Q&A with Josh Lanyon discussion
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What else are you reading? (June 2010 - May 2013) *closed*
mc wrote: "I'm big into faith and things like the golden rule, but in recent years, I've had a big problem with organized Religion (capital R - to me, small r means one's private relationship with faith and God, or not God, or whatever works for them)."This is very good! I have thought this before and it is how I believe I live my life.
Heather C, c'mon, give me three more adjectives :)
mc wrote: "Heather C, c'mon, give me three more adjectives :)"lmao weird, confusing, mysterious, addictive,
oh, lookie, I made 4 whole adjectives!!
You are adorable.I asked because the blurb you linked to confused me...I read it twice and still wasn't sure what it was. Which isn't a deal-breaker, mind you.
mc wrote: "You are adorable.I asked because the blurb you linked to confused me...I read it twice and still wasn't sure what it was. Which isn't a deal-breaker, mind you."
she's a brand new author. Bubbles and I are reading it together now and we are hooked. There is so much going on and its kinda confusing. Many different POVs. I would say it's kinda like a paranormal mystery. It has elves, wereshifters, vamps, demons, and I have no idea what else. Not really any romance going on and most of the sex is fade to black. I didn't even read the blurb, so...
I just read the blurb, that describes it pretty well actually
I guess I need to high octane my tea more.Ah, I'm enjoying this interlude before I have to get back to my project. Thank you.
LoL, you're welcome. Now that I'm awake, I'm going to get back to reading it ;)
Mod
This is my thought about the Bible (which I have read many times). I think sometimes people are caught up in the letters and forget the true meaning behind the words. Letter of the law versus the spirit.
If you're going to take the Bible as the literal word of God, then you must take every single thing within the Bible as literal -- everything from dietary restrictions to women being chattel to THOU shalt not kill. You cannot pick and choose based on circumstance. You must accept the hard stuff as well as the stuff that's easy because ya already kinda believe it.
Or you must place it all into historical and cultural context.
Nor can you pick and choose Old Testament versus New just because Jesus turns out to be a socialist and a shocking liberal on Moral Majority issues. If you accept the Bible as the literal word of God, then you must take every single word as God's mouth to your ear.
When I was much younger and in rebellion against the Catholic Church, I read pretty much every religious text I could get my hands on. I read the Bhagavad Gītā (and probably didn't really understand a thing), I studied Wicca, briefly studied the Koran (again, probably understood very little), read a lot of Thomas Aquinas.
The conclusion that I came to was the fact that so many cultures independently and repeatedly came to create (recognize) essentially similar constructs of "God" was probably the best argument out there for the fact that God DOES exist. That there is something more, that our lives do have purpose and meaning, and it is our god-given duty to make something of those lives, to add to the (if you will) betterment of the world and our fellow man/woman.
And now I sound like a complete and raving lunatic, so I'll stop. I don't want to turn this into a religious forum.
My point is only that, even in my own work, I see very little reflection of that religious struggle in m/m ficition. We see a lot of zealots and fanatics and bigots, but we see very little (at least I have seen very little) of the genuine and painful struggle to come to terms with homosexuality within the context of Christianity.
But in fairness, I'm probably not reading the right stuff because the minute I read a description of priests/monks/ministers I fear it's going to turn into the usual cliche and I do not buy those books.
No. You don't sound like a lunatic. I've also done quite a bit of study of other religions, though I wouldn't call myself an expert by any means, and you perfectly distill my experiences and conclusion.
Josh wrote: "For me, capital R refers to the corporate aspect of it, as many of the major ones are as much about maintaining the organization as they are about the 'product' the organization sells (as you've al..."I think one the biggest parts of the problem is not the Religion itself, but how we are brought up. We're programmed since we're too young to believe in certain things and such things are very hard to shake off. Call it imprinting, if you must.
Even though I've been an agnostic for years, I still fear I would go to hell if I died. Yes, it's irrational, but it's there. There are other aspects of my life that is still ruled by my upbringing that I know are very irrational, but I just can't shake it off.
My point is only that, even in my own work, I see very little reflection of that religious struggle in m/m ficition. We see a lot of zealots and fanatics and bigots, but we see very little (at least I have seen very little) of the genuine and painful struggle to come to terms with homosexuality within the context of Christianity.
I believe Jeff Erno's Trust Me touched this issue, at least some. The main character struggled to accept himself because he's been raised as a devout Christian since he was very young. But yes, there is an intolerant bigoted pastors "cliche". Only for me, it's not cliche, it's real.
Mod
My dear friend who recently passed away was a minister. We had many heartfelt talks about Christianity and homosexuality. I think we were both better people, better Christians, for those discussions.
I do agree with you about the "imprinting" thing.
Josh wrote: "But in fairness, I'm probably not reading the right stuff because the minute I read a description of priests/monks/ministers I fear it's going to turn into the usual cliche and I do not buy those books."LOL. In my other life, I write Christian non-fic and used to debate specific points of orthodox vs aberrant theology as well as cannon and the reliability of the NT documents. I've given passing thought to doing a book with a underlying thread of a faith struggle, but only briefly. If I managed to sell the thing (not in a million years), my readers would be horrified. I'm just not at a stage where I could wear both my academic & fiction hats simultaneously. It'd be a disaster.
While I do believe there may be m/m readers who are searchers, people who are still trying to find their way, I think there's a much larger preponderance of those who've given organized religion a great big FU and are not at all interested in faith being even remotely presented in a positive light because their experiences have been so bitter and ugly that it's turned them away from any moderate voices.
Mod
And fair enough. There are such appallingly ugly, irresponsible things being said from the very people who should know better.
That's fascinating about your background, Kari!
Kari wrote: "Josh wrote: "But in fairness, I'm probably not reading the right stuff because the minute I read a description of priests/monks/ministers I fear it's going to turn into the usual cliche and I do no..."Kari, you always managed to surprise me! Well, if my friends want to argue theology with me, especially about homosexuality, I'll just direct them to you. lol.
Josh wrote: "But in fairness, I'm probably not reading the right stuff because the minute I read a description of priests/monks/ministers I fear it's going to turn into the usual cliche and I do not buy those books..."
You're right, both books about priests I mentioned deal very little with "homosexuality within the context of Christianity." Which is too bad. I find this dilemma very interesting, and it also means (well,supposed to mean) "angst" which I'm a sucker for, but no, the author won't go deeper into the conflict. In both books the priest decides that God loves them anyway and.. that's it. Well, almost. In" The Hired Man" the reverend deals wit his sexuality in a rather satisfying (satisfying the reader, I mean) way (don't want to spoil)
You're right, both books about priests I mentioned deal very little with "homosexuality within the context of Christianity." Which is too bad. I find this dilemma very interesting, and it also means (well,supposed to mean) "angst" which I'm a sucker for, but no, the author won't go deeper into the conflict. In both books the priest decides that God loves them anyway and.. that's it. Well, almost. In" The Hired Man" the reverend deals wit his sexuality in a rather satisfying (satisfying the reader, I mean) way (don't want to spoil)
It's hard to do a balanced take on organized religion (as opposed to personal faith) when so many religious organizations seem to irrationally dump on the very people they should be holding out a hand to. (Like taking away funding for birth control for the poor because it touches tangentially on abortion). After a while one builds up a head of steam and it comes out nasty. I'm actually consciously putting a positive church experience into my third Mac & Tony book, because in the first two, religious intolerance is one of the main characters' biggest threats to happiness. I decided I need more balance. I don't go to church, but my oldest daughter found a very inclusive and warm Methodist congregation and I felt the need to acknowledge and confirm that those folks are out there too.
Mod
They are.
And, to paraphrase Ben Franklin, if this is how bad people are *with* religion, imagine what they would be like without it.
Candice wrote: "What did you...? I'm sorry; I can't hear you; my stupid meter's going off. I understood a little of that. I just saw the rest of it flying over my head like Superman.Thank you, ns--that was so nice of you. I don't think I can do any of that. I have a printer I know how to use...I guess I shouldn't have asked. You're cool though."
Heh. Sorry about that. Just email me at: ns at lanyontide dot com and I'll fix your Kindle up for you.
I read the Mann of My Dreeams series mostly yesterday when I was out and offline, with nothing but my Kindle. Thanks for all who pointed it out, it was a great read (and I'm only up to Ch 24).
I will say that there is at least one factually incorrect statement in the first books -- Quinn's dad is prominently mentioned as dying in the 1978 Air India crash which "exploded". There was no explosion. There was no bomb. The plane went pretty silently down till it hit the waters of the Arabian Sea off the Bombay suburbs.
The pilot's attitude indicator malfunctioned, leaving him with an erroneous reading of the angle at which they were flying. It was dark and they couldn't tell their horizon. He wrongly corrected, leading them to fly down instead of up.
It is still hard these many years later to understand how the entire cockpit crew failed to tell they were diving and not rising.
Strange the random things authors pick up from real life to fill out details in their books that coincide with one's significant, life-changing memories.
mc wrote: "I'm still into the Company of Shadows mega novel, now into the second book. I enjoyed Dan and Vadim's story a whole lot, though there were parts of that series that bothered me a lot. I've still ..."Aw, we love having you here, mc. :)
I think your depiction of Religious institutions as corporations is spot on, having grown up Catholic.
ns wrote: "Strange the random things authors pick up from real life to fill out details in their books that coincide with one's significant, life-changing memories."Your description of the crash, while really straightforward, was really powerful. I knew before I got to this last paragraph that it was a major event to you. I always think it's easier to work in the events that were major in your own life, for whatever reason.
Anne wrote: "Your description of the crash, while really straightforward, was really powerful. I knew before I got to this last paragraph that it was a major event to you. I always think it's easier to work in the events that were major in your own life, for whatever reason."
One of the reasons why I was wondering if it was random or if the writer was in some way connected? It's very hard to stop thinking like that, like probing a long missing tooth, poking at old wounds..
Murphy wrote: "I don't think you will be sorry for your interest in the Victor Banis Deadly Series. Someone said that the feel of the series is not realistic because it is more homophobe than in the 2000's. I didn't find that to be so. I have had a couple of folks in my bridge club tell me not to talk about my "homosexual interests" they are very sinful. Maybe M/M is more progressive but there are still lots of folks who would still like to see us gone. Look at the guys in Africa that want to kill homosexuals just cause they are homosexuals. That has happened in the last couple of years. It think there is a backlash -- how the pendalum swings. I think eventually, folks will get to the "I don't care mode" but I sure don't think we are there yet. "My remarks should certainly not be construed as "homophobia no longer exists in 2009."
Of course there are *many* headlines from RL everyday that serve to illustrate that, quite apart from all of our myriad personal experiences. Some of us have been somewhat active in various legislative attempts on gay issues.
I don't think there's a reader in this forum (or your average m/m reader) who is ignorant of the prejudice that exists still today.
However, it's very true that progress has been made every decade -- from the 70s to the 80s to the 90s to 2011. There was an Oprah show which did a retrospective on the 1984 show done in Williamsburg (on an AIDS patient who died).
And given the laws and institutional protections in this country, I'd still say the US is a relative haven (compared to the climate I'm much more used to -- where any such public act and you could be publicly stoned (Pak), you could expect to be harrassed by cops, beaten, thrown in jail, if not strung up by a mob). Life in most other countries is much, much, more conservative with far fewer govt and institutional protections (India, Arab, muslim, world). Something that you don't see written about in general m/m fiction (like Three Wrong Turns -- you would not really have that level of overtness).
What I should have said is that the sophistication in the handling of gay issues certainly has changed -- and lead to unrealistic plot elements in Banis' books.
The key one I was referring to was the San Francisco Police Dept (SF!) promoting the overtly gay rookie who could barely hold a gun to detective to handle a major gay-oriented/victim case in his first weeks on the job.
Could it have happened? Perhaps. Would it have happened in 2009? Really, really unrealistic. And not in SF!
Literary license to manouver Stanley (naive, bumbling) together with Tom (closeted, senior, hard-nosed)? OK. But that's not the world we live in 2009, it's so much more complex and sophisticated.
Josh wrote: "That's fascinating about your background, Kari!"Not really. Unless you're in the very narrow niche I worked in, you'd have no earthly idea who I am and any idiot can debate. Strictly small fry.
mc wrote: "No. You don't sound like a lunatic. I've also done quite a bit of study of other religions, though I wouldn't call myself an expert by any means, and you perfectly distill my experiences and conclu..."Ditto.
I can't think of any of my friends who have mentioned those kinds of struggles. I think I hang out with agnostics.
Anne wrote: "I can't think of any of my friends who have mentioned those kinds of struggles. I think I hang out with agnostics."Teach teenagers (Sunday School). The wonderful-annoying little dears question everything, God love 'em.
Kari wrote: "Anne wrote: "I can't think of any of my friends who have mentioned those kinds of struggles. I think I hang out with agnostics."Teach teenagers (Sunday School). The wonderful-annoying little dear..."
Didn't you at that age? I sure did. That's when I figured out life, the universe and everything (with the help of Monty Python).
Josh wrote: "And, to paraphrase Ben Franklin, if this is how bad people are *with* religion, imagine what they would be like without it."Not sure I can agree with Ben there. It doesn't seem to me that religion is responsible for the good things religious people do. I think good people find a religion or philosophy that works with them and so do nasty people (obviously people are a mix, but just to simplify).
I am a Buddhist now, and I am at least as good a person as when I was trying really hard to believe in God.
ns wrote: "Murphy wrote: "I don't think you will be sorry for your interest in the Victor Banis Deadly Series. Someone said that the feel of the series is not realistic because it is more homophobe than in th..."I think this could be viewed as poetic license & not very unusual to find in fiction. I think Murphy was objecting more to the view that homophobia is a thing of the past & therefore old fashioned when bought up in books. I agree there has been progress but there's still a battle.
If things were so honky dory here in the US, you wouldn't have the amount of teen suicides we have been seeing related to this issue. You wouldn't have Adam Lambert banned from ABC because he dared to kiss a guy on television. You wouldn't have the diatribes I've seen, the praying over the gay, & the posits that all gay people are going to hell that I read on CBS websites after they showed a gay couple on TV. And you wouldn't have the recent TV star, Tracy Morgan saying that he would stab & kill his son if he told him he was gay.
I think many m/m books are written in a gay bubble where it's all kumbaya & tolerance that when we're confronted with a book that actually shows that's not the case, we instantly find it old fashioned. Haven't we moved from this? Not all the way obviously. Maybe that's why I never found any of the Deadly mysteries particularly old fashioned.
It's fascinating reading about everyone's views on religion. I feel really lucky that, as a young girl, my Catholic nun teacher told me my father (being the only Protestant in our little Catholic family) was going to Purgatory when he died because only Catholics went to heaven. Being the sensible kid I was I recognised a bunch of hooey when I heard it. My Dad is one of the kindest and most honourable men I know, certainly a better person than the crotchety old nun who used to whack us with her ruler for such heinous sins as looking out the window while she was talking! Anyway that let me live my life happily free of the guilt and self-doubt associated with organised religion. I will always be grateful to that nun!;)
Lou wrote: "I grew up in Europe without a scintilla of religion in my upbringing. During my teenage years had a brief period pondering the meaning of life, god, etc. Then I got over it. Coming to the US i was ..."I won't go into any long description of my reasoning when it comes to religion, except to say that it's been many years since I really saw the need for it. I don't feel I have to believe in a god to feel what the "moral" thing to do is. I can see Jesus as a role model without saying he's God or the son of God.
Lou, that's why I really like the last part of your post. It reminded me of the time Jehova's Witnesses knocked on my door, and we ended up standing there debating for almost an hour. :D
I can never understand, if God is all-powerful, why it's so important for him that we believe in him. It seems like he would be above that.
And why should it matter whether we believe, if we (as Josh mentioned) try to make the world a better place and spread positivity? It is a kind of belief, certainly, but I don't need a belief in a god to come to the conclusion that that's the kind of world I'd like to live in.
Ami wrote: "Kari wrote: "It never ceases to amaze me what ugly, hateful & hurtful things people do in the name of religion. As though belief in God (regardless of faith/denomination) earns you a free license t..."People will go to war, period. They'll justify it by any means. Calling it one's religous obligation is a favorite w/most faiths as it can't be disproved; no point in arguing it when someone says they're called of God to do something. And it elevates a probably acquisitive action to something lofty, worth somebody else dying for.
Obviously, faith in God or the Bible can do great good or be used to justify anything.
I am reading Visions of Blood & Shadow and it is so weird complex... Everything is a mystery and I don't know who is good or evil or who is gay/bi/straight. There are no main characters per se just several characters and the more you learn the big the mystery. That said i am really enjoying the complexity of it and how everything is playing out. Warning it is pretty dark story wise but really intriguing I think Em should read it
Finished
Just fantastic...What I beautifully written book, the world building was superb and the characters were so well crafted...such a good book...The next one comes out this week...will read it for sure.
Just fantastic...What I beautifully written book, the world building was superb and the characters were so well crafted...such a good book...The next one comes out this week...will read it for sure.
Lauraadriana wrote: "Finished Just fantastic...What I beautifully written book, the world building was superb and the characters were so well crafted...such a good book...T..."I liked it, too. I'm looking forward to the next one.
Bubbles (Dane) wrote: "I am reading Visions of Blood & Shadow and it is so weird complex... Everything is a mystery and I don't know who is good or evil or who is gay/bi/straight. There are no main charac..."You know that I like weird! I've added it :-)
Yvonne wrote: "If things were so honky dory here in the US, you wouldn't have the amount of teen suicides we have been seeing related to this issue. You wouldn't have Adam Lambert banned from ABC because he dared to kiss a guy on television. You wouldn't have the diatribes I've seen, the praying over the gay, & the posits that all gay people are going to hell that I read on CBS websites after they showed a gay couple on TV. And you wouldn't have the recent TV star, Tracy Morgan saying that he would stab & kill his son if he told him he was gay.I think many m/m books are written in a gay bubble where it's all kumbaya & tolerance..."
Clearly, I live in a bubble (without a TV), because I didn't know any of that, except the incredibly high suicide rate. That's horrible -- what kind of unmitigated bastard threatens to kill their own child over anything?
Mod
I haven't read this book, just read about it (there's a sort of Cliff Notes type article in Time in about April), but a fairly prominent Evangelical minister posited in the book that there's no hell. Love Wins: A Book About Heaven, Hell, and the Fate of Every Person Who Ever LivedSince then he's caused quite the controversy. He's not the first fundamentalist minister to suggest the idea. A few years ago there was a really fascinating episode of This American Life where another minister started preaching the same thing.
The point is (for me) that the basis of a lot of proselytizing is the fact that hell exists. It's used to scare people into being "good" or joining a certain religion. It's also used to make members of a church go out and try to "spread the word". If you aren't spreading the word, you aren't doing everything in your power to save others from the fires of hell, therefore putting your own soul in jeopardy.
Being good for its own sake isn't properly motivating, apparently.
Anne wrote: Clearly, I live in a bubble (without a TV), because I didn't know any of that, except the incredibly high suicide rate. That's horrible -- what kind of unmitigated bastard threatens to kill their own child over anything? To clarify he's a comedian and probably said it as a joke, although the person who saw this act said that it was said as part of a homophobic rant at the end of his show & spoken as if he meant it.
Yvonne wrote: "Anne wrote: Clearly, I live in a bubble (without a TV), because I didn't know any of that, except the incredibly high suicide rate. That's horrible -- what kind of unmitigated bastard threatens to ..."I'm so out of touch with TV land. If it's not Project Runway...
I finally read something new (as in, haven't read it before) for the first time in weeks. I read Between Friends by our very own Lou Harper. Really liked it, I'm a total sucker for the best friends thing, but when it's the best friend's little brother? Even better.Then I read The Curtis Reincarnation. It wasn't what I was expecting, but again, I really liked it. I like Zathyn Priest so it was a safe bet, and I was pretty happy with it.
L.C. wrote: "Anne wrote: "I finally read something new (as in, haven't read it before) for the first time in weeks. I read Between Friends by our very own Lou Harper. Really liked it, I'm a to..."I have Hanging Loose on my TBR, what d'ya know? Have you read "Just One of Those Days" by Priest? It's a free pdf, so if anyone wants it I can email it out.
I can't wait to read The Curtis Reincarnation. Probably this week :)
Emanuela ~Zstyx~ wrote: "I can't wait to read The Curtis Reincarnation. Probably this week :)"I loved that one! Not usually what I like to read but it was great.
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Q&A with Josh Lanyon
Books mentioned in this topic
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Authors mentioned in this topic
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I never thought I'd be into these serialized novels, but really, some of them are very compelling.
What an interesting discussion about religion. I'm big into faith and things like the golden rule, but in recent years, I've had a big problem with organized Religion (capital R - to me, small r means one's private relationship with faith and God, or not God, or whatever works for them).
For me, capital R refers to the corporate aspect of it, as many of the major ones are as much about maintaining the organization as they are about the 'product' the organization sells (as you've all figured out, I think in business terms a lot). In these instances, the companies seem to have forgotten the original product that they were marketing, and have moved into areas that are far away from the intent that created the corporation in the first place.
If you ask me (which no one did), whether you believe in fate, destiny, afterlife, or none of the above, we are here to love and to accept love. Some people have bigger problems with the former, some with the latter, but ultimately, it comes down to that.
Josh, I am really sorry about the situation with your friend - not knowing this person, and only 'online' knowing you (which is probably not much more than that!), I'm moved by your ability and desire to try to somehow maintain something, and also feel how difficult that may be going forward. What ever happened to judge not lest ye be judged? And good heavens, what a tough several months you have been having with respect to friends and family. *hug*
Anyway, yes, I think religion and m/m is really an complex and flavored topic to explore in your column. I'm looking forward to the responses and the dialogue. (By the way, one of your earlier columns is how I found my way here, which may be a good or bad thing to the citizens here, I don't know.)