Q&A with Josh Lanyon discussion
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What else are you reading? (June 2010 - May 2013) *closed*
Susinok wrote: "Josh Said: "I think what makes me impatient is the idea that it can't be a real and lasting love if it doesn't involve marriage and picket fences. I never wanted to be married. This was never an is..."When a m/m story progresses to a children phase, my eyes automatically glaze over. Me, personally, it bores.
Susinok wrote: "I would have been happy with a Princess Bride ending, with a perfect kiss. Let me fill in the blanks.Since I come to romance very late in my reading life, just the past three years really, I am firmly in the English major world of expecting things to go bad.
I don't need marriage, babies, and such spelled out for me. Just end the thing sensibly and I'm a happy camper."
I have the same reaction.
But that seems to be a big thing now in m/m romance, doesn't it? How ironic. Given all the squawking about "chicks with dicks," I don't understand how gay relationships that follow the Harlequin HEA model have become so popular. (No judgment; I just find it peculiar.)
KZ, you are not alone in your findings... LoL!
Been happy about some great reads lately...1- Continued with James Buchanan and read Hard Fall. Very enjoyable book, and I thought how Joe balanced his faith and his sexuality was both interesting and very meaningful. Looking forward to checking out the sequels.
2- The Student Prince, which I think I first learned about on this thread sometime this past summer. Very good story, which is also a long Merlin fanfic, but even besides that, can be seen as just an excellent contemporary romance novel about two very different people forced to be roommates in college and the hijinks, both romantic and magical, that ensue. Great read! I'm so thankful I saw that recommendation months ago, so thank you, Lanyon readers!
3- Close Protection is another free online read, and recently finished (at 250,000 words). Very good romantic suspense about a developing relationship between a bodyguard and his principle. Sounds cliche, but it was very engaging with a lot of interesting and complicated characters. Really enjoyable read.
So, lots of good stuff lately, not to mention all the Christmas coda goodness happening over at Josh's blog. :D That's been a real treat!
Emanuela ~plastic duck~ wrote: "I'm reading Mr. Benson: A Novel by John Preston. I'm rather speechless. I wouldn't say it's beyond my comfort zone, it's probably beyond my comprehension zone, but still it's almost impossible to p..."I've read it a while ago.
While I obviously have no problems with BDSM, I have to say some S/M scenes were a bit hard to read.
But I think the truth is there are many roads to happiness and contentment and true and lasting love -- they don't all lead to a gold band and 2.5 kiddies.
I wholeheartedly agree.
I do believe people usually are meant to find one or more significant others. But what works for one may not work for another.
ttg is there somewhere I could download the whole pdf for Close protection?
Susinok wrote: "Josh Said: "I think what makes me impatient is the idea that it can't be a real and lasting love if it doesn't involve marriage and picket fences. I never wanted to be married. This was never an is..."I missed this discussion thread. I quite like diversity in my romances. I don't mind a HEA with ministers, rings and kids, but I am just as happy for the characters to be living separately by the end of the book and just be dating happily, or some kind of HFN. I think as long as they are together in a way that satisfies them and it is part of a good story then I am satisfied.
I will read all kinds of romance but i don't read m/f romances where the women need rescuing by prince charming etc etc. I did read so many of those in my teens (Barbara Cartland) but funnily enough I just don't believe in the picket fence. Life is far too uncertain so I just believe in being thankful for what ever blessings and comfort people find in relationships with each other whether a picket fence is involved or not.
I like diversity in my m/m reading. I don't always like my stories to be so Mills and Boony. At the moment I am reading Death Trick by Richard Stevenson http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/61...
I am enjoying this. It is a mystery but the main character Donald is in a relationship. The story is far heavier on the mystery than the romance and it has a kind of understated humour. This is the first in the series and I have had these on my tbr list for ages. I am looking forward to reading a few more in the series to see how the characters develop.
Ijeoma wrote: "Susinok wrote: "Josh Said: "I think what makes me impatient is the idea that it can't be a real and lasting love if it doesn't involve marriage and picket fences. I never wanted to be married. This..."Diversity and variation is always good :)
Mod
How ironic. Given all the squawking about "chicks with dicks," I don't understand how gay relationships that follow the Harlequin ..."
This continues to be one of the most fascinating -- and puzzling -- aspects. The number of women, both readers and writers, who profess to detest the paradigms of heterosexual romance, but then glom those very paradigms (multiplied to the max in some cases) to same sex relationships. It's in the new lesbian romance fiction too!
I mean, I've read as many or more men fainting and crying and having breakdowns over their relationships in male male fiction than I have in contemporary hetersexual romance.
So what the heck can that be ABOUT?
Why do women who profess to detest helpless female characters who think only of love and romance and babies seem to adore that same repulsive dynamic when it's fantastically and improbably plastered onto male characters?
Josh wrote: "I mean, I've read as many or more men fainting and crying and having breakdowns over their relationships in male male fiction than I have in contemporary hetersexual romance.So what the heck can that be ABOUT?
Why do women who profess to detest helpless female characters who think only of love and romance and babies seem to adore that same repulsive dynamic when it's fantastically and improbably plastered onto male characters?"
The spirit of perversity? Turning tables? It's fun to see the "big, strong" guy break down like a little girl? Who knows?
I do think there are a variety of factors involved, including manga/anime where effeminate males predominate (not that everyone reads those, I just think that it is something to consider). I wonder if the age of the reader(s) makes a difference?
I never got into reading Harlequin or Silhouette books. I came late to reading romance several years ago. It has been interesting journey to make and I'm still discovering things to like and despise about the genre. One of the things I really hate, however, is when the author spends way too much time on angsty characters. I had to return one book recently because of this - it's no fun to read.
I have no problem with crying. Crying means you're human. Stoic is alright too, but even that can go to extremes.
Josh wrote: "Why do women who profess to detest helpless female characters who think only of love and romance and babies seem to adore that same repulsive dynamic when it's fantastically and improbably plastered onto male characters?"Hmm. I don't, personally -- I prefer mm with characters who are equal partners, whether they desire babies etc. or not -- but that's an interesting question.
First, are we sure that's true on a grand scale? For instance, one of the most popular mm series I know of is the Cut & Run books -- and they certainly don't have that dynamic.
Second, are we sure that those women who do "profess to detest helpless female characters" are the same women who "adore that same repulsive dynamic" in male characters?
Ijeoma wrote: "At the moment I am reading Death Trick by Richard Stevenson http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/61...I am enjoying this. It is a mystery but the main character Donald is in a relationship. The story is far heavier on the mystery than the romance and it has a kind of understated humour. This is the first in the series and I have had these on my tbr list for ages. I am looking forward to reading a few more in the series to see how the characters develop."
Fun series. I like Don and Timmy. Stevenson doesn't go into depth about their relationship, but they work well together, bouncing ideas off each other when Don's working a case. It's obvious they're a real couple. I also recommend the movies produced by the Here! Network: Netflix: Don Stratchey.
Plainbrownwrapper wrote: "First, are we sure that's true on a grand scale? For instance, one of the most popular mm series I know of is the Cut & Run books -- and they certainly don't have that dynamic."I'm afraid this is the direction it's heading though :)
I think it might have something to do with the push for marriage equality -- which is unquestionably a very, very good thing -- as well as gay dads and lesbian moms speaking more openly and proudly about their kids -- another very good thing. Now, combine writers' and readers' desire to be supportive with "nature" and "nurture": women's maternal instinct, as well as the romance paradigm that's been foisted on them from childhood on. That's how you get Yeehaw! Hi ho and away we go down the primrose path!I don't think most authors or readers are even aware of the paradox.
I wonder how much of that is fuelled by mega-hits that prominently featured children and other authors going: "Clearly, that's the reason for the book's success."Or the "me, too" principle.
Mod
..."
I have no problem with crying or even fainting. I have no problem with emotional breakdowns. Provided none of these things define the character. But I don't find weakness or foolishness attractive. Not in real life and not in fiction. This is not to say that we are all not occasionally weak and foolish, just that if we are MOSTLY weak and foolish...well, I don't know anyone who finds that appealing.
Re: Crying - I remember a writing teacher's advice that was basically: "If your characters cry, your readers won't." It's a release of tension that means that many readers won't feel the pain as much. HOWEVER, it can be a strong point in a character's emotional arch. I've had very tough guys that started crying, and inevitably, it's a huge turning-point (and very often, they only cry after the crisis is over and when they think they are safe).
Mod
..."
Pretty much, yeah. Not universal, by any means. But enough that even I, not the most observant person, couldn't help but notice the pattern.
Someone mentioned age, and maybe that is a factor?
Mod
I am enjoying this. It is a mystery but the main character Donald is in a relationship. The story is far heavier on the mystery than the romance and it has a kind of understated humour. This is the first in the series and I have had these on my tbr list for ages. I am looking forward to reading a few more in the series to see how the characters develop.
..."
I think these fall comfortably in "gay mystery" versus "male male romance" category.
Aleksandr wrote: "I wonder how much of that is fuelled by mega-hits that prominently featured children and other authors going: "Clearly, that's the reason for the book's success."Or the "me, too" principle."
I'm sure that's part of the mix, Aleks.
Mod
Or the "me, too" principle."
Possibly so.
I mean, as in the popularity of babies and cowboys and runaway brides in mainstream romance, a lot of writers decide to write based on what seems to be selling.
Josh wrote: "I have no problem with crying or even fainting. I have no problem with emotional breakdowns. Provided none of these things define the character."It's all a matter of catalyst, isn't it? Nonstop hand-wringing drives me nuts, but I expect some reaction when a character has an emotionally-charged experience.
Too much stoicism, and we're back to the square-jawed, stiff-upper-lipped Harlequin hero . . . which I find just as indigestible as the marriage-and-baby-craving heroine.
Aleksandr wrote: "Re: Crying - I remember a writing teacher's advice that was basically: "If your characters cry, your readers won't." It's a release of tension that means that many readers won't feel the pain as mu..."I never thought about it that way, but it's true. I think the only book where the character cried and I too at the same time was Come Unto These Yellow Sands.
Josh wrote: "K.Z. wrote: "But that seems to be a big thing now in m/m romance, doesn't it? How ironic. Given all the squawking about "chicks with dicks," I don't understand how gay relationships that follow t..."
Could it be a case of what is tired and old when done in a m/f setting seems refreshing and new when both protags are male? The counterpart to the crying, passive female used to be the alpha male. So a male that is not stoic and alpha-like but more emotional and expressive is something new. Badly written though or with little to nothing of insight into the human heart, it gets too much.
Anne wrote: "Could it be a case of what is tired and old when done in a m/f setting seems refreshing and new when both protags are male? The counterpart to the crying, passive female used to be the alpha male. So a male that is not stoic and alpha-like but more emotional and expressive is something new. Badly written though or with little to nothing of insight into the human heart, it gets too much."That works.
I like that male characters can express more than anger these days. I read The Silver Linings Playbook earlier this year and the father had only one emotional outlet: anger. He was totally incapable of showing anything else to his wife (until she goes on strike) and his sons. Worse yet, his temper was determined by how well/poorly his favorite football team was doing over the course of the season. It limited his dealings with his family and limited his character too.
Darkm wrote: "ttg is there somewhere I could download the whole pdf for Close protection?"Darkm, I used the site Story Master, which will create a file in an epub format (including mobi) and email it to you. You just have to fill out the form with the URL of the story, your email, and what format you want. It might take a couple days depending on the queue, but it's very handy for big sites like fanfiction.net, fictionpress.com, etc. (They only pull from a list of specific sites though. You'll see what sites they allow on their form.)
(Close Protection is also archived on fictionpress so I used that URL.)
I also used Story Master to get a mobi version of The God Eaters, another free online original novel that was also quite excellent and highly recommended.
Josh wrote: "Pretty much, yeah. Not universal, by any means. But enough that even I, not the most observant person, couldn't help but notice the pattern.
Someone mentioned age, and maybe that is a factor? "
Ehhh, I dispute the validity of your claim.
I agree that there are women "who profess to detest the paradigms of heterosexual romance". In fact, I am often one of those myself. And I also agree that there are women who "adore that same repulsive dynamic" in male characters. But I see no glaring evidence that those are the same group of women. Also, I think we need to define some terms -- or at least provide some specific examples -- of what constitutes "that same repulsive dynamic" within the mm literature.
As for age -- which age group would you assign to that cohort?
Let me briefly interrupt this discussion to let you all know that the Kindle edition of Mystic River is only $2.99 at Amazon. I just got it.
Mod
Let us know how you liked it, K.Z. :) I have the paperback... maybe I should reread it. I definitely remember liking it.
ETA:
@ K.Z: I have to confess that I never got all the way through the The Secret History by Donna Tartt. I think that what you said about it earlier was quite spot on. I'll probably give it a second try later on.
Lori wrote: Fun series. I like Don and Timmy. Stevenson doesn't go into depth about their relationship, but they work well together, bouncing ideas off each other when Don's working a case. It's obvious they're a real couple. I also recommend the movies produced by the Here! Network: Netflix: Don Stratchey. Great thanks - will do some watching during the Christmas break :)
Johanna wrote: "ETA:@ K.Z: I have to confess that I never got all the way through the The Secret History by Donna Tartt. I think that what you said about it earlier was quite spot on."
It's worth finishing, Johanna. At least that was my feeling at the time. What reminds us we're reading "literary" fiction, you know, is how it taxes our patience. ;-)
K.Z. wrote: "What reminds us we're reading "literary" fiction, you know, is how it taxes our patience. ;-) "Ain't that the truth!! It's why I stopped...
Mod
Oh, yeah. :)
Mod
I just ..."
I actually didn't. No. Of course, just because of their length alone, I don't think I'd want to attempt that. I'm hoping sometime early next year (like January/February) I can find the time to read the next book.
You're review hit the nail on the head. You almost made me cry there, remembering all those little things that lead to that major quote from Dan. So true! OMG, I love that book. lol.
Mod
Ha! Funny thing, I just picked up Masters Manual: A Handbook of Erotic Dominance by Jack Rinella for research for my current WIP and he mentions Mr. Benson as a good read and as a book he used to guide his first M/s relationship (along with a few other book and people, of course). I haven't read it yet, but maybe I'll put it on my TBR shelf.
Mod
Darkm, I used the site Story Master, which will create a file in an epub format (including mobi) and emai..."
Wow... I did not know there was such a site. Thanks for that link, I'll have to check it out.
Mod
Pretty much, yeah. Not universal, by any means. But enough that even I, not the most observant person, couldn't help but notice the pattern.
Someone mentioned age, and maybe that is ..."
As for what age we're talking... based on my previous experiences in fandom, I would put the age at young teens 14+ years old. But that's really just me taking a guess at age after reading the material. It sounded like it came from someone that age, and sorta resembled stuff I wrote as a young teen.
For the most part, I think teens are overly emotional (the way they're meant to be) and want an overly happy ending to compensate for all the garbage that happened to the characters in the story. Or, heck, maybe they're compensating for a really good family situation they didn't/don't have at home.
Who really knows. But at least those are some ideas I've had rolling around in my big empty head for awhile.
Mod
I given little thought to white picket fences, perhaps because I live in a world of crumbling adobe walls. ;-)
In my twenties, I never considered being married, likely because I cast myself as more "Bohemian," lived through the 1970s feminist movement, and imagined ideal relationships as various takes on menage.
In my thirties, I and my circle of friends made art, coupled-up, got married, bought homes, made babies, found new jobs/moved away, made more or less art.
For most of my life my reading choices have been literary fiction and "darker" genre fiction (mystery series unlikely to end with HEAs), with a few exceptions.
Now, I've been married/monogamous for 30 years, have two adult daughters, and read almost exclusively m/m romance.
So does this make me a typical m/m reader? Well, why not? At least for this group of eclectic individuals.
Men and babies? It's a fairly irresistible trope (although not a personal favorite), like those movies where the single guy "borrows" a baby to attract women. It's almost as familiar as the notion of being the only girl who can redeem the bad boy.
It happens that a book I'm currently reading (historical) is the first where I really can't say that the male MC couldn't easily be replaced by a female. I was more or less enjoying it, then this began to bother me — not because the MC has stereotypical gender traits, rather because his traits are stereotypical feisty sub/fem/younger partner that seem gender optional. But incidentally gender-optional, rather than intentionally, if that makes any sense. Well, I'm only midway and that could change... if I stick with it.
ttg wrote: "Darkm wrote: "ttg is there somewhere I could download the whole pdf for Close protection?"Darkm, I used the site Story Master, which will create a file in an epub format (including mobi) and emai..."
Thank you :)
Jordan I think Mr Benson gives good insight on a particular kind of S/M relationship, but I doubt it can be seen as "the perfect example". Even liking pain and humiliation, I wouldn't trade places with the characters in there, for example :)
Mod
I never thought about it that way, but it's true. I think the only book where the character cried and I too at the same time was Come Unto These Yellow Sands."
I find the "If your characters cry, your readers won't." advice very interesting, because it seems to be true (at least in my case). I really tried to think other examples when I have cried with the character other than Come Unto These Yellow Sands, but that's the only one I, too, come up with.
Johanna wrote: "I find the "If your characters cry, your readers won't." advice very interesting, because it seems to be true (at least in my case). I really tried to think other examples when I have cried with the character other than Come Unto These Yellow Sands, but that's the only one I, too, come up with. "The only romance book that has ever made me cry -- mm or mf -- is Bloodlines by Andrea Speed. And it isn't really "romance" so much as "UF with a gay guy having romantic relationships". You could call it PNR, but I hate that term.
In any case -- I read it twice, and it made me cry both times. Roan did cry at least once...maybe more, but it sure pushed my buttons anyway! In fact, this book seems rather infamous for making *everyone* cry when they read it...
Mod
Hey, no crying. ;) It seems that Vadim's and Dan's story makes many of the readers cry (a lot), but that wasn't my reaction for some reason — although it was extremely touching at times. Or maybe the first book Soldiers was the happy book and all the misery and crying is still ahead of me. ;)
Mod
I've been following this particular discussion with growing interest. :) When I met hubby a long time ago, I very, very soon realized that he's the one — the love of my life. We didn't see any reason not to marry and so we did. We've never had any strong desire to have kids (even though the society/people around us seem to expect that that would be the proper way to proceed) and at least currently we are happy with the 0.5 furry one we have. ;) And I never actually dreamed of having my own house, but as it turned out I have a few meters of "picket fence" (or something like that...) these days anyway.
What I'm trying to say is that all these things don't have anything to do with happiness and love. Love is not a ring, nor 2.5 kids, a house and a Golden Retriever. And this is why I don't expect such things to make the happiness "complete" for the main couple when it comes to the books I read. I actually have a hard time imagining that anyone could think that way.
This is why I love the way Josh ends his books. There are no magically appearing kids (from relatives who happen to die in the car accident, of course) or some other cheesy and sappy way to make the happiness between the main couple "official" and "complete". Some of you already mentioned how nice it is to have diversity in the stories and that's very true.
I enjoy that Josh doesn't spell out all the details in the end of each story, but trusts readers to have some imagination of their own — while he gives the hints. He writes so carefully considered, believable characters and great plots that he never leaves us unsatisfied — we've learned to know his characters so well, that it's not a mission impossible to imagine what their future together might bring their way. :) Because just like Josh said earlier, there are many roads to happiness.
And as for the typical m/m reader... if you guys figure this one out, please let me know. ;) I'm not much into categorizing people, but... since we all here on this site enjoy m/m and I see you guys as intelligent, vibrant, kind and friendly people, I don't mind to be called a typical m/m reader. :) This is not an easy thing to define though... I don't like ALL the m/m books. Maybe it's like being a dog person, but not liking poodles and chihuahuas and... ;)
Johanna wrote: "Karen wrote: "I given little thought to white picket fences, perhaps because I live in a world of crumbling adobe walls. ;-)"I've been following this particular discussion with growing interest. ..."
Love is
There. I fix it for you. :D
On the other note, no, I don't want kids, but I really want a dog!
I generally dislike kids in M/M books unless it's done very well, or the kids are part of the plot, like Love and Devotion by Tere Michael series. Hate, hate the ending where the characters' biological clock suddenly blare and they must have kids or else.
Mod
There. I fix it for you. :D"
Oh LOL! :) This is what I meant when I said that you guys are so smart and so much fun to be around! *chuckle*
Mod
It's all a matter of catalyst, isn't ..."
Well, plus it's the contrast that makes it all effective. It's the enough-to-make-a-strong-man-cry factor. It's just not nearly as interesting when something happens to make a weak man cry. Or a weak woman. But when a strong, resilient character finally breaks? Well, if the strength and resilience have been realistically portrayed, it's moving.
Mod
Pretty much, yeah. Not universal, by any means. But enough that even I, not the most observant person, couldn't help but notice the pattern.
Someone mentioned age, and maybe that is ..."
Well, you know I'm going by years of comments and letters and first hand experience. But it's okay to contest. I'm not running a scientific experiment, after all, just recognizing patterns. I can't get more specific without actually naming authors and readers, and it would not be productive to go there. ;-)
Mod
Pretty much, yeah. Not universal, by any means. But enough that even I, not the most observant person, couldn't help but notice the pattern.
Someone mention..."
I remember the first time a kid in junior high wrote me. This was not long after I got on the internet and the only books I had out were the first three AEs. I was alarmed that this child was reading my work.
I find that funny now given how restrained the first editions of those books actually were.
I know fandoms have quite a cross section in age -- Pros, which has been around since the dawn of time, had a lot of 50+ I believe the author of Larton is in her seventies, if I'm not mistaken. But I kind of doubt whether that's typical of most currently popular fandoms?
I *suspect* my own readership might be a little older than the m/m norm -- but then the m/m norm is probably changing as more and more readers decide to sample stories with same sex relationships. I know I have a lot of women well-established in professional careers, a lot of older men who remember how it used to be (a surprising number of letters from men now in their sixties who tell me they had a Jake in their life -- or they were a Jake).
Mod
..."
Right. In fact, this is what makes marketing tough and why so many beginning writers make the mistake of sending out promo that reads IF YOU LIKE MYSTERIES, YOU'LL LOVE THIS BOOK!!!
But what if I only like hardboiled mysteries? What if I can't bear police procedurals or amateur sleuths or cute clever cats? What if I can't stand a romance in my mystery?
And it's just the same with m/m. Just because I prefer two male protagonists doesn't mean I want to read about two guys raising a baby or chasing steers or shapeshifting. There are a lot of variables beyond the most basic genre definitions.
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Q&A with Josh Lanyon
Books mentioned in this topic
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Death in Kashmir (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
M.M. Kaye (other topics)Elspeth Huxley (other topics)
Lauren Willig (other topics)
Charlie Cochet (other topics)
Damon Suede (other topics)
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And I become tired of fictional constructs where the only possible REAL happy ending involves wedding rings and ministers. Let alone babies which...really. The very thought makes me feel faint.
:-D "
I totally agree. When I first tried romance in the 90s I stopped because they ended so predictably. Marriage and the heroine pregnant. Ugh!
I would have been happy with a Princess Bride ending, with a perfect kiss. Let me fill in the blanks.
Since I come to romance very late in my reading life, just the past three years really, I am firmly in the English major world of expecting things to go bad.
I don't need marriage, babies, and such spelled out for me. Just end the thing sensibly and I'm a happy camper.