot. People falter, recover, make amends, which brings about redemption, forgiveness, all of that.
I don' t know, I think it makes the story meatier. There is a lot of emotion, and the characters carry the plot, instead of externalities...This may all be dribble LOL and make no sense at all, other than to me :O) But generally, that is why I think angst usually works for me.
Since I am relatively new in this genre and haven't read as much as you guys I don't think I have opinion about this. N..."
Hummm...I think I like the angst, because usually it comes with a little more complex plot. People falter, recover, make amends, which brings about redemption, forgiveness, all of that.
I don' t know, I think it makes the story meatier. There is a lot of emotion, and the characters carry the plot, instead of externalities...This may all be dribble LOL and make no sense at all, other than to me :O) But generally, that is why I think angst usually works for me.
Josh wrote: "Cleon wrote: "There is a discussion on Jessewave about angst in stories. Since I am relatively new in this genre and haven't read as much as you guys I don't think I have opinion about this. N..."
From the post and the discussion, I get the the feeling that the problem is not about angst as it is about heaping any torture you can think of to the characters. It reminds me of most Asian & South American's soap operas. Like... my God, how evil can the stepmother/sister/MIL/whoever can be and the main character should just lay there and take it.
Maybe the angst-lovers are just a vocal minority. But I do think that m/m skews more toward angst than mainstream romance. There just aren't as many really dramatic, heart-wrenching excuses to keep a m/f couple apart. Society has moved on, and there aren't as many limits on what is acceptable behavior for women. Society still gives men plenty of reasons to fear openly loving each other, though. Also, (and I know this totally contradicts what I just said about limits on women) there are certain themes, like adultery, that m/f readers are less likely to accept than m/m readers, and those topics make for lots of drama.ETA: On the other hand, I do love a good romantic comedy, and I can't say I've found a m/m one yet. Not that there aren't light, angst-free m/m books, but if there's a gay Jenny Crusie out there, I haven't found him or her yet.
Josh wrote: "I'm not pretending that I don't write the occasionally angsty story, but I hear writers talking about angst as though they truly believed it was a major selling point. I know some readers enjoy it more than others, but I don't believe that for the general reader, angst is of itself the main consideration. "I've been wondering about this. I write less angsty stuff, and I generally don't like extreme angst, unless the writer is very realistic about it (I love Taylor's angst, for instance). Is angst always good?
Anne wrote: "I've been wondering about this. I write less angsty stuff, and I generally don't like extreme angst, unless the writer is very realistic about it (I love Taylor's angst, for instance). Is angst always good? ..."For me, angst is a plus but it has to be real. Hit the guy with a car, but don't have some Big Misunderstanding (my problem with Promise Rock). The problems have to be real enough to justify any agonizing. Some angst comes off as whining which is seriously not a plus.
Anne wrote: "Josh wrote: "I'm not pretending that I don't write the occasionally angsty story, but I hear writers talking about angst as though they truly believed it was a major selling point. I know some read..."I think like all tropes, it all depends who write it and how it is handled. I know angst is a major selling point in fanfiction. It's the hurt/comfort dynamic thing. Not to give more fodder to any nightmare, but (view spoiler)
I'm a little confused by that article, actually. The author seems to be confusing the terms conflict and angst. As are a lot of various blog readers they quote. Angst can be the by-product of conflict -- but it's not the conflict itself. Angst is apprehensive emotion felt by an individual -- basically a degree beyond anxiety and perhaps shaded by a certain touch of self-centeredness. It's *inner* conflict, emotional turmoil. It's insecurity and a certain inadequacy felt by the individual to cope with life and what's thrown at one.
In fiction, authors who focus on the emotional issues of the protagonist (often accompanied by an over-wrought writing style) are what I'd deem overly "angsty." In this type of book or writing, conflicts tend to be the unrealistic Big Misunderstanding type of event, the plot devices tend to be major emotional gestures (as opposed to real world type of obstacles, issues) and descriptions tend to be detailed over-writing of the protagonists every fear and woe, with resolution drowning in the sickly sweet. It's basically unflagging, unrealistic melodrama. Soap, if you will.
I'm not sure extreme violence necessarily constitutes "angst" for me (would "Uneven" constitute an "angsty or emo" book?).
Don't know.
Also: "emo" = emtional (meant to be overly emotional or sappily emotional, but probably we're all using this in different ways, too).
Update2: I probably misunderstood the author -- she probably meant angst generated by all the violence and conflict in the book...?
ns wrote: "I'm a little confused by that article, actually. The author seems to be confusing the terms conflict and angst. As are a lot of various blog readers they quote. Angst can be the by-product of con..."
Thank you, ns, for the explanation! I wanted to ask what 'angst' is, because I have some problem translating it. It's originally a german word, but seems to have a slightly other meaning in English. If melodramatic is a synonym then I might have understood the concept.
So, am I right with the assumption that the August-read Dance With Me is angsty?
Calathea wrote: "If melodramatic is a synonym then I might have understood the concept. "Apparently I never understood it either: I thought it is a synonym for *dramatic*!
I tend to avoid books described as angsty. Need some help!!! I feel like reading about a bad boy who finds "the one" or someone special. Loved Zero At The Bone!! Any recommendations?
Antonella wrote: "Calathea wrote: "If melodramatic is a synonym then I might have understood the concept. "Apparently I never understood it either: I thought it is a synonym for *dramatic*!"
More shading toward melodramatic. In good angst, you get teared up reading it and your heart aches for the characters. In bad angst, you wish they would quit whining or you start adding up all the disasters that befall them and wish that the last car that hit them had been a tank.
Kaje wrote: "In bad angst, you wish they would quit whining or you start adding up all the disasters that befall them and wish that the last car that hit them had been a tank."LOL! Thank you for the further explanation!
whitney wrote: "I tend to avoid books described as angsty. Need some help!!! I feel like reading about a bad boy who finds "the one" or someone special. Loved Zero At The Bone!! Any recommendations?"
I see
among your books, but I don't understand if you read it. That would be an excellent choice!
Antonella wrote: "whitney wrote: "I tend to avoid books described as angsty.
Need some help!!! I feel like reading about a bad boy who finds "the one" or someone special. Loved Zero At The Bone!! Any recommendatio..."
LOL I saw Whitney's question on my updates, and got on here to recommend Shades of Gray, you beat me to it Antonella! Good choice :O)
I just wanted to say something one thing about 'angsty' books. To me 'good angst' is when I'm suffering with the the characters just as much as they are...Examples: Jake and Adrien, Mac and Tony. I was right their with them...'Bad angst' pretty much any plot where the more the characters suffer all I can do is roll my eyes...Just sayin' :O)
Need some help!!! I feel like reading about a bad boy who finds "the one" or someone special. Loved Zero At The Bone!! Any recommendatio..."
LOL I saw Whitney's question on my updates, and got on here to recommend Shades of Gray, you beat me to it Antonella! Good choice :O)
I just wanted to say something one thing about 'angsty' books. To me 'good angst' is when I'm suffering with the the characters just as much as they are...Examples: Jake and Adrien, Mac and Tony. I was right their with them...'Bad angst' pretty much any plot where the more the characters suffer all I can do is roll my eyes...Just sayin' :O)
Good angst: the situation that leads to the angst/ tragedy is believable and the characters can rise above it. Prime example: Shades of Gray. Bad angst: only heaps and heaps of torture designed to make the readers pity the characters and the characters are passive and cannot rise above their tragedies. Example... hmmm I haven't read any M/M books that is bad angst, but a lot of soap opera storylines are like this.
Cleon wrote: "Good angst: the situation that leads to the angst/ tragedy is believable and the characters can rise above it. Prime example: Shades of Gray. Bad angst: only heaps and heaps of torture designed t..."
You know, I think the biggest difference for me is how the characters react. I can tolerate a lot of character abuse (and even really like it) if the characters' reactions are realistic and they find some spark of humor and maintain dignity.
ns wrote: "I'm a little confused by that article, actually. The author seems to be confusing the terms conflict and angst. As are a lot of various blog readers they quote. Angst can be the by-product of con..."
More than confused by the article, I felt like I was being told the same thing over and over: Authors use angst as a plot device too much.
Duh.
Cleon wrote: "Good angst: the situation that leads to the angst/ tragedy is believable and the characters can rise above it. Prime example: Shades of Gray. Bad angst: only heaps and heaps of torture designed t..."
Oh, that is a perfect example. That was one case where I didn't mind the deluge of pain.
@ ns -- I don't know which category Uneven would fit into. I didn't feel like it was overly angsty, necessarily, but it was certainly melodramatic. Emo? I think of "emo" as characters who actively go out searching for angst or emotional extremes (or situations which lead to that), and in that sense, emo is perfect for Uneven.
Anne wrote: "I felt like I was being told the same thing over and over: Authors use angst as a plot device too much."You forgot the violence-in-romance-iz-bad part.
Kari wrote: "Anne wrote: "I felt like I was being told the same thing over and over: Authors use angst as a plot device too much."You forgot the violence-in-romance-iz-bad part."
It's bad? How come no one tells me these things?
I totally disagree with that part, but yeah, I totally forgot it. :] Violence between MC's = bad. Violence otherwise (in small doses) can add so much. Sad but true.
I liked the article. It's not saying angst or violence is bad but when used as a plot device instead of a consequence of a plot then it's no very nice to read. Maybe it is something you see more as a reader than author because I have definetely seen this trend.
Now this discussion is infecting my poetry (my art!!!)From the limericks and other poems thread:
(to the tune of "My Favorite Things")
Burn 'em and drown 'em and hit 'em with tanks
Dole out sad histories, beatings and pranks
Misunderstandings, the pains that they bring
Angst's a romance writer's favorite thing
I tend to agree that the logic to the plot is very important too. How often do you see a MC get into a situation where they're going to become the damsel in distress by being totally stupid (Do not chase that guy without back-up, aaargh!)? Not quite as often as in hetero mystery-romance perhaps, but still too often. Or that "saw his beloved in danger and all of his police/fire/military training disappeared and he became a mass of quivering jello."
Oh, Kaje, excellent.Is there a theme today? I kept wanting to try my hand at one.
mc wrote: "Oh, Kaje, excellent.Is there a theme today? I kept wanting to try my hand at one."
Open mike today, any theme you like. Give it a shot, it's lots of fun. You can do Haiku, Limericks, Acrostics, or lyrics to My Favorite Things on any m/m topic.
Mod
I do think a lot of it is driven by the fact that the bulk of m/m writers come from a fan fiction background where high angst is very much the norm.
ALL romance has a certain level of angst. There's always the dark moment when it looks like things maybe won't work out. Possibly Wave is talking about angst but she really means melodrama? Because it's that over-the-top-melodrama that usually topples a story from believably angsty to Oh Come ON!
Mod
Here we go. Yes. Melodrama. I think that's being used interchangeably with "angst."
I think wave is also talking about the high percentage of sexual violence we see in m/m romance plots compared to m/f romance (and I don't mean bdsm). Especially recently if feels like rape is an everyday thing in a lot of plots (I am exaggerating!) which is not the case in m/f romance...
Sagajo wrote: "I think wave is also talking about the high percentage of sexual violence we see in m/m romance plots compared to m/f romance (and I don't mean bdsm). Especially recently if feels like rape is an e..."I've noticed that, too. I always find it disturbing, because it seems like it's handled so badly, too. As if men have a different reaction to be raped than a woman would. As if they're more "okay" with it.
Mod
Anne wrote: "I've noticed that, too. I always find it disturbing, because it seems like it's handled so badly, too. As if men have a different reaction to be raped than a woman would. As if they're more "okay" with it. "Yes there is definetely a tendency to trivialize it lately. That doesn't mean that there aren't books out there that deal with this topic respectfully. For example, I think Amy's talker is a good example of that.
That's what I mean about being real. If the guy goes through major trauma I want him to need therapy, but work to regain his balance, not agonize for pages and then leap into bed with someone. It happens in m/f books too though. I can't remember how many times I've muttered, "the trauma of past rape is not erased by just having great sex with someone you're highly attracted to". Bletch.
Kaje wrote: "That's what I mean about being real. If the guy goes through major trauma I want him to need therapy, but work to regain his balance, not agonize for pages and then leap into bed with someone. It..."Remember about healing childhood trauma with penis quote? Lol. I think Anne can enlighten you further on that.
Kaje wrote: "That's what I mean about being real. If the guy goes through major trauma I want him to need therapy, but work to regain his balance, not agonize for pages and then leap into bed with someone. It..."I've read about a rape victim being treated to a gentle blowjob every night to try and lure him from his state of shock (it was a very brutal rape).
Sagajo wrote: "I've read about a rape victim being treated to a gentle blowjob every night to try and lure him from his state of shock (it was a very brutal rape)...."That could be good or really bad, depending on how it's written and what goes along with the blow-job (and whether oral sex was part of his assault.) As part of a bring-him-back-to-life loving relationship it could work. As give-him-hot-sex-and-he'll-get-over-it, not so much.
Kaje wrote: "That could be good or really bad, depending on how it's written and what goes along with the blow-job (and whether oral sex was part of his assault.) As part of a bring-him-back-to-life loving relationship it could work. As give-him-hot-sex-and-he'll-get-over-it, not so much."
It was not by someone he had had a sexual relationship with before (actually it was someone he had previously refused, but it's a complicated situation). Add to this that the MC was forced to give blowjobs during the rape to "learn to enjoy it". I don't know... I think a back rub would have been better, as I said he was in shock (unresponsive). The book was popular, but I had nightmares after reading it.
Cleon wrote: "Remember about healing childhood trauma with penis quote? Lol...."Cleon what is that quote? It sounds funny.
Kaje wrote: "Sagajo wrote: "I've read about a rape victim being treated to a gentle blowjob every night to try and lure him from his state of shock (it was a very brutal rape)...."That could be good or really..."
Yeah, I'm trying to figure out how that could work. Not that it couldn't, I just need to see how it's treated.
Lauraadriana wrote: "Antonella wrote: "whitney wrote: "I tend to avoid books described as angsty. Need some help!!! I feel like reading about a bad boy who finds "the one" or someone special. Loved Zero At The Bone!!..."
Thanks ladies! I will be starting it next :)
MandyM wrote: "Cleon wrote: "Remember about healing childhood trauma with penis quote? Lol...."Cleon what is that quote? It sounds funny."
"Sam. I've got news for you. Not every childhood trauma can be healed by finding the right penis."
Sam looked devastated. He opened and closed his mouth, eyes wide, then suddenly slumped back against the railing, unable to support himself anymore. "You mean," his voice was barely a whisper. "All those romance novels lied?"
By our own Anne Tenino from
. Go read! It's free! lol.
Cleon wrote: "MandyM wrote: "Cleon wrote: "Remember about healing childhood trauma with penis quote? Lol...."Cleon what is that quote? It sounds funny."
"Sam. I've got news for you. Not every childhood trauma can be healed by finding the right penis."..."
Yeah, I love that line (Go, Anne!)
Cleon, I know you're several time zones away, but do you ever sleep? :)
Cleon wrote: "By our own Anne Tenino from Whitetail Rock. Go read! It's free! lol..."Should have known! I'll get right onto it.;)
mc wrote: "Cleon, I know you're several time zones away, but do you ever sleep? :)"I just wake up. lol. I slept for about 5 hours last night. It's almost 10. am here. But yeah, I dont sleep a lot.
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Q&A with Josh Lanyon
Books mentioned in this topic
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''The Rifter'': I share the anxiety..."
Umm I would not say sappy...BUT if you have low tolerance for emo angstyness...I would skip it, having said that, I was practically rabid after reading it. I loved it so much :O)