What else are you reading? (June 2010 - May 2013) *closed* Showing 12,651-12,700 of 13,523

[Katharina]

Aleksandr wrote: "Katharina - Yep to the body language! Still, a confident (purposeful) gait helps, too. It's crazy how these decision processes run. As an example, burglars won't break into your house if your neigh..."

Oh yes, voice is a huge factor, too. Pitch and volume. I have to say that I largely prefer male voices myself, because I often have trouble with loud female voices - they tend to give me headaches. And they quite often distract me from the content of the speech to the sound itself (obviously, there are exceptions to that - but voice alone is one of the reasons why I think it's actually harder for most women to be seen as a good speaker than it is for men).
The obstacle thing you mentioned is brilliant. Really interesting. Do you know any study on that by any chance? Would love to read up on it if I ever have the chance/time.

[Aleksandr]

I left all law-related texts and books in Germany when I emigrated. I'm sure you can dig it up when you check out "Viktimologie" - I studied for a general Criminology exam for Law, but that sub-set of statistics/data actually stuck with me for, uhm, 17+ years now.

[Antonella]

This thread is so freaking interesting even though we tend to stray a lot! I had never heard of victimology before.

[Katharina]

Aleksandr wrote: "I left all law-related texts and books in Germany when I emigrated. I'm sure you can dig it up when you check out "Viktimologie" - I studied for a general Criminology exam for Law, but that sub-set..."

I'll look it up, thanks! It's really funny how (and what) things stick with you. It's usually the most specific stuff while the bigger picture is long since forgotten :-D At least that's what happened to me with a lot of my biology knowledge...
Anyway, I'm going to sleep now! Good night everyone!!

[Katharina]

Na wrote: "Playing idiot/weak may have its uses sometimes."

In some circumstances it does (like when you want someone else to do a particular duty you aren't fond of), but where any sort of evaluation (by your superior/experts-of-the-field/etc.) is concerned: supposed incompetence is a big minus.
My office mate (male, btw) has the problem that he has some difficulties of taking a stand, of saying so if he doesn't believe in a particular project or experiment, and in 'selling' his image as a valuable and individually thinking researcher. And that doesn't do him any favours where our boss is concerned. Fact is, you can be as a good an experimenter or researcher as you want, if you cannot sell your own image you have no place in science. And I figure it's the same thing everywhere else, too.

[Carlita]

I am so glad I read this. Our company just moved us into a new building with four-story parking a block away. Leaving work at 1 a.m. and taking that walk Is scary. Forewarned is forearmed.

[Johanna]

Katherina I have to respectfully disagree. For much of my career I was that person you describe and the value of my contributions and knowledge cannot be dismissed because talking in groups is not a strength. Affect, stance and behaviors are culturally learned and reinforced. While some cultures reinforce those traits in women some just see perceived boasting as a negative trait in either gender imho.

[Johanna]

I do find the winding discussions fascinating though. I especially like the international component because peoples lens' differ greatly.

It is interesting that some things are universal like the unpredictability of drunks but things like how socially acceptable that behavior is vary.

[Becky]

Carlita wrote: "I am so glad I read this. Our company just moved us into a new building with four-story parking a block away. Leaving work at 1 a.m. and taking that walk Is scary. Forewarned is forearmed."

Is there someone in building security who can walk you to your car at night? If not, I'd have a talk with your boss or human resources. At a minimum there may be some liability for the company in forcing employees to walk on their own in the middle of the night to get to/from the building to their car. At best, they hopefully actually care about the safety of their employees and will want to try to make things safer just because it's the right thing to do. The people who make the decisions often work day shifts, and sometimes they don't recognize dangers that are perfectly obvious to night shift employees.

[Katharina]

Johanna wrote: "(...) the value of my contributions and knowledge cannot be dismissed because talking in groups is not a strength"

That's true!! I didn't really think of boasting, though - although, to be honest, looking at the who's who in science that might help quite a bit, it seems. But I can't stand it, so I'm trying to avoid it :)

The thing is, though, that I really respect my colleague for his abilities and I'm absolutely sorry to see that our boss doesn't give him a lot of credit - because my colleague never makes his opinion on matters known. Not in the group, but also not in one-on-one-talks. And science is a bloodthirsty field, highly competitive. If you're lucky you can get high publications and that's fine then, because they speak for you. But that happens once in ten thousand cases maybe. The rest of us poor buggers has to confidently explain the value and the merit of our studies - or neither the studies nor we ourselves will get any recognition at all. And no recognition equals no job. Maybe this ISN'T how other fields are played, but unfortunately it's this way here.

And I'm not saying I like it - but I understand it in a way. Science is so incredibly full of people - you cannot pay attention to anyone - not even to half of the people in your field. It's just not possible, even if you spent your whole time reading up on them. So, you go for the people that make themselves known - for quality of work (hopefully) or because they know how to sell it, or both. How could you not?

[HJ]

KC wrote: "Hj wrote: ""... knitting a hat with owls :)" ???

This I have to see! Is the pattern on Ravelry?"

Yes, probably, ... do you want me to send you the pattern?"

Please could you put up the link? Thanks!

[HJ]

I've just finished reading through the thread and my request for a knitting pattern now looks pretty feeble in the context of the other discussions!

I did a little criminology years ago, and oddly enough the same bit sticks with me as it did with Aleks: how some people look like victims and are therefore more likely to actually become victims of crime.

And Aleks, I find the general attitude in the UK towards alcohol to be appalling. It's a serious problem. For example, students tend to drink very heavily (in a way which was certainly not common decades ago when I was a student). It's such a waste of resources - none of them can afford it (they all run up huge debts), it wastes a lot of time, and of course they're below par for their studies. I wish I could see the solution.

[Aleksandr]

Hj - yes. I'm a non-drinker (I like a vodka or cocktail every now and then, but almost like medication, it's a relaxant for the brain), and in Germany, going out with friends and not get rat-arsed was completely acceptable. People didn't even assume I was the driver ,(though I often was). In the UK, you get looked at weird, people ask "You sure?" If you ask for a non-alcoholic drink, as if I was holding back and they want to encourage me. If they go on about it I tell them I'm descended from two lines of alcoholics and have seen what people do when they are shitfaced.

Scarier is the casualness. Even women see nothing in demolishing a bottle or two of wine a day. It's the Done Thing - of course you will have wine with your meal and beer in the pub. Dreadful. Meanwhile, if a drunk gets disorderly and violent, nobody interferes. Everybody looks away. Then again, there's a news story almost every day of an innocent dude having stood up to a pack of rowdies and either got kicked or beaten half to death or knifed. So people figure, Why should I risk my life/health? It has created an intimidated, cowardly society where the drunk and violent minority runs ferwl on the streets and the silent majority stays at home pretending they are not avoiding.

[HJ]

Aleksandr wrote: "Hj - yes. I'm a non-drinker (I like a vodka or cocktail every now and then, but almost like medication, it's a relaxant for the brain), and in Germany, going out with friends and not get rat-arsed ..."

Yes, it's the social pressure to drink which I find particularly distasteful. I do think it's worse in people under about forty. It does seem to have happened (or worsened) over the last couple of decades. And the City (by which I mean those working in the financial base in London) seems to be the worst.

It's just occurred to me that this may be linked to the explosion of wealth which took place in the City in the 80s, around the time of the deregulation of the Stock Exchange. Those who used to be called yuppies, the kids who suddenly found themselves earning ridiculous amounts of money, felt very privileged, and started competing with each other in the bars as well as on the trading floors.

But that doesn't explain the general attitude throughout the UK, or why (as I think) it's worsened ever the last twenty or thirty years.

[Aleksandr]

Hj - Yep. It's why I don't go out with anybody but friends - no casual work get-togethers, because I really don't want to know what my colleagues are like when they are dancng on the tables and sharing Too Much Information. Not if I'm the only sober person in the room. I find drunks (even happy drunk) extremely repulsive (but, again, that's my family background).

I do have a theory about British mentality and that is that the Victorians are biting them with a vengeance. The whole emotional suppression thing. Essentially, I've never had a "deep emotional heart-to-heart" with a British person. (Apart from my partner, but I trained him and he's a Northerner, where the culture is a little bit more straight-talking.)

Essentially, Brits don't really share their deeper emotions with anybody, and they don't do "friendship" in the German sense. (I start to think that German "Freundschaft" is almost closer to the military "comradeship", which, wow, interesting.) Essentially, if you have a friend in Germany, there's a huge amount of depth and loyalty and sharing involved. I've never had a "friend" in the UK - casual contacts, people who I'm "friendly" with. Real friendship? Only happpens with other immigrants.

So all that pent-up emotional energy? Goes into drink, at which point it is acceptable to let the emotions out. Too bad that drink, while giving you "permission" to be emotional at the same time completely takes your control about how to express them.

[Katharina]

Just a little something to Gender Roles:
if you want to look how you classify regarding traditional sex roles, you can fill out the questionnaire here http://garote.bdmonkeys.net/bsri.html
The Bem Sex Role Inventory is pretty old (over 40 years), but it's still in high use in gender role research.

[Aleksandr]

Interesting. I'm 82.5 male, 47.5 female, and 55 androgynous. No surprise there, really.

[Johanna]

...who writes from a kindle or smartphone and cannot figures out how to "reply" to a specific GR comment or quote it in her text

This is so interesting and just proves the whole earth is a big social experiment.

I was nodding, nodding, aggressively to Aleksander's comments. I have never been a big drinker either child, sibling etc. of many alcoholics on native american side but I worked with a network of very bright under-employed Irish folks when I was in college. One was such a great person. She had her masters in midwifery in her early twenties, had blackouts and DTs and dismissed the american over diagnosis of alcoholism.

As funny as she was the mindset just blew my tiny mind ;)

[Aleksandr]

Johanna - I think being an outsider helps with diagnosing alcoholism. My father was a "Pegelsaeufer" (roughly tranlated as "drinker who keeps at a certain level"). So, sober, he was a beast, but for 90% of his time, he was "just" sozzled - pretty coherent, managed to uphold a conversation, but he still drank what, 8-10 litres of beer a day, and that's a rough estimate. There were whole days when that was his only calory intake. To him, an alcoholic is automatically a "bum living under a bridge", not himself, who for most of his life held down a decent, well-paid job. It's the socially accepted form of alcoholism. "Oh, but Herbert likes a bottle of beer, come on, he's working hard."

Personally, if you need alcohol to function (or think you do), if you can't not drink, if you crave the stuff, you're an alcoholic.

[Katharina]

Aleksandr wrote: "Interesting. I'm 82.5 male, 47.5 female, and 55 androgynous. No surprise there, really."

I was about 74 male and 63 female. Seems like I can't decide ;)

[Aleksandr]

I think ideally we'll all develop ALL of our emotional resources. Being "such a guy" can mean you're a pushy, insensitive ass. :)

[Katharina]

Tharayn wrote: "Katharina wrote: "Just a little something to Gender Roles:
if you want to look how you classify regarding traditional sex roles, you can fill out the questionnaire here http://garote.bdmonkeys.net..."

Actually, these tests are about gender roles, not about gender per se. They say that our society traditionally proclaimed certain traits to go with a specific sex, for whatever reason (and that this is true can't really be denied, can it?) However, if you as an invidual follow these roles is completely independent from that.
They are not meant to overcome anything, they are merely descriptive: do people still follow these roles? In how far? Which parts of a society do, which don't? How is that related to other factors/behaviours? So, in a way these tests do help to overcome traditional roles by furthering our understanding of the matter.
It's not even important if these gender roles are still up-to-date, I'd say quite a few of them aren't. These tests aren't meant to say that it IS feminine to be meek and shy, they say that traditionally being meek and shy was primarily a female trait for whatever reasons - and then, we can look, whether that is still true in today's society and if so, why.

[Johanna]

apparently I am 78 male 61 female 56 androgynous.. hummn food for thought.

[Sarah]

Katharina wrote: "Aleksandr wrote: "Interesting. I'm 82.5 male, 47.5 female, and 55 androgynous. No surprise there, really."

I was about 74 male and 63 female. Seems like I can't decide ;)"

75 male, 43.3 female and 52.5 androgynous - although a bunch of the answers I was trying to think back to pre-depression. I'm with Tharayn on this though - a lot of that did seem more oriented to gender roles. I spent a few years studying/working in science labs - oddly enough the people there who are scientists tend to be very analytical and logical irrespective of gender or age. When I started working outside of a lab it was something of a culture shock - people were much more likely to fall into traditional gender roles and to form opinions based on such. Very annoying.

Regrettably I think Aleks and HJ are right about drinking in the UK - it was pretty bad when I was a student and I think it's been getting worse over the years. And the extended opening hours just meant we got the packs of drunken idiots at different times of the night. And it seems to be a part of the work culture here - a team night out was usually just an excuse to get extremely drunk, often with people that I didn't want to see outside of work, never mind go drinking with. But not going meant you weren't a team player. Which is just daft.

[Sarah]

Aleksandr wrote: "So all that pent-up emotional energy? Goes into drink, at which point it is acceptable to let the emotions out. Too bad that drink, while giving you "permission" to be emotional at the same time completely takes your control about how to express them. "

Sounds about right, unfortunately. I have some very dear friends with whom I do share a lot/am emotionally close, but we've also all been 'broken' in some way or come close (depression etc) - I think that's what lets us share so much. But before that I tended to keep everything inside - that was 'normal'.

[Katharina]

Sarah wrote: "I'm with Tharayn on this though - a lot of that did seem more oriented to gender roles."

Well, this test is called Bem Sex ROLE inventory. :D It's not about finding out what your biological sex is, but how you do on a scale measuring traditional gender roles. Today many women will probably be far more 'masculine' in the roles they take on than 40 years ago when the scale was invented. That is the purpose of these scales, however - to see how behaviours, understandings, and identities shift.
Gender roles are a lot about environments - and seeing that women are now far more likely to compete and be assertive in their fields than they were 40 years ago, it's only natural that behaviours are starting to shift away from the traditional gender roles.

[Susinok]

Aleksandr wrote: "Interesting. I'm 82.5 male, 47.5 female, and 55 androgynous. No surprise there, really."

I scored almost the same. 80m/46f/64an

[Aleksandr]

Yep. All the career blogs say "Go to the after-work do!" I ... tend to make up excuses about either repairpeople or builders or a deadline for a novel. Showed up, but left after an hour, wishing you guys all the fun in the world, while getting the hell out of Dodge.

[Johanna]

does anyone else have trouble compartmentalizing these traits?

I am agreeable to be polite to a point until it infringes on my loyalty to others then I am extremely aggressive. Or I am quiet in bars and clubs but not at work.

I need more context people.

[Susinok]

Nope, not me. But then I make decisions easily. :) It's part of my masculine side...

:)

[Aleksandr]

Sarah - Yep, at which point the positives of "friendship" kick in (having a good four-hour natter or so with the right people is what Germans call "Seelenhygiene" - soul hygiene), and having those kinds of conversation really help with the equilibrium. Brits normally just don't do that - unless they've learned a different behaviour. There's so much I love about the British, but that one thing was hard to accept. Hence I fall back on immigrants, mostly, who are just as starved for heart-to-hearts as I am. :)

[Sarah]

Tharayn wrote: "The part about the victims reminds me of my studies in Leipzig. So I was from Berlin most people were not but from... smaller cities.
The girls were frightened. When night falls, they weren't going..."

I hadn't heard of victimology before this, but I know that when I've wandered around on my own at night I've very rarely had a problem, and even then it would just be remarks. And I'm female, 5'6 (just) and not particularly big. But I was generally wearing boots with flat heels and I guess walking with a 'square' posture. Attitude does seem to have a lot to do with it.

[Katharina]

Johanna wrote: "apparently I am 78 male 61 female 56 androgynous.. hummn food for thought."

Similar to my result :-D Seeing how many people do similarly, it just means, though, that these traditional gender roles (although they are still the matter of many stereotypes and expectations) no longer reflect today's behaviours in our society. At least in many cases.

[Sarah]

Katharina wrote: "Sarah wrote: "I'm with Tharayn on this though - a lot of that did seem more oriented to gender roles."

Gender roles are a lot about environments - and seeing that women are now far more likely to compete and be assertive in their fields than they were 40 years ago, it's only natural that behaviours are starting to shift away from the tradtional gender roles. "

I think we still have quite a bit of shifting to do though :)

[Aleksandr]

Suninok - Nice! I have some very "female" traits (empathy, caring), but I refuse to not live them because that would make me less "alpha" or whatever. I think it belongs to being a well-rounded human being. If being male means you get to be an insensitive oaf, then I really don't find that very desirable at all.

[Johanna]

everyone seems high on the androgynous scale. I wanna be more androgynous so I will fit into mainstream slim fit clothes forget about gender roles.

[Sarah]

Aleksandr wrote: "Sarah - Yep, at which point the positives of "friendship" kick in (having a good four-hour natter or so with the right people is what Germans call "Seelenhygiene" - soul hygiene), and having those ..."

lol - yes, if you can break our shells then we British do have emotions...but you'll need a hammer & crowbar or a lot of alcohol to get there :) The Victorians really do have a lot to answer for! Our attitudes to sex are generally pretty prudish too :(

[Katharina]

Alright, back to work, I have to find out how this sodding questionnaire is actually analyzed since I'll use it my research, too ;D

[Johanna]

Aleksander-- I saw you mentioned being in finance. Me too. I can't imagine where you are running into all of those boorish oafish alfa male posturers. Nope I don't see it all day every day ;)

[Katharina]

Johanna wrote: "does anyone else have trouble compartmentalizing these traits?

I am agreeable to be polite to a point until it infringes on my loyalty to others then I am extremely aggressive. Or I am quiet in b..."

It's really hard, that's why questionnaires only tell you so much... It's still interesting, though, because these scale have a pretty high retest reliability. Which means that if you were to take the test again, you'd probably score pretty similarly to the first time. I'm always wondering how this works since I have the same problem as you do :)

[Katharina]

Johanna wrote: "everyone seems high on the androgynous scale. I wanna be more androgynous so I will fit into mainstream slim fit clothes forget about gender roles."

LOL!!

[Sarah]

Katharina wrote: "Johanna wrote: "everyone seems high on the androgynous scale. I wanna be more androgynous so I will fit into mainstream slim fit clothes forget about gender roles."

LOL!!"

Oh definitely! :)

[Katharina]

Sarah wrote: "I think we still have quite a bit of shifting to do though :)"

Definitely! And it's such a slow process, too. But it's still encouraging seeing how different things are now to 20, 30, 40 years ago. Think how it could be in 30 years. I'm really excited to find that out :-D

[Aleksandr]

Johanna - LOL. I hear that a lot from other financial services drones. "Wow, that character is just like my boss, just he's much better dressed and wittier." :) There's a certain "type" and I did get my fill of them as a journo. :)

[Susinok]

Johanna wrote: "everyone seems high on the androgynous scale. I wanna be more androgynous so I will fit into mainstream slim fit clothes forget about gender roles."

I'm afraid that being androgynous will not let me wear skinny jeans no matter how high that score. :)

[Sarah]

Katharina wrote: "Sarah wrote: "I think we still have quite a bit of shifting to do though :)"

Definitely! And it's such a slow process, too. But it's still encouraging seeing how different things are now to 20, 30..."

True :)

[Johanna]

lol back- I have a few adults on my team too but Recently joined a group with three day traders wannabe 20+ 's who break into every conversation with charting tips, excercise and lean meat comparisons. For those of you in other fields--- this is normal in the industry.

[Darkm]

Katharina wrote: "Aleksandr wrote: "Another interesting thing - when I studied criminology, we studied "victimology" (what is a victim, how was the victim chosen, what is the composition of the victim population by ..."

I'm deeply loving this conversation you all started.
I agree with you and Aleks that the image we project plays a major role, but sadly, so does our shape.

I'm tiny, there's no two way about it, and I really don't feel secure at all wandering alone at night.

I was recently reading about a German city, trying to find if there were dangerous areas at night and it was a ludicrous question for those living there.
Well here it's really not ludicrous at all.

[Johanna]

alas, as you have all charmingly failed to point out, I am no writer so I have just found my job niche. Me Drone.

[Darkm]

Aleksandr wrote: "Hj - Yep. It's why I don't go out with anybody but friends - no casual work get-togethers, because I really don't want to know what my colleagues are like when they are dancng on the tables and sha..."

Very interesting.
The idea that people could be drinking so much as an excuse to let go crossed my mind too.