Q&A with Josh Lanyon discussion
note: This topic has been closed to new comments.
ARCHIVE (General Topics)
>
What else are you reading? (June 2010 - May 2013) *closed*
Reggie wrote: "Hi Peeps! I'm at home recovering from the plague, cruising the webs. You should check this out from Wave's-- Hi-lar-i-ous ,p http://www.reviewsbyjessewave.com/201...
T..."
That was hilarious, I certainly don't want to read the book after that. I think
I tried one of hers once and decided they weren't for me, seems this guy agrees :)
Get well soon, Reggie.
Mod
http://www.reviewsbyjessewave.com/201..."
Thank you for that absolutely hilarious link, Reggie! And get well soon, you hear.
Mod
Darkm, I used the site Story Master, which will create a file in an epub format (including mo..."
The nice thing about The Master's Manual is that he is very clear on the idea that not everything is for everybody and every couple will be unique in how they practice and live their lifestyle. I really like the fact that he acknowledges that even while he's speaking from his own personal experience.
I think what you've said about Mr. Benson is true for any BDSM book. It's only one way to live the life out of millions.
Mod
I know I did when I read it. Not sure if I cried when Roan did or if that came before or after, but I know I did.
Mod
Nah, those were purely happy tears, I promise! Just remembering the little things they did that were good for each other, versus all the garbage they did that wasn't so good. I honestly don't think I cried when I read that book... oh wait... I take that all back. I cried at the end if I recall. I always cry at the end of a really good book. And sometimes those tears are simply because I've invested so much of my time in the characters, I feel like I've been with them through everything for their entire lives, and now they've suddenly left me.
The same is true for Ruth Sims The Phoenix. I cried at the end of that one just because I didn't know what to do with myself after finishing the book. I didn't know what to do for several days. I couldn't read anything else because it wouldn't have inovled the right characters I'd grown to love, and I couldn't write anything either.
But also, the ending to Soldiers is not the HEA it could have been if bad things hadn't happened. So, there's that tacked on. lol.
Mod
Mod
It's all a matter of cat..."
Hell yeah. That's so true. So so true.
Jordan wrote: "Love is a dog. SOOOOO true. lol. Why else would my profile pic on GR be a sweet puppy whom I miss dearly?"What happened to him, Jordan? :(
Speaking of those "heterosexual paradigms of romance" -- here's an example from a series I just got through rereading. I won't name the book or author. This character really really bothers me -- he's a serious chick-with-dick character.Specifically --
1. he repeatedly calls himself a slut or a whore
2. his knees literally go weak when the other MC is around
3. he feels overwhelmed by the other MC, and he's much smaller physically (even though he's 6 feet tall himself)
4. he's constantly putting on girlie airs
5. he repeatedly calls himself "hysterical" when he gets upset (those of you who aren't native English speakers may not realize, but "hysteria" is derived from the Greek word for "uterus" -- and in olden days, "hysteria" was applied to all sorts of problems perceived as being uniquely feminine.
6. he's emotionally unstable and a drama queen
7. he gives up his life-long home to move to another state for the other MC, while there is never any question of the other MC moving instead
8. he never ever tops, and even his young nephews-in-law call him a "butt-boy"
9. the other MC proposes to him, and gives him a ring
10. and other examples
The only nod to his supposed masculinity is his height, over 6 feet -- and heck, I'm a 6 foot tall woman myself, so that doesn't make a huge impression on me.
So here's one example of what feels to me like a mf romance disguised in mm clothing. But what sorts of characteristics bother *you* in mm romances? Is it the size differences that often occur, or D/s aspects of a relationship, or financial dependence, or what?
Also -- does inequality within a relationship necessarily equate with "heterosexual paradigms"? Can't mm relationships be just as unequal as mf ones?
Incidentally, the books I've specifically referenced above were written by a MAN.
Mod
The MC in these books is a (likely self-described) queen — a stereotype perhaps, but one that has real life counterparts, some of whom have been my friends. He does all of these things with self-awareness, bordering on (or crossing over to) camp. At most he is guilty of parody, but the character seems aware of that as well. To me the CWD (and I dislike the term) is a character clearly unaware of their excess. This isn't at all the case in these books.
Mod
And nevertheless I enjoyed those books a lot (if you are referring to the books I think you are). They were funny and made me laugh — in a good way. ;)
Johanna wrote: "Plainbrownwrapper wrote: "Speaking of those "heterosexual paradigms of romance" -- here's an example from a series I just got through rereading. I won't name the book or author. This character real..."I also love those books, or any book by the author.
Plainbrownwrapper wrote: "Speaking of those "heterosexual paradigms of romance" -- here's an example from a series I just got through rereading. I won't name the book or author. This character really really bothers me -- he..."I doubt I have read this so it's hard to say if despite it I'd love it or not :/
Darkm wrote: "Plainbrownwrapper wrote: "Speaking of those "heterosexual paradigms of romance" -- here's an example from a series I just got through rereading. I won't name the book or author. This character real..."I am not sure I have read it either, but I definitely got curious now :)So, please please please, what (and who) are you talking about?
Karen wrote: "Plainbrownwrapper wrote: "Incidentally, the books I've specifically referenced above were written by a MAN."The MC in these books is a (likely self-described) queen — a stereotype perhaps, but on..."
So -- is any MC with feminine traits -- like a queen -- necessarily conforming to that "heterosexual paradigm" which Josh seems to despise? You say something like "self-awareness" makes a difference -- well, how about a queen who is not self-aware about being a queen? Or, in mf lit, how about a female character who is aware of her feminine traits? Does that make her NOT conform to those heterosexual paradigms? Does self-awareness really make a difference?
Plainbrownwrapper wrote: "Karen wrote: "Plainbrownwrapper wrote: "Incidentally, the books I've specifically referenced above were written by a MAN."The MC in these books is a (likely self-described) queen — a stereotype p..."
I am not sure where you are headed with all these questions, and as I mentioned, I am not familiar with the book you are referring to, but a couple of thoughts anyway, probably off the track, but still... Not as an answer, more like thoughts triggered by the general discussion these last days.
I don't think a female in any kind of romance would ever refer to herself as a whore and a slut, not even for fun. I do believe these words have a different connotation when used in a m/f setting than in a m/m setting and that the words at least in some aspect of gay culture is less offensive, more like nicknames, whereas for a woman it would always be offensive. But I admit, this is just inference from several books I have read so it might not be correct. And if some find this comment offensive, I apologize, it is just a clumsy attempt to put some feelings into words.
On the other hand, there should be no doubt that inequality can exists also within a same sex relationship, we do hear about abuse between people in any kind of relationship, both physical and emotional. This is not limited to heterosexual pairings.
And lastly to one of my pet theories. If a book is done well and with human insight it can at least for me consist of almost any variation of love and life without being offensive, even if I would have done things differently in my own life or if I were to write books, in my own work. But the same thing done badly and without real understanding of how human beings' heart and mind work and connect with each other, not so much. I do have a comfort zone of course, and there are some behaviour I would never condone in real life, but it might work as literature even so. Admittedly, it would have to be immensely well written for that to happen, but there are books out there that do.
So, end of ramblings!
Anne wrote: "I am not sure I have read it either, but I definitely got curious now :)So, please please please, what (and who) are you talking about? "I don't want to run the risk of offending specific authors, nor get the discussion sidetracked by irrelevant elements of specific books, so I don't want to name anyone specifically.
Anne wrote: "I am not sure where you are headed with all these questionsMy background and mindset are firmly rooted in medicine and research, so the impulse to pick apart and examine ideas is deep in my soul. Josh and others started discussing what they perceive to be heterosexual paradigms/cliches, so I wanted to see if we could take a closer look at exactly what qualifies as such, or what elements actually bother people.
I don't think a female in any kind of romance would ever refer to herself as a whore and a slut
I have read ones that do, actually.
On the other hand, there should be no doubt that inequality can exists also within a same sex relationship, we do hear about abuse between people in any kind of relationship, both physical and emotional.
Is inequality necessarily the same thing as abuse?
If a book is done well and with human insight it can at least for me consist of almost any variation of love and life without being offensive, even if I would have done things differently in my own life or if I were to write books, in my own work. But the same thing done badly and without real understanding of how human beings' heart and mind work and connect with each other, not so much."
I pretty much agree with you here!
Plainbrownwrapper wrote: "Anne wrote: "I am not sure where you are headed with all these questionsMy background and mindset are firmly rooted in medicine and research, so the impulse to pick apart and examine ideas is dee..."
Inequality is not the same as abuse, but abuse would I think, signify inequality. My point was that inequality may exist in all kind of relationship, not only heterosexual ones, and the fact that abuse exist in same sex relationships was meant as an example of that fact.
Plainbrownwrapper wrote: "I don't want to run the risk of offending specific authors, nor get the discussion sidetracked by irrelevant elements of specific books, so I don't want to name anyone specifically. "Different authors do handle themes, plots, tropes, and characterization differently. Thus, yes, it makes a difference which books and authors that are mentioned in the discussion.
If we mention, for example, a book where a bodyguard protecting a handsome actor, who might or might not be having a paranoid delusion about a stalker and is in the verge of nervous breakdown. Readers might assume the actor is weak and hysterical, a typical heroine stereotype we hate, but it can't be farther from the truth.
Anne wrote: "My point was that inequality may exist in all kind of relationship, not only heterosexual ones. "Okay, so we can't automatically assume that an unequal relationship is taking part in any kind of "heterosexual paradigm" or "heterosexual cliche", right?
Cleon wrote: "If we mention, for example, a book where a bodyguard protecting a handsome actor, who might or might not be having a paranoid delusion about a stalker and is in the verge of nervous breakdown. Readers might assume the actor is weak and hysterical, a typical heroine stereotype we hate, but it can't be farther from the truth. "Let us stipulate that no such extraneous drama is taking place in our discussions, then.
Plainbrownwrapper wrote: "Cleon wrote: "If we mention, for example, a book where a bodyguard protecting a handsome actor, who might or might not be having a paranoid delusion about a stalker and is in the verge of nervous b..."You're missing the point. I mean it's important to know exactly which books and authors to discuss why a particular trope works or not because every author handles characters and trope differently, why some tropes work for some authors and why other authors can't make it work.
Plainbrownwrapper wrote: "Anne wrote: "My point was that inequality may exist in all kind of relationship, not only heterosexual ones. "Okay, so we can't automatically assume that an unequal relationship is taking part in..."
Since those aren't my expressions, I wouldn't really know. In any case I don't think we automatically can assume anything in general when reading or discussing fiction, it would all depend on how the author uses the various situations he or she describes, what tools in the toolbox and how they are applied. Not to mention the fact that what works for me, doesn't necessarily work for you. There are possibly some general quality markers, but aside from that it is not so easy.
Josh wrote: "I know I have a lot of women well-established in professional careers, a lot of older men who remember how it used to be (a surprising number of letters from men now in their sixties who tell me they had a Jake in their life -- or they were a Jake). ..."
It must feel gratifying (that's not quite right, but the correct word escapes me at the moment) to get a letter that like. To know you've touched someone strongly enough that they make an effort to write to you and share something that must have caused them pain at one time.
Thought-provoking discussion.Here’s what it comes down to for me. I hate seeing this genre become more trope-tied than it already is, especially through the adoption of m/f romance norms.
Remember Danny, the kid in The Shining who refers to his imaginary friend as "the little boy who lives in my mouth"? Like countless women who gravitate to m/m romance, I feel there's a gay boy living in my mouth . . . and my mind, heart, soul, even pants. (And I know y'all know what I mean. :))
Coming to this genre was liberating for me. So, unless I’m reading a parody or satire, I’m just not interested in gay fiction that hearkens back to traditional category romance and, in particular, its Holy Grail: undying love that invariably results in marriage and children. I want to read about gay men in all their butch, femme, trans, flamboyant, proud, closeted, defiant, self-doubting, confident, wounded, promiscuous, snarky, and just-another-ordinary-guy glory.
Btw, I don’t particularly mind the Studly Savior character type, but he’d better be seriously flawed and REALLY love cock. ;-)
K.Z. wrote: "Thought-provoking discussion.[...]Coming to this genre was liberating for me. So, unless I’m reading a parody or satire, I’m just not interested in gay fiction that hearkens back to traditional category romance and, in particular, its Holy Grail: undying love that invariably results in marriage and children."
Na wrote: "An heterosexual paradigm will be, in my opinion, to inevitability expect the couple to marry, have children and have one of the MC be a substitute of the old-fashioned picture of women. By staying at home, taking care of the children, be an good housewife/husband and cook while the other work and bring back the money.
So is that all there is to this dreaded "heterosexual paradigm"? Marriage and children and child care? As long as mm authors avoid the marriage/children/childcare trope, do they escape being accused of misusing the heterosexual trope altogether? Or is there more to it than that?
Plainbrownwrapper wrote: "So is that all there is to this dreaded "heterosexual paradigm"? Marriage and children and child care? As long as mm authors avoid the marriage/children/childcare trope, do they escape being accused of misusing the heterosexual trope altogether? Or is there more to it than that?"Beats me. I can only speak for myself . . . and my two former husbands who met with unfortunate ends and had to be buried in undisclosed locations. ;-)
I am doing business with more and more people who don't represent gender norms. I am around families that don't resemble cultural norms. The variety in society is expanding and I don't count much out of the realm of possibility. (Except werewolves and vampires maybe ;p)The terms I used to employ for descriptions of gender, like effeminate, Alpha, have lost a distinct meaning for me. My own coping mechanism for interacting with such a variety of people, is that I totally shut off boxing people into my known categories. I just have to let the presenting personality be. Now as I interact with the person I have to assess their needs for the situation, but that is a different process, requiring very sensitive clarification. Now, I would find it helpful for people to give me a sign that they prefer one gender term or another. But even here, I've learned to respect the person's privacy. After all it is not relevant to most situations anyway, so is it my business?
So in terms of fiction, I have an even harder time relating to a gender trope discussion. People are willing to hand over their credit card for a story or they aren't. A story, or piece of writing, works for me or it doesn't. But even here there is so much variation. When I want to be entertained, and my brain is operational, I will pick a different kind of reading material than when I am emotionally and intellectually burned out. So again it is hard for me to have a distinct definition of my own likes and dislikes.
So for me, it goes back to just letting a person or in this case a fictional character, have room to be however they represent themselves. I can have a convo about the writing or style, but their gender presentation or accuracy?? No, I've lost any reference/vocabulary to analyze this. {shrugs}
So for me, it goes back to just letting a person or in this case a fictional character, have room to be however they represent themselves. I can have a convo about the writing or style, but their gender presentation or accuracy?? No, I've lost any reference/vocabulary to analyze this. {shrugs} Thank you. That's incredibly sane and if we get all of society there, we'll all (regardless of which gender) much saner, healthier and happier.
Plainbrownwrapper wrote: "So is that all there is to this dreaded "heterosexual paradigm"? Marriage and children and child care? As long as mm authors avoid the marriage/children/childcare trope, do they escape being accused of misusing the heterosexual trope altogether? Or is there more to it than that?"I think it takes all types. Some are going to fall under the old trope (like in real life - Dan Savage speaks of how he and his lover struggled over this decision in The Commitment: Love, Sex, Marriage, and My Family), some are going to struggle to find some kind of equatable balance (like in Kaje Harper's series Home Work), some going to follow their own way through the whole thing (I'm Your Man, Something New, Ethan of Athos). Everything works.
Reggie wrote: "A story, or piece of writing, works for me or it doesn't."That's really the whole discussion's bottom line: what works for us in fiction and what doesn't. We all like/dislike certain themes, writing styles, story elements, and character types. But those preferences often (maybe usually) have little bearing on our attitudes toward real-life situations and people.
My alter-ego is reading a mainstream book by a popular and well-respected author in the murder/detective genre, and I'm amazed at the amount of head-hopping going on.
Reggie wrote: "So in terms of fiction, I have an even harder time relating to a gender trope discussion. People are willing to hand over their credit card for a story or they aren't. A story, or piece of writing, works for me or it doesn't. But even here there is so much variation. When I want to be entertained, and my brain is operational, I will pick a different kind of reading material than when I am emotionally and intellectually burned out. So again it is hard for me to have a distinct definition of my own likes and dislikes.So for me, it goes back to just letting a person or in this case a fictional character, have room to be however they represent themselves. I can have a convo about the writing or style, but their gender presentation or accuracy?? No, I've lost any reference/vocabulary to analyze this. {shrugs} "
I like this. As long as the character is happy and feels fulfilled *and* that happiness and fulfilment logically grows from the story being told, does it necessarily matter if the character reflects some imaginary trope somewhere?
I need some assistance picking my next books to read. I have a bunch of gay mysteries that have sat on my Kindle for a bit. Does anyone have experience with the following?Willing Flesh by J.S. Cook
or
Holed Up by Hank Edwards
or
His Name Is John by Dorien Grey
or
What Ever Happened to Jan Phillips? by Michael Halfhill
or
Pale as a Ghost by Stephen Osborne
or
Murder at the Windsor Club by Stephen E. Stanley
or
In the Flesh by Ethan Stone
Clearly I am suffering from too much choice! These are all unread sitting on my Kindle. In many cases I have the others in the series as well.
Hoarder? Moi?
Mod
Now now, Grumpy Bear! That's not very kind. :-D
Mod
It makes me so sad that this is being translated as examples lifted from m/f romance because surely you all gagged reading that list? Male or female was there much on that list that didn't make you wince?
Plainbrownwrapper, you mentioned a male writer. Do you think perhaps this was a misguided attempt to capture tropes the author mistakenly believed important to female readers?
Mod
Okay, well, I have no idea of who the books are by. But it seems like a lot of you get a kick out of them?
Mod
Do I give the impression I despise heterosexual paradigms? I'm not sure there is such a thing as one size fits all heterosexual paradigm, so I'm unsure why it seems I despise something I would hesitate to even define. I certainly despise bad writing and poor characterization.
Mod
..."
Okay, yes. Classic romantic suspense. But nothing about that set up is particularly heterosexual. IMHO.
Mod
I find it very touching when people take the time to write -- especially when they write from overseas or when they are older people (that sounds ageist but I don't mean it that way) and they share their personal response or their own history.
I'm someone who has often wanted to write different authors but couldn't think of what to say or didn't have the courage.
Mod
I certainly don't have any objection to people marrying and having children! My only objection is to the notion that this would be the ONLY way to have a HEA. That if you didn't aspire to these goals, it would be an indication of missing out or that something was wrong with you.
Susinok wrote: "His Name is John by Dorian Grey..."Surprisingly slow, both in the mystery of not only who John is, but also the years old murder the main character, Elliott Smith, stumbles upon. The relationship the main character starts with another is almost a side-bar to the story, so if you're looking for exciting action, this isn't the story to read. A lot of the text is in set up of the world and the main character's pass time (restoring old buildings). I haven't read any others in the series, so can't say if the pace picks up any. It took me a while to get through.
Mod
Okay, well, I have no idea of who the books are by. But it seems like a lot of you get a kick out of them?"
They work well as a cheerful, light comfort read (or did for me, at least).
Mod
1 - that there would be a natural built-in inequity in a relationship based on size or sex
2 - the smaller character has to be rescued by the bigger character
3 - that everyone wants a wedding ring or they don't feel truly committed
4 - that everyone wants a baby
5 - that red-neck sheriffs are always racist and homophobic
6 - that black BFFS are always sassy
I guess I could go on and on, but why? Is there a question that there are tired tropes in romance fiction? Is there a question as to whether these tropes are less tired for being applied to gay romance fiction? Is there a question that there all kinds of people in the world, readers and writers, and that there will always be a market for stories about serial killers, amnesia, cowboys, and foundlings?
I like what I like. I detest what I detest. We all approach fiction from a subjective standpoint based on our education and personal experience -- AND our own romantic kinks. So what seems supremely romantic to one reader may be ridiculous to another.
And luckily there are stories out there for every single one of us.
Mod
And luckily there are stories out there for every single one of us."
Well said.
I love it when tropes are skillfully overturned. The big bad, gay sheriff in a Western town - yes I like my hot, gay cowboys!
The slighter/smaller man being the more dominant one (without having a Napoleon complex.)
That sort of thing. I like it in m/f romance as well. I avoid category romance because of the marriage/baby thing.
I don't mind kids in m/m, but not as a happy ending, more as a part of the story. Single father, or uncle raising his niece or nephew. Basically stories of the struggle of raising a kid and being gay, not the vague happy ending with baby.
This topic has been frozen by the moderator. No new comments can be posted.
Q&A with Josh Lanyon
Books mentioned in this topic
Chained Melody (other topics)The Far Pavilions (other topics)
Death in Kashmir (other topics)
The Flame Trees of Thika: Memories of an African Childhood (other topics)
Mistress of the Art of Death (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
M.M. Kaye (other topics)Elspeth Huxley (other topics)
Lauren Willig (other topics)
Charlie Cochet (other topics)
Damon Suede (other topics)
More...
http://www.reviewsbyjessewave.com/201...
The poor writer didn't get many stars but the review is soooo worth reading. Here is the intro--
(Hi, Everybody! I let my cousin from Brooklyn, Shlomo, who was visiting for Hanukkah, write my review. Mike and I were too busy playing dreidel and wrapping presents. Shlomo uses a lot of Yiddish, so I translated it in footnotes. I hope Wave isn’t too angry with me that I didn’t ask her first. I also hope you enjoy Shlomo’s writing. He’s a great guy -Stuart)