Q&A with Josh Lanyon discussion
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What else are you reading? (June 2010 - May 2013) *closed*
Cheryl wrote: "Anne wrote: " That's the book, and I kept having a niggling feeling I got her name wrong."I didn't even notice until you mentioned it. I guess it's a combination of the brain fixing things for yo..."
I'm a huge Bujold fan. Within the same story universe she also has a community of "quaddies"-- a group bioengineered to have a second set of arms instead of legs. They were designed to work in zero gravity, and then someone came along and figured out artificial gravity for space ships, making them obsolete. Bujold constantly comes back to the idea of genetics-- how we control them, what happens when we tinker with them, how reproductive freedoms and restrictions shape a society, and how some societies accept restrictions that others never would. Which sounds pretty dry, but she's created such wonderful characters, and such intricate adventures and worlds, that her books are anything but dry. What truly boggles me is that she wrote the whole Vorkosigan series out of chronological order. I can't imagine plotting 12 or 13 books so tightly woven together, with multiple societies and reoccuring characters, let alone doing the whole thing out of order.
Anyway, to get back to the subject of m/m, I think that some of the lack of gay community could be about the average author's, and reader's, lack of experience. But I also think that some of it is about limited page space. I don't know what the genre average is, but the vast majority of the m/m I've read has been well under 200 pages. The lovers aren't exactly dropped in a blank room together, but there isn't room for an intricate web of relationships, either. If a mostly-straight cast creates dramatic friction, or a mostly-gay cast clears the path for a different type of story to be told, that's what happens.
Liade wrote: "Yes! I read a number of mysteries by a gay author and I got really really bored by the fact that not only he and his friends were gay (maybe not so surprising) but also all the crimes were gay-centred. I'm aware that the infamous "ok homo world" doesn't depict reality, but then neither does an all-out gay one. "I don't know, have you read Marshall Thornton's 'Boystown' series?
It takes place in Chicago in the early 1980s and features a gay PI solving crimes that take place largely within the gay community and also follows his love life.
The same with the Donald Strachey series set between 1981 and the present day, and the books by Anthony Bidulka set in Canada in the present day.
Pretty much all of these characters have straight friends and straight families. But they are also tied closely to the gay community and the plots of the books cover (although not exclusively) gay issues.
In large cities especially, whether it is Chicago, London or Toronto, it is quite possible to have a social and professional life that is dominated by the gay world and there's nothing unrealistic about that.
I lived on Capital Hill in Seattle in the 80's and it certainly seemed like one could live in an all gay world then/there, except of course for visits home to Iowa or wherever at Christmas.
I'm reading Louise Penny's Armand Gamache mysteries. They are set in Quebec and remind of old-fashioned Agatha Christie stories. While the mysteries are good, what really shines is characterization. Absolutely fantastic, I don't remember when was the last time the characters were this rich, this layered. No black and white for Ms. Penny. I am enjoying the books immensely.
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Very astute.
Now I'm going to say something quite unromantic for a writer of romance. I think we all owe more to our friendships than we do our lovers. If you think about those intense bonds we form, particularly from junior high through college -- I think those relationships (almost more than any others, including family), shape who we become. And to some extent who we end up loving.
Also, not to be discounted, are the enemies we form at those vulerable stages.
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And right now I'm reading books almost exclusively by gay male authors, and so there's a lot of wish fulfillment. All the gay guys are gorgeous and all the straight gorgeous guys are merely closeted. :-) And every guy who isn't secretly gay, is homophobic. There's no middle ground.
Josh wrote: "Now I'm going to say something quite unromantic for a writer of romance. I think we all owe more to our friendships than we do our lovers. If you think about those intense bonds we form, particularly from junior high through college -- I think those relationships (almost more than any others, including family), shape who we become. And to some extent who we end up loving. Also, not to be discounted, are the enemies we form at those vulerable stages."
I'm sure I've read somewhere, particularly for men, that the friendships and social circles formed in school and college into the early 20s are generally the ones that remain for the next couple of decades. It's rare to make a large number of new friends for example by the time you're in your 30s. Although having moved around so much myself I think I might be more the exception that proves the rule.
Josh wrote: "And right now I'm reading books almost exclusively by gay male authors, and so there's a lot of wish fulfillment. All the gay guys are gorgeous and all the straight gorgeous guys are merely closeted. :-) And every guy who isn't secretly gay, is homophobic. There's no middle ground. "Which books are these? lol
One other thing I have noticed, although maybe it's just me, is that gay American authors seem to write books inhabited uniquely by 'the beautiful people'. God forbid anyone shouldn't have a six pack or a jaw that could slice cheese. Obviously I don't include you on that list Josh!
I don't notice that so much with British authors.
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God. I think you're right. We Americans do have an obsession with looks and hygiene. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, by the way. :-D
I can't help it! I am going to bet money that I am not the only American (United States citizen) in this group that has a - bleached my teeth, b - uses lots of deoderant (hey, I've been to Europe and this is worth mentioning), c - has a grooming tool for excess body hair in every imaginable stretch of real estate...
OR began obsessing about my looks in my 30s. And let me tell you, this is not a "gay" thing. This is a...western culture thing.
Am I right? Or am I the only honest person here?
Christopher wrote: "...inhabited uniquely by 'the beautiful people'..."I think it's difficult to make romance readers believe that you could fall for a less than perfect lover, even if it happens daily. One of the first thing I notice in a person is the smile. Perfect teeth are a delight to see, but I confess my fastest insta-lust was for a guy who had crooked front teeth. They overlapped a bit and were less prominent than the canines, I don't know how to explain, but it was perfect on his face and the thought of running my tongue on his teeth and feeling the imperfection made my blood boil. Sorry for TMI.
Well, in Special Forces, the authors introduced Dima, a doctor with a slight teeth imperfection and I adored him...
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I think it's difficult to make romance readers believe that you could fall for a less than perfect lover, even if it happe..."
Perfection is dull. Perfection is an unrealistic expectation. Being the best that you can be...this is classic American sales slogan.
(Why am I now speaking like enemy of Moose and Squirrel?)
Josh wrote: "Christopher wrote: "Josh wrote: "And right now I'm reading books almost exclusively by gay male authors, and so there's a lot of wish fulfillment. All the gay guys are gorgeous and all the straight..."Well, most Asians are very concerned about their looks too. There are hair salon & spas practically at every corner of the street, not to mention slimming center & stuff. But I can honestly say I don't do the things you do though. Too lazy & costly. LOL. (not the deodorant obviously, but we shower twice a day here as a habit.) But there's nothing wrong with it.
Josh wrote: "Am I right? Or am I the only honest person here?"You're not the only one. I use a body lotion after shower for when I've just exercised, one for when it's an ordinary shower, one for when I have hopes of spending a great time. I spend an ungodly amount of time for my nails and hands. And I'm obsessed over my hair. But I have the biggest nose you could conceive, fat hates my upper body but adores my lower body, and who said that blue/green eyes are always beautiful? Mine are a dull muddy color. And I'm 5'1". Oooh, and when I'm tired I can't control one of my eyes which begins to wander until I make it submit. I could never be romance material, lol. Does this frustrate me sometimes? Yes. Never got over my adolescence apparently.
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As for bleaching teeth... I would never do that in my life, unless I had really ugly teeth. But I don't. They're just so-so. A friend once commented about how much deoderant I used in the locker room in highschool once. Maybe I do use a lot, but at least people don't say I smell bad! At the same time though, I don't use makeup either. Not unless I'm going out, and even then, it only serves to make my skin tone the same all over. It's a natural look, not a painted-clown look.
I'm totally not "pretty" and I don't particularly care, or worry about it. You have to like me for me, and not who I look like on the outside. When I find that person, it'll be an awesome day.
BUT, that's just me. So, Josh, you're not the only one being honest here. The rest of the country, barring Josh and a few others, is looks obsessed, to the point where people look like dolls, and that's just scary. Imagine looking like your skin is made of plastic. No thanks.
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Emanuela, you and me both. I'm soooo not romance material. I just thank God my awesome friend and photographer knows how to photoshop out pimples. He doesn't make me look fake, but makes me look good. He did my profile pic, and you can tell I ain't no beauty queen in it.
But hey, maybe that's why I read/write so many romance novels. lol.
Jordan wrote: "Cleon, I think you got it right. lazy and costly about sums it all up. How am I supposed to find time to write if I'm busy getting myself all dolled up? lol. I'm surprised you shower twice a day. I..."It's the difference in local weather, climate, and habit, Jordan. We're taught since we're kids we have to shower twice a day. If you live in my area, you'll feel the necessity too.
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Christopher wrote: "Josh wrote: "And right now I'm reading books almost exclusively by gay male authors, and so there's a lot of wish fulfillment. All the gay guys are gorgeous and all the straight gorgeous guys are m..."It's not only gay authors who suffer from the idea that lovers should be perfect, it is the same in f/m romances as well. The thing is, those guys or gals that are described to be so perfect, they are so boring! When I fall for someone, there needs to be that little bit of imperfection, crooked teeth, a scar, crow's feet that shows you smile a lot... In short, it must show that the person is alive and has lived a little. I don't fall for a plastic doll. A plastic doll doesn't have charm, and charm is what gets me every time. And if the loved one was perfection, how could he love me with all my imperfections? But then of course, I live in the real world, not in a romance..
I'll go with Josh on how much effort I put into looking more "perfect". I just won't admit to what I do :) Just that I do a lot!
And I agree with the consensus on physical perfection being boring in real life and on paper. I love looking at pretty men, but across the board it's not pretty that most of us go for (c'mon, Daniel Craig is the hottest guy in the universe, but he is NOT pretty).
And I agree with the consensus on physical perfection being boring in real life and on paper. I love looking at pretty men, but across the board it's not pretty that most of us go for (c'mon, Daniel Craig is the hottest guy in the universe, but he is NOT pretty).
Jordan wrote: "Yup, I probably would, you're right. Heck, sometimes I take a bath, followed by a shower. The bath is nice and relaxing with a good book, and the shower is cleansing. It's nice."I do this, too. You're right on the relaxing/cleansing; the biggest thing to me is that I have some random skin issues. I love to use bubble baths, bath salts, & bath oils, but if I don't wash them off my skin afterward I deal with itchy dermatitis, which is never ever sexy! (or pleasant, for that matter...)
Josh wrote: "God. I think you're right. We Americans do have an obsession with looks and hygiene. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, by the way. :-D I can't help it! I am going to bet money that I am not the only American (United States citizen) in this group that has a - bleached my teeth, b - uses lots of deoderant (hey, I've been to Europe and this is worth mentioning), c - has a grooming tool for excess body hair in every imaginable stretch of real estate...
OR began obsessing about my looks in my 30s. And let me tell you, this is not a "gay" thing. This is a...western culture thing.
Am I right? Or am I the only honest person here?"
How did we all start comparing our personal grooming routines? I think that's your fault Josh!
As for me, I'm happy with some generic shower gel for washing purposes (I mean, body lotion, shampoo...it's all basically the same stuff - read the labels on the bottle people!!) and a spray of deodorant. I'm a crappy gay in this respect...I never exfoliate and practically never moisturise. I mean...who has the time?
Luckily I don't need my teeth bleached. Courtesy of the National Health Service I received thousands of pounds worth of orthodentistry as a teen and now have a hollywood smile that I have been assured is so bright it virtually pins guys to the wall! Yay for socialised healthcare!! Woo-hoo!
Josh wrote: "(Why am I now speaking like enemy of Moose and Squirrel?)"Ha! Boris Badenov? That was an unexpected and very pleasant zing down Memory Lane. :-)
What an interesting discussion. I'm still mulling this stuff over so have nothing to contribute at the moment.
Cris S. wrote: "I'll go with Josh on how much effort I put into looking more "perfect". I just won't admit to what I do :) Just that I do a lot!And I agree with the consensus on physical perfection being borin..."
I'll admit to deliberately seeking out stories with less-than-physically-perfect characters, people you grow to love through their thoughts and actions rather than being struck instantly by their appearance. Or older heroes (and heroines, though they're harder to find sometimes) as they've generally "earned" the right to relax a bit. I especially like the ones about couples who are starting to fall apart, but manage to find their way back together again.
Anne wrote: "t's not only gay authors who suffer from the idea that lovers should be perfect, it is the same in f/m romances as well. The thing is, those guys or gals that are described to be so perfect, they are so boring! When I fall for someone, there needs to be that little bit of imperfection, crooked teeth, a scar, crow's feet that shows you smile a lot... In short, it must show that the person is alive and has lived a little. I don't fall for a plastic doll. A plastic doll doesn't have charm, and charm is what gets me every time. And if the loved one was perfection, how could he love me with all my imperfections? But then of course, I live in the real world, not in a romance.. ."Personally I find guys that are too 'perfect' looking more than a little intimidating. I have (occasionally) managed to persuade a guy that is more than a little out of my league into my bed...but the sex with them has never been all that great because half the time I'm staring at them in a sort of stunned 'oh my god I can't believe this is happening' way and the other half of me is wallowing in low self esteem comparing me to them.
I'm not saying that physical attributes are unimportant - you can't have great sex with a nice personality after all - but...well...I think imperfections are actually kind of hot.
And I guess I like to read books about those kind of guys.
Josh wrote: "OR began obsessing about my looks in my 30s. And let me tell you, this is not a "gay" thing. This is a...western culture thing. Am I right? Or am I the only honest person here?"
As a fellow "product" of western culture, I can vouch for you here.
Cleon wrote: "Well, most Asians are very concerned about their looks too..." "we shower twice a day here as a habit.)"My sister got to live in Thailand for a year, and she said many Thai people consider the tourists to be kinda stinky, since they usually only have 1 shower per day. :P
Christopher wrote: "Courtesy of the National Health Service I received thousands of pounds worth of orthodentistry as a teen and now have a hollywood smile that I have been assured is so bright it virtually pins guys to the wall!"Judging from your profile pic, yes, it's blinding :D
Emanuela ~plastic duck~ wrote: "Judging from your profile pic, yes, it's blinding :D "Yes, I know. ;-)
(What? Were you expecting modesty? hah! I know my best attribute!)
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Christopher wrote: "Emanuela ~plastic duck~ wrote: "Judging from your profile pic, yes, it's blinding :D "Yes, I know. ;-)
(What? Were you expecting modesty? hah! I know my best attribute!)"
lol, you have all the rights to brag!
Jordan wrote: "I know what you mean Chris. Of course, being an introvert doesn't help, even when the guy isn't perfect either. lol, but it's only worse when the guy is. hehe. If I wasn't, maybe I could have asked..."Hey, I'm a complete introvert myself, I know what it's like.
Not that I'm shy exactly (I think that's one of the last things my friends would choose to describe me as...I actually have a nickname which...well...anyway...moving on...;-)
I think the best description of an introvert I've heard is that an introvert expends energy in social situations and needs a good long while afterwards sitting in a dark room by themselves just to re-charge before they're capable of interacting with another human being again.
An extrovert actually gains energy from being a social situation and at the end of a night can be buzzing around and more full of energy than when they started.
Since I'm generally attracted to extroverts this can sometimes cause...issues...yes...issues...
What an interesting discussion!In m/m books I love it when the MCs are a bit older or not 100% physically fit.
In RL I don't like people - lads & lassies - looking ''artificial'' (probably my definition of what Anne called ''plastic dolls''). I'm for freedom of expression, but I just find them utterly not interesting.
Me: I don't use at all make up nor creams or lotions, but I let a cosmetician do once a month in 90' all the work a normal woman would do every evening and morning ;-). I'm a bit obsessed about deodorants though. For the rest we are as Mother Nature made us.
IMO imperfections are forgotten in the general aura of a person. But if the general aura is negative, all the perfection of this world won't be enough to make this person interesting in your eyes. I still remember meeting a gorgeous fellow, a friend of a client of mine, and his first sentences were some racist crap.
Emanuela ~plastic duck~ wrote: "lol, you have all the rights to brag!."Well if you've got it...flaunt it!
I've got a patented smile that I only use in very special situations...sort of a dirty grin with a raised eyebrow and a look through my eye-lashes that generally does the trick...
Christopher wrote: "Emanuela ~plastic duck~ wrote: "lol, you have all the rights to brag!."Well if you've got it...flaunt it!
I've got a patented smile that I only use in very special situations...sort of a dirty g..."
You know, I think you'd be a great Perry.
Emanuela ~plastic duck~ wrote: "You know, I think you'd be a great Perry. "Thanks...I think, lol.
What's a Perry? Do you mean Perry Mason TV detective from the 80s? The big fat one with white hair? 'Cos I'm not sure that's a compliment really...'-)
Christopher wrote: "Emanuela ~plastic duck~ wrote: "You know, I think you'd be a great Perry. "Thanks...I think, lol.
What's a Perry? Do you mean Perry Mason TV detective from the 80s? The big fat one with white ha..."
I paid you the greatest compliment! Perry from The Ghost Wore Yellow Socks, lol
Emanuela ~plastic duck~ wrote: "I paid you the greatest compliment! Perry from The Ghost Wore Yellow Socks, lol "Oh that Perry!! lol
Thank you!
Although I think I'm a little bit old to play the part in the movie. My twink days are gone now. *sigh* I actually found a grey hair the other day *shudder*
Christopher wrote: "Although I think I'm a little bit old to play the part in the movie. My twink days are gone now. *sigh* I actually found a grey hair the other day *shudder*"Oh, that's something I can brag about. I'm 38, not a single grey hair, yay me!
Emanuela ~plastic duck~ wrote: "Oh, that's something I can brag about. I'm 38, not a single grey hair, yay me!"Grrrrrr....
;-)
I have no gray hair. I better not-- I pay enough every 5 weeks or so to take care of the problem!
Becky wrote: "I have no gray hair. I better not-- I pay enough every 5 weeks or so to take care of the problem!"I do have grey hair, but since I am almost 56 years old, I guess I am allowed :)
I am not that obsessed with my looks (not anymore, age does help with that) but I do want to look good and smell good, making sure my hair is nice (including the grey hair), a little make up on my eyes to avoid that faded look, and nice clothes that fit me (I gain kilos at the same rate I gain years it seems), and jewellery. I love jewellery, not the tiny precious stones kind, but original and fun necklaces and bracelets bought on my travels around the world, and inexpensive chunky things that glitter :)
My hair, what's not gray, has gone this horrible, dishwater color. I had blond highlights for a while, and I liked those. But I recently went red, and I like that much better. This time I had her bleach a strip, and sometime in the next couple of days I'll be dying that green. It's not so much vanity for me as having a little fun. (I'd have her do it, but she doesn't have much in the way of funky colors, and I don't like what she has.)Well, ok, the getting rid of the gray/dishwater mess is vanity, but playing with the color is for fun.
I did get a set of teeth bleaching strips from my dentist once, but I didn't like them. They made my teeth really sensitive and gave my day-glo green poop. I didn't care enough to keep using them.
Becky wrote: "I did get a set of teeth bleaching strips from my dentist once, but I didn't like them. They made my teeth really sensitive and gave my day-glo green poop. I didn't care enough to keep using them. "I've really wanted to bleach my teeth, because I'm pretty self-conscious of them (I drink a lot of tea, so my teeth are far from white :/). But I have pretty weak tooth enamel, so I've been reluctant to try it.
Your experience of your teeth becoming over-sensitive is even more convincing for me not to go that route.
My 82 year old mother had her teeth bleached recently. I keep getting those strips and not managing to stay the course. Which only proves I'm vain AND lazy.
Christopher wrote: "Jordan wrote: "I know what you mean Chris. Of course, being an introvert doesn't help, even when the guy isn't perfect either. lol, but it's only worse when the guy is. hehe. If I wasn't, maybe I c..."Hm. Your definitions of introvert & extrovert ring true.
Maybe I'm not as extroverted as I thought. I'm more like an introvert with thorough extrovert training? I mean, public speaking doesn't even faze me and aren't people supposed to be more afraid of giving a speech than death? I've been doing it too long to be particularly intimidated, I guess, but wow, do I ever need my down time. Being "on" is fun but also exhausting.
Re the...uh...focus on looking good post-30...While I fess up to being obsessive about my weight (until 35, I had metabolism problems that kept my weight too low and now that it's finally slowed down & I don't look like a POW, I worry about gaining too much)...I'm really a total fail as a girl, I think. I color my hair, but only because I got my first gray when I was 13. Up until everybody else my age started getting them, I didn't look at covering up gray as vanity. I just didn't want to look like a freak. Otherwise, as long as I'm reasonably presentable, I truly don't care.I like smelly shower gels & shampoo, though. I also bought a pair of boots I fell in love with a couple of weeks ago. Total adoration and that's never happened before. Does that count? Maybe I'm mellowing.
At 37 I have about 10 times more gray hair than my mother does. She's 64. Dad's 72, and he's got gorgeous white hair. I'd be thrilled to end up with his hair. (Except, you know, a lot more of it.) It's the in between, scraggly, can't-decide-what-it-wants-to-do-with-itself bit that drives me crazy.My illness has changed my hair in some strange ways. The fall after I first got sick a lot of it fell out. Up to that point my hair had always had a lot of body, a bit of wave to it, but the texture was very smooth. All the sudden I looked like Don King in a headband. After a couple of truly disastrous hair events I gave in and went to a good salon. Turns out, when my hair grew back in, it grew in curly. (You can see what I mean in my pictures.) Curly hair has to be managed completely differently from straight hair, or else you get the above mentioned Don King look.
When my hair grew back in, that's when all the gray came in, too. That hair tends to be dry and brittle, and I'm finding that the semi-permanent hair color is very conditioning, and it's softened up the hair and made it less brittle. The blond highlights I was doing before were kind of drying, and didn't really help with the texture at all. I need a lot less conditioner now just to be able to drag a brush through my hair.
After it happened I did a little research and discovered that the change in color/texture is actually pretty common in people who lose their hair due to illness. After chemo some people will end up with straight hair when they had curly before or curly when they had straight. From what I've read, the effects aren't usually permanent. With my body I don't count on anything for long, but it's been about 4 years now, and I'm not seeing any signs of my hair going back to it's old smooth, straight texture. I've gotten used to the curls, and they're sort of fun now that I know what to do with them.
Kari wrote: "Christopher wrote: "Jordan wrote: "I know what you mean Chris. Of course, being an introvert doesn't help, even when the guy isn't perfect either. lol, but it's only worse when the guy is. hehe. If..."I am an extrovert that became an introvert after a mental breakdown. I still like to be with people, but these days it exhausts me more than it used to, and I need my down time very badly. Usually spent with a book or my Kindle, maybe some music and candles burning. Besides, I spend a lot of time inside my own head.
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Q&A with Josh Lanyon
Books mentioned in this topic
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Death in Kashmir (other topics)
The Flame Trees of Thika: Memories of an African Childhood (other topics)
Mistress of the Art of Death (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
M.M. Kaye (other topics)Elspeth Huxley (other topics)
Lauren Willig (other topics)
Charlie Cochet (other topics)
Damon Suede (other topics)
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Ha! It's so interesti..."
Yes! I read a number of mysteries by a gay author and I got really really bored by the fact that not only he and his friends were gay (maybe not so surprising) but also all the crimes were gay-centred. I'm aware that the infamous "ok homo world" doesn't depict reality, but then neither does an all-out gay one.