Q&A with Josh Lanyon discussion
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What else are you reading? (June 2010 - May 2013) *closed*
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Aleksandr
(last edited Mar 20, 2013 10:11AM)
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Mar 20, 2013 10:11AM
Yep. I recently read a Graham Greene book and they are beautifully tight and tense. What that man accomplishes on ~200 pages is tremendous. And the reason? Paper rationing. Publishers could literally not afford to print long/big books in the war/post-war years, so authors were economic. Personally, I hope we return to the age of smaller books - I just can't get through the long ones these days. The middles drag, they are full of filler, nothing happens, and everything is turned into a long series of 10+ massive doorstoppers. Just *looking* at the Wheel of Time bookcase at Waterstones/Foyles gives me a length-related form of vertigo. (But I know I'm alone in that.)
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Charlinda wrote: " Not everyone is aware of M/M and not everyone's going to understand it. I feel like it's my thing. I guess I just worry about it going mainstream and getting commercialized. That things will change. I don't know how to word this well, since I haven't given it that much thought to be honest. But I'd be happy that is would benefit the authors because you all work hard and deserve it. It's just me greedy lol."I totally can relate to this kind of sentiment! That's basically how I feel about my favourite music genre (Melodic Death Metal). I know most people don't know what to do with it and I'm sorry but I kind of like it that way. It's difficult for the musicians, of course (so I try to buy as many CDs as I can ;D), but they're all in this genre for the joy of making this kind of music, because it represents them and their whole being and not for any kind of other reason. And you notice that in many of the bands. Also, getting to know someone who likes the same music is like the ultimate instant connection. Because it just doesn't happen that often. ... I don't feel that way about M/M yet, because I don't identify as much with it yet as I identify with my music, but I could see that happening...
figuranta wrote: "Charlinda wrote: "I'd be happier if she wrote a book about V and Butch. That's my favorite BDB couple."i was gutted when she didn't make them a couple :("
I know! They'd be so beautiful together smh. They have more chemistry together than they do with their shellans!.I heard that Ward mentioned they are kind of together. Their Shellans know how they feel about each other and let them get together every now and then. Idk..i'd rather read about it on paper...or my kindle lol. I've read a few good fanfics, but I'd rather read what Ward writes about them. But, I heard she does't like people writing fanfics.
Mod
..."
Now you've got my attention. How so, Charlinda?
So many writers seem to think it would result in more sales..."
No, that makes sense to me. I'm the kind of person who likes finding and treasuring those things that most people don't know about. I don't know what that is, exactly, but it does lose some of its joy when everyone is in on the secret.
If that makes sense.
Mod
..."
Now you've got my attention. How so, Charlinda?
So many writers seem to think it would result in more sales..."
Actually, I don't think it would benefit the majority of m/m writers or publishers. I think that's miscalculation on some people's part.
Mod
It wasn't just paper rationing, though. It was a whole school of storytelling that began in the 30s and was simply about the lean bones of the central plot. The padding really began in the 70s and its been going on ever since. I don't think it was a positive development for books and writing.
Josh wrote: "Charlinda wrote: "Josh wrote: "Charlinda wrote: "JIdk how I would feel about M/M going mainstream. ..."
Now you've got my attention. How so, Charlinda?
So many writers seem to think it would re..."
That makes perfect sense. It's exactly what I was trying to say. You just condensed it down to fewer words lol.
Josh wrote: "Charlinda wrote: "Josh wrote: "Charlinda wrote: "JIdk how I would feel about M/M going mainstream. ..."
Now you've got my attention. How so, Charlinda?
So many writers seem to think it would re..."
How so?
Josh - Re: mainstreaming, I think there's some possibilities there, but overall the genre seems to be growing nicely without m/m authors trying to go mainstream for that purpose.In my case, I come from the mainstream and enjoy writing mainstream genre fiction (I'll add historical to that). And looking at some of my bunnies, I'm seeing structures emerge that are not romances, but adventure stories (or pure-bred, "literary" historicals). I'll still "do" queer characters, but the romance/eroticism won't feature prominently, which means it likely has a bigger appeal. Besides, I promised The Dude to make an attempt or three, so at least he'll stop moaning and bitching if/when I fail. :)And regarding book length: I agree. I think books essentially went downhill from there. These days, only "literary" works are short (they tend to be pretty slim paperbacks), but they are so thin in terms of plot, they'd better be short stories.
Or maybe I'm getting cynical, bitter, and envious, which is totally a possibility.
Aleksandr wrote: "Yep. I recently read a Graham Greene book and they are beautifully tight and tense. What that man accomplishes on ~200 pages is tremendous. And the reason? Paper rationing. Publishers could literal..."Is this not a bit contradictive wot you saying Aleks if we referring to your book
?
Josh wrote: "Are any of you planning to read the new JR Ward book? Any thoughts as to the future ramifications for m/m lit in mainstream?...."
Thanks, saved me some money.
I didn't make it the whole way through the review, but this idea caught me:
We all knew this would be a filler book, something easy to skip if you didn't want to read the "gay book".
Okay, I see this,it's not for everyone. There is enough repetition in these books, I think several of them can be skipped without missing too much. It is a friendly series from this pov. So, how is this different?
Mmmm, I guess we'll have to see if any of the het only readers are disappointed too.
I wonder if people who buy this book will get M/M recommendations from Amazon?
Josh wrote: "Charlinda wrote: "Josh wrote: "Charlinda wrote: "JIdk how I would feel about M/M going mainstream. ..."
Now you've got my attention. How so, Charlinda?
So many writers seem to think it would re..."
This idea seems to always be talked about as a good thing, and since I'm a reader and not an author I assumed I couldn't see the entire picture, but honestly I feel the same as you, Josh, and Charlinda. I'm concerned that m/m going mainstream will cause it to 'get out of hand' even worse than it may be right now within its own genre. We talk a lot about the problems that exist right now, but I'm afraid those problems will wildly escalate in mainstream. I just don't want to let go of it. Like you said, keeping it our secret. :)
Figuranta - I think we can agree that even Special Forces is at least 20-30% too long. It also burned me out of long books - forever. I don't believe I'll ever write anything that length again, because right now, that's 2.5 years of my life, pretty much day and night. (That said, if somebody paid me a million pounds after taxes, I might attempt it, provided I can quit my day job.)
Aleksandr wrote: "Figuranta - I think we can agree that even special Forces is at least 20-30% too long. It also burned me out of long books - forever. I don't believe I'll ever write anything that length again. (Th..."I actually love it but i have to be in the right state of mind to read it if u understand wot i mean :))
Mod
I grew up -- literally -- in mainstream.
I won't deny I am tempted by the thought of meshing mainstream with m/m. The money would be negligible, but the effect on backlist would be considerable. Therefore, long term, maybe there is a financial incentive. There is that ongoing quest to find new readers, readers on the peripheral of the genre.
But I've grown so used to creative control. To choosing my own covers, having the final editorial say, picking my own narrators, deciding how to bundle print...it's increasingly difficult to even consider relinquishing control.
I think you, Aleksandr, helped me appreciate the shorter books. When I first started reading your books I would think "why are they so short!" or "if only it were longer". But, when I would finish them, I felt satisfied. Like with Golddigger and Skybound, I found nothing dragged on and I felt everything was dealt with. I mean I'd still like them to be longer, but that's because I don't want them to end lol. So now when I see a 300+ book I wonder if it's worth it because most of the time the middle drags on or things aren't even really resolved at the end.
Charlinda wrote: "I think you, Aleksandr, helped me appreciate the shorter books. When I first started reading your books I would think "why are they so short!" or "if only it were longer". But, when I would finis..."In my opinion it's worth it if it's a good story and u fell right into it and you don't actually get bored reading it, to be captivated by the subject and when you discovered that u finished reading over 300 pages u just wanted more and more
Mod
..."
Now you've got my attention. How so, Charlinda?
So many writers seem to thin..."
To start with, most m/m writers won't find a mainstream publisher. Period.
And as far as mainstream readers go... For all we hear about the horrible, dreadful, subpar mainstream offerings, they still aren't as horrible, dreadful, or subpar as the offerings of so many indie publishers. And things like editing and plots that make sense DO matter to readers used to mainstream. Mainstream readers who are lured into m/m will stick primarily to the bigger houses and the books that get the better reviews.
On the bright side, I'm doubtful many mainstream authors will be poaching on our preserve. I think it's tougher to write with sincerity and passion in a genre you don't relate to than a lot of writers think it will be.
Josh - Yeah, that's the thing. I even get itchy when considering publishing outside Riptide (though control is then shared with some extremely good pros, and editors who put me through my paces). I would therefore go through an agent and if I don't get a considerable advance (two of my friends did, so I've seen it happen, that life-changing advance), I won't do it. Having seen that life-changing advance happen a few times, however, means I'm looking at my outstanding mortgage debt and I think exchanging a book (or three) for a house is a good deal overall. Though I will hire the hottest agent I can get and not sign away life of copyright or some other shenanigans.
So, mainstream, yes, but pretty much on my terms or it won't happen. Which might kill the deal (Big Six publishers tend to like their authors pliant and contract-stupid), but its not like self-publishing or indie publishing aren't options that are even potentially profitable.
Josh wrote: "Charlinda wrote: "Josh wrote: "Charlinda wrote: "Josh wrote: "Charlinda wrote: "JIdk how I would feel about M/M going mainstream. ..."
Now you've got my attention. How so, Charlinda?
So many wr..."
I think many authors writes wot seems to sell best not wot they would like to write and that's disappointing
Charlinda - Thanks. :) I do try to cut out all the fat, and I've never written filler in any of my commercial releases, mostly because I cannot stand the stuff myself as a reader. So, short and meaty works for me. That said, I do get novels, and I'm still writing them, but I'm now also writing the short stuff that comes out on a whim and which I'd have suppressed (or kept in a drawer) during my mainstream years, because "short" didn't have a market. Personally, I love a well-written short story or novella, so my writing pretty much reflects exactly what I like reading. :)
Mod
..."
Now you've got my attention. How so, Charlinda?..."
It's always a compromise. From the point that the decision to publish is made, a writer begins to compromise.
Either that or they begin to whine that no one reads them. :-D
figuranta wrote: "Charlinda wrote: "I think you, Aleksandr, helped me appreciate the shorter books. When I first started reading your books I would think "why are they so short!" or "if only it were longer". But, ..."Oh yeah definitely. I know from certain authors it will be a good read and I will be sucked in. Like right now I'm glad Touch and Geaux by Abigail Roux is going to be 300+ pages. I just can't get enough of Ty and Zane. And for me the novels never seem to drag on. There's humor, action, romance, mystery, etc. and there's always a reason for something Abi does. No matter how many time I read the series it always feels like a new experience.
On the bright side, I'm doubtful many mainstream authors will be poaching on our preserve. I think it's tougher to write with sincerity and passion in a genre you don't relate to than a lot of writers think it will be.Nevermind that our niche is tiny. Why should a whale try to fit into the village pond if there's a bigger ocean out there?
Josh wrote: "figuranta wrote: "Josh wrote: "Charlinda wrote: "Josh wrote: "Charlinda wrote: "Josh wrote: "Charlinda wrote: "JIdk how I would feel about M/M going mainstream. ..."
Now you've got my attention...."
Even when it seems like a copy cat of another book?
Mod
A bi character meets a gay character, both fall in love with each other. What happened? A new woman was introduced and the bi character falls in love with..."
Yes. That does seem to be a popular compromise in some circles.
But it's not a viable one, given how offensive it is on so many levels to the gay or dedicated m/m reader.
Josh wrote: "Tharayn wrote: "I did see that in a fantasy series before.A bi character meets a gay character, both fall in love with each other. What happened? A new woman was introduced and the bi character fa..."
I have to admit since i read m/m it's harder to find a m/f which i actually enjoy and will take ages to come out of my mind and i can concentrated to read another book
Mod
J.R.Ward did introduce gay characters in her series several books ago. Though they were not present..."
True. And I don't want to try to analyze or second guess an author and a book I've yet to read.
I think overall there is great potential benefit when mainstream authors venture into GLBT territory -- if only for the potential of building acceptance and olerance in their own readership for the notion of gay relationships.
Commercial fiction, mass market entertainment, shapes a culture and its attitudes -- that power cannot ever be underestimated.
And I also think that writers can only write (or at least cannot be blamed for) what they enjoy writing. What makes sense to them, what feels write. (Er, right.)
This of course gets into that investment we all feel in the fiction we read. Sometimes we're okay to sit back and let the author drive where he will. But so often I read reviews and comments that reflect a need to climb into the driver's seat.
And as much as I sympathize -- and am prone to do the same -- I also know as a writer that you can only write what you can conceive of. We are limited by our own imagination and interest.
And frankly I don't know that "limited" is the right word.
Writers are not data processing machines. :-)
Aleksandr wrote: "Charlinda - Thanks. :) I do try to cut out all the fat, and I've never written filler in any of my commercial releases, mostly because I cannot stand the stuff myself as a reader. So, short and mea..."I think I'm finding that for me the perfect length is under 300 pages. I mean I do like a good lengthy novel if it's well written and doesn't drag on. But, it's kind of hard to find a "doorstopper" that doesn't do that. Whether it's M/M or het. I think J.R. Ward over does it.
Mod
There's been such a fuss made of this book, that I'm thinking that readers likely to be offended will surely avoid it?
Even so, a percentage of readers open-minded enough to give it a try might be disappointed simply because of some of the elements in the review -- for example, the idea of a Giant Miscommunication substitution for a real romantic plot.
But then again, that's making a judgment based on a review of a book I haven't read! :-P
Mod
There is definitely something to be said for a writer capable of making you forget you're reading 300 pages.
I confess it's been a long time -- possibly not since I read Vanity Fair -- that I've been able to read anything that long and not lose interest.
The exception would be Ginn's Rifter series, but I did read it as a serial.
It's not so much to do with books and writing as it is my own restlessness as I get older.
Josh wrote: "figuranta wrote: "Charlinda wrote: "I think you, Aleksandr, helped me appreciate the shorter books. When I first started reading your books I would think "why are they so short!" or "if only it w..."The last book i read over 300 pages and i was so fascinated was France Kafka - The trial but that was about 4 years ago before i got so much into romance
Mod
reading now through the Psycop series, i'm on to the 3rd and really enjoying it (it's not as scary as i expected it to be which is good :)) and braving The Year of the Flood - i found ..."
You can't go wrong with any of those!
Mod
..."
Now you've got ..."
I guess it would depend!
figuranta wrote: "Josh wrote: "figuranta wrote: "Charlinda wrote: "I think you, Aleksandr, helped me appreciate the shorter books. When I first started reading your books I would think "why are they so short!" or ..."I'm looking through the books I've read and the last 300+ page M/M book I read was When Love Is Not Enough by Wade Kelly. And that was back in November. That was a good book and I did't even notice is was over 300 pages until now lol.
Josh wrote: "figuranta wrote: "Charlinda wrote: "I think you, Aleksandr, helped me appreciate the shorter books. When I first started reading your books I would think "why are they so short!" or "if only it w..."Actually it can't be the age, because I'm getting restless there, too, and I refuse to believe that the term 'older' can in any way be referred to me - not even in combination with 'get'. So... let's go with experience. Totally different thing.
I find myself reading other short books in between longer books, though. And I need a pretty big incentive to start a long book, in the first place. Huge hurdle, that. When I was youn.... when I had less experience, I'd never even thought that the length of a book could prove problematic in any way.
Charlinda wrote: "figuranta wrote: "Josh wrote: "figuranta wrote: "Charlinda wrote: "I think you, Aleksandr, helped me appreciate the shorter books. When I first started reading your books I would think "why are ..."I have to check that out i never heard of it thx you for the recommendation
Mod
I guess because mainstream authors are scrabbling just like everybody else. Every author I know, NYT Bestseller or not, is preoccupied with this whole "discoverability" issue. It's all anyone talks about anymore.
So there's a lot of discussion and consideration of crossing over into other genres. And some genres look easier to cross into than others.
I mean, there always was this push to cross, but now there's a real sense of urgency, that branching out may be one of the only ways in which to successfully compete.
Mod
..."
Now you've got my attention. How so, Charlinda?
So many writers seem to think..."
I'm torn. If the pressure of mainstream competition resulted in better books -- books that were edited (and I don't just mean copyedited, I mean content edited) -- that would be a good thing.
But I can't see mainstream really going full steam with male male romance simply because of the economics of mainstream publishing. I think what we'll see are a couple of mainstream published male male writers break out with big successes. They could be writers we're already familiar with -- in the case of ZA Maxfield, for example -- or they could be unknowns.
It'll be interesting to see.
Katharina wrote: "Josh wrote: "figuranta wrote: "Charlinda wrote: "I think you, Aleksandr, helped me appreciate the shorter books. When I first started reading your books I would think "why are they so short!" or ..."Same here. I'm only 22 and I get restless now lol. I think it's because I'm not exactly new to this anymore. I know what I like and if it's not meeting certain expectations then it's hard to sit through a lengthy novel.
And I read shorter books in between longer books too. Sometimes it's because I need a break from the book or my interests ventures elsewhere.
figuranta wrote: "Charlinda wrote: "figuranta wrote: "Josh wrote: "figuranta wrote: "Charlinda wrote: "I think you, Aleksandr, helped me appreciate the shorter books. When I first started reading your books I wou..."No problem :)
Omg. I'm horrible. I missed my 11 am class *face palm* The clock on my computer froze so the time said it was only 10:30 when really it was already 11.
Josh wrote: "When it comes to mystery fiction, it's all about the journey rather than the destination. ..."I feel that way about most books I read. Regardless of happy or sad ending, the journey is the thing.
Josh wrote: "Are any of you planning to read the new JR Ward book? A reader forwarded me this link to one to the first pre-release reviews (beware of spoilers!):
http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/......"
I'll be reading it. This weekend I'll read the book right in front of it (I hadn't gotten to it yet) to refresh my memory on the storyline.
I don't want to read the spoilery review until after I've read the book, though. Was it positive?
Susinok wrote: "Josh wrote: "Are any of you planning to read the new JR Ward book? A reader forwarded me this link to one to the first pre-release reviews (beware of spoilers!):
http://www.goodreads.com/review/..."
Not exactly.
Susinok wrote: "Josh wrote: "Are any of you planning to read the new JR Ward book? A reader forwarded me this link to one to the first pre-release reviews (beware of spoilers!):
http://www.goodreads.com/review/..."
This particular review..not exactly..but I've seen others that were.
Susinok wrote: "Josh wrote: "When it comes to mystery fiction, it's all about the journey rather than the destination. ..."I feel that way about most books I read. Regardless of happy or sad ending, the journey ..."
Agreed, and that is why I get so annoyed when a blurb of a book promises a good story and exciting journey while in reality the plot is just a thin excuse for writing sex scenes. het or gay or trans - don't care, I want story, plot, the protag's and mine, the reader's, journey.
Short rant over now. I admit it felt good to get it off my chest:)
Aleksandr wrote: "Yep. I recently read a Graham Greene book and they are beautifully tight and tense. What that man accomplishes on ~200 pages is tremendous. And the reason? Paper rationing. Publishers could literally not afford to print long/big books in the war/post-war years, so authors were economic. Personally, I hope we return to the age of smaller books - I just can't get through the long ones these days. The middles drag, they are full of filler, nothing happens, and everything is turned into a long series of 10+ massive doorstoppers. Just *looking* at the Wheel of Time bookcase at Waterstones/Foyles gives me a length-related form of vertigo. (But I know I'm alone in that.) ..."I used to read doorstopper fantasy and science fiction but I just can't do it anymore. I also appreciate a shorter, more tightly written story. Though I'm still comfortable in the 300 page range, my days of 600-1000 page books is over.
Wheel of Time? No thanks. I didn't finish the first book. I didn't like it. Same with Terry Goodkind's stuff, and Terry Brooks.. George RR Martin? Stopped halfway through book 3. Lost the thread of the story completely.
Lou wrote: "I firmly believe that there is a large section of het romance readers who have either never heard of m/m or did but don't they they'd like it, who would actually enjoy it if they gave it a try. ..."I know you're right. I was completely unaware of it until I stumbled upon first fanfics and then "real" m/m. And now a het romance or mystery has to look really good before it tempts me!
Lou wrote: "I'd rather watch it on TV. And I used to be the person who, whenever a movie came up for discussion, said "I haven't seen it but read the book.".."Since I rarely watch tube anymore, I'll just skip it. It will give me more time to read m/m. :)
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Q&A with Josh Lanyon
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