Q&A with Josh Lanyon discussion
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Writing Questions for Josh
The big exchange here is that you turn semi-legal (or flat-out illegal) not-for-profit into paid work-for-hire, under extremely heavy restrictions. We can bet Amazon finding all sex (especially gay sex) "objectionable".
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People do seem to keep coming back to the sex angle.
:-)
It's only available in the US to start with. The rest of us will be outside looking in.
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http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.z......"
But if you do love writing fan fiction -- and I think it is a legitimate art form -- this is standard royalties and legal protection.
Well, when I say legal protection, I mean you can now write your approved fan fiction without fear of being sued. But there are a lot of caveats in the legalese that I think would throw up flags for anyone who doesn't simply want a career in fan fiction.
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http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.z......"
It's huge. HUGE. And there is a certain creative pleasure and satisfaction in working within the strict confines of someone else's universe. It's like writing haiku or a screen play. There are strict rules and it's kind of exhilarating to work successfully within those rules and create something meaningful.
But for me, the most satisfying work is always going to be my own.
But creativity is a mysterious thing. Not everyone feels that same drive to create from thin air. Some people do need a foundation to base their own work on. And, weirdly, some people who write brilliant fan fiction, write tepid original fiction. So...again, creativity is a mysterious thing.
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..."
True enough. I read through beloved books now and recognize a phrase, an image I thought was my own but apparently was merely absorbed and regurgitated.
But then again, what IS creativity but the end result, the drive, the impetus of all that came before. Is that absorption not crucial to the process?
Josh wrote: "I don't think we've talked about this yet, have we? What do all think about Amazon's plan to publish fan fiction? http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.z......"
Well it's not going to get any of my dollars. I have never liked fan fiction. I don't even like a series continuing after the author dies. I want the original or nothing at all. :)
I think there will be some legal hassles. Some publishing companies and some authors highly discourage fan fiction.
And then there's the licensed books, like Star Trek and Star Wars, the various game books.. They are highly controlled.
Susinok, It's a very specific set of works that can be used, that have made agreements with Amazon for this.
I looked into it briefly, but the "no porn" and "must confirm to World guidelines" means that anything I'd write wouldn't be accepted....cause what I'd probably write is Stefan/Damon or Damon/Alaric and probably wouldn't fit the the Vampire Diaries world guidelines.
I saw some discussion about the rights as well...one camp saying that they were very restrictive (all rights forever, and the company can take anything original from the fanfic and put it into future episodes w/o compensation to the fanfic author) and the other camp saying that's typical for media tie-in works.
The idea intrigued me for about 5 minutes because I do love to play with characters in fanfic, but it's also really fun to make your own characters plus not having to share royalties. ;-)
Another thing is I don't watch much TV so most fanfic is lost on me anyway. Last time I watched anything completely through was Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel.
Fan fiction should be written for fun only. Since the characters, world-building, overall story ideas are the intellectual property of the original author, it should NOT be sold. I know it's fun for some to play with words and ideas, but this content is not theirs to offer for sale and Amazon has no business selling it. The original author has done all of the heavy lifting. It's like stealing hub caps, melting them down and turning them into craft fair jewelry. Sorry, for me, it's stolen property. Think it's going to generate a storm of protection and copyright lawsuits and perhaps this will be settled once and for all.
Carlita wrote: "Fan fiction should be written for fun only. Since the characters, world-building, overall story ideas are the intellectual property of the original author, it should NOT be sold. I know it's fun fo..."While I absolutely do not agree with pulled-to-publish (p2p) fanfiction, this is different. This has been licensed by the owners. The original authors (though I'm not sure if they mean the writers of the books or the TV shows) are getting a cut of the royalties.
It's unfortunate that this is being referred to as "fan fiction" because it really is different than what happened with Fifty Shades, Beautiful Bastard, and lots of other, lesser-known p2p fan fic.
This changes the rules fan fic writers, readers and right holders play by. Maybe not today or tomorrow but some time in the future somebody will recognise that they only make money with a small part of the fan fiction that is written with their characters. And they will try to either earn from the free fan fic floating around or make it disappear. Like Carlite said: "Think it's going to generate a storm of protection and copyright lawsuits and perhaps this will be settled once and for all.", but then Lou said: "Unofficial fanfic will still be out there too." and it won't vanish and the fanfic writers won't stop writing just because... They'll find other channels to distribute their work. ;)I read tons of fan fiction. In the last weeks more then anything else. I'd rather not see it gobbled up by the business approach of a big company...
Aleksandr wrote: We can bet Amazon finding all sex (especially gay sex) "objectionable". "I don't know. Amazon has kind of a bad rep regarding gay content, but I think most of it goes back to that time when someone categorized all of it as porn for a day or two - and that was five years ago or something. You can get everything but the most hard core of porn there now. They recommend gay romance to me when I visit now (though the emailed recs still haven't caught on to that). The rights owners might object to slash, but I doubt Amazon will.
Well, for one thing, playing with already developed characters in an already developed universe is fun for a lot of people.It's also a less intimidating way to get started writing when you already have characters and a universe to start with.
There SO MUCH fan fiction written on various websites, none of which the authors are paid for. Not everyone writes to be paid. Not everyone wants to create their own worlds. There is a lot of fun and creativity to be found in putting your favorite characters in new situations.
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I don't see that anyone should get paid to write fanfic. And putting guidelines on it that prohibit what a lot of people write: slash or AU will mean those writers, unless they write something acceptable, won't be allowed to participate. Sounds like discrimination of a kind to me.
If it were my work being written about, I'd say write the stories you want, but don't get it published. No way.
I grew up writing fanfic. I was writing horrid picture books about Rainbow Brite as a kid YEARS before I ever knew what I was doing or that it had a name. My writing evolved as I grew and slowly got better. My goal was always to publish my own work, but I was always better at fanfic so I stuck with that until I finally found a genre I liked.
I haven't written fanfic in several years now and doubt I could go back to it, even just to read it. But I also watch less tv and for some reason I don't like fanfic based on books, only TV shows.
Btw, I know some of the professionals who get paid by the shows to write books, haven't always seen every episode. They tend to request a few eps they think will help them write the one book and that's it. In my opinion, that's horrible. How can you write about a world and characters when you don't know all there is to know???
On the other hand, you take a show like Dark Angel which was cancelled at the cliffhanger at the end of season two and the books finished up the series which only had one more season to go in order to complete the story arc. I was glad for those books, even if they weren't the best in the world because at least I wasn't left hanging.
Na wrote: "I know how pleasing it can be to write about your favorite characters. Yet, I see fanfictions as being a playground field. One that you entertain in order to polish and perfect your writing skills...."The thing with fanfiction on the internet is that it's instant. Once it's finished (and beta'd if you have someone who'll look it over for you) you can post it on your blog, website or archive for others to read and, hopefully, leave feedback.
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I wouldn't be a writer without having been a fanfiction writer too. But I'm dubious about this Amazon thing. Maybe I'm a traditionalist, but the thought of making money off fanfiction seems wrong. It's against the principles of most fanfic writers, who love and respect the source of their stories. None of my novels since I turned pro are fics with the serial numbers filed off either (I didn't write a lot of slash anyway.) I'm not totally opposed to people doing that, but in some circumstances it bothers me. Like when the book ends up potentially competing directly with its source (as in Twilight and 50 Shades.)
Okay, I had a bunch more to say here, but decided TL:DR and I would be better off saving it for a blog post! :D
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That's exciting. It's the type of story that seems to do really well. And Berkeley is definitely opening up to the m/m market.
It's great to see her succeed like this after all the work she's put in and really makes me happy that there seems to be a bigger market opening for m/m :)
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What you have there is a hobbyist writer -- a writer who "strongly believes in free online fiction" whatever the heck that means, but is apparently supposed to be a political statement -- who is now confronting the reality of becoming a professional writer.
It's a whole different ball game, and it will change her life. Probably for the better, but who knows. It depends on why she writes and what she wants out of her writing. If money and being self-supporting were ever a factor, then yes, she will probably come out of this very happy.
If she was writing simply for creative expression and to connect with readers, then deadlines and edits and promo and all that jazz may not be as fun as her previous writing life.
But on the whole I think she'll be happy and the books will make Penguin a fair bit of cash.
Fantasy seems to be the way to go to break into that market, although it will be interesting to see how the InterMix line does with ZAM's cowboy story.
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But I'm dubious about this Amazon thing. Maybe I'm a traditionalist, but the thought of making money off fanfiction seems wrong..."
I hear what you're saying.
My thought is that every realm of writing and publishing is changing -- changing drastically -- and I guess it's inevitable that fan fiction would be part of that sea change.
Oh! And last night I was reading in PW about a company that's going around trying to buy all these optioned but unproduced scripts and turn them into novellas. They have in-house ghost writers taking these screenplays and "fictionalizing" them, and then selling the resulting story through all the usual channels.
It is a crazy ass time to be a writer. Not only are you competing with every author's backlist, and public domain, and all the self-pubbed insta-writers, you're also competing with fan fiction writers AND screenwriters.
No wonder I had nightmares. :-P
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Josh, please just push away those nightmares. I can't imagine any of your readers passing by your work for these other options. We might check them out, reading a sample and buying what appeals, but I don't believe they are your competition. :-)
Juthi wrote: "Sorry Na, I was referring to this"Thanks for posting this! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMj_P_...
Fascinating ideas and a new way of thinking. My son was telling me that this kind of $$ support is influencing the gaming community too. Programmers raising seed $$ for new games and improvements. I think we will continue to see more of this.
I just bought pay-what-you-like theater tickets for a play in Minneapolis.
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Very interesting. Thank you for posting the link, Juthi! :)
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I think the smart publishers are keeping their ears to the ground. Not least because so many established authors are trying out the DIY route. There's no shortage of aspiring authors, there never has been, but the number of really excellent authors remains as limited as ever. The slush piles are bigger but the golden nuggets remain few and far between. So if there's significant buzz about a work like Captive Prince, yes, I think a smart editor/agent/publisher would check that out.
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:-D :-D :-D
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Yes! What I think people sometimes lose track of is that for most authors, there is an end game. For most authors -- not all, of course -- even if they don't consciously acknowledge it, they hope for more from their writing than simply sharing their stories. They hope to write for a living. They hope, not unreasonably, to do the thing they love most all the time.
Of course! Who wouldn't want to do the thing you love most full-time?
But to do anything full-time requires either independent income or getting paid enough for your work that you can support yourself. Most of us don't have independent income, so we have to be paid for our writing.
So you have three kinds of free fiction. Free fiction from people who hope the free fiction leads to a paying gig, free fiction from people who aren't very good, free fiction from people for whom free fiction is a political cause. And most of that last group will change their moral stance if enough money is offered.
That sounds horrifyingly cynical, doesn't it?
Juthi wrote: "The free m/m online fics that are on Goodreads have some ridiculously high ratings, considering how terrible the writing is for a lot of them. And that's all because fans become more generous when they don't have to pay for it. And I guess it creates a sense of loyalty. I doubt this strategy would work for authors who are already well established though."
Unless that well-established writer published his/her free fic under a different name.
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Interesting. She's right about the terror of asking. Not just because it leaves you vulnerable, but because it leaves you beholden.
Or does it?
She doesn't seem to think it does. But she's essentially talking about a patronage system -- except the patrons are many and the donations are small to medium-sized.
Then again it's a little different for musicians. She can operate a bit like a bard in olden days. She can be paid in food or lodging and return the generosity with a performance.
I don't know. Still listening to her...
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I'm trying my little wattpad experiment. I'm posting an unedited chapter each week of The Haunted Heart. And people can read and comment and vote -- whatever it is that happens there. I'm not even sure what I want out of this experiment (which is possibly not the best way to start an experiment?) but at the end of the story, I'll remove it, add in the erotic bits, edit, and publish as usual.
Juthi wrote: "And it might mean a lot to the m/m genre. She implied that Penguin is taking on more m/m books in the future."Does Penguin disable lending? If so I am not happy about this development overall. Publisher prices are too high to not even let me lend it once.
Josh wrote: "It is a crazy ass time to be a writer. Not only are you competing with every author's backlist, and public domain, and all the self-pubbed insta-writers, you're also competing with fan fiction writers AND screenwriters. "I can't speak for anyone else, but I have always spent a certain amount on books and gotten the rest for free. It used to be the library or borrowing from friends. Now it is online fiction or Kindle borrowing.
Zev wrote: "Josh wrote: "Juthi wrote: "Josh wrote: "What you have there is a hobbyist writer -- a writer who "strongly believes in free online fiction" whatever the heck that means, but is apparently supposed ..."You really think there are realistically no people who write as a hobby? I would think there are a lot of people who like their job fine but want a creative outlet. I don't write, but I beta read and I have no desire to ever be an editor.
Josh wrote: "So you have three kinds of free fiction. Free fiction from people who hope the free fiction leads to a paying gig, free fiction from people who aren't very good, free fiction from people for whom free fiction is a political cause. And most of that last group will change their moral stance if enough money is offered."Free fiction from people for whom free fiction is a political cause?
You cannot mean people in favor of marriage equality, because they wouldn't change their moral stance. Who are you talking about?
Zev wrote: "The only things that we truly do for our own enjoyment are the things no one else knows about."Like masturbation. :-D (Sorry, sorry, I couldn't resist. God, I should just go to bed.)
Zev wrote: "Yes. Unless it is posted on X-Tube!"And charging people if they want to watch the full length clips.
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Does Penguin disable lending? If so I am not happy about this developm..."
I don't know if they're one of the more hardnosed ones or not.
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Of course! Me too. But you NEVER had the options you have now. No one has in the history of publishing.
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Okay, here's what I said:
"For most authors -- not all, of course -- "
So that "not all, of course" would mean...not ALL, of course.
But I have been teaching writing and running writing and reading groups for many a year, and I can tell you first hand that most writers have dreams of being widely read (and praised) and making money.
As I have said again and again and again (until even I am tired of hearing it) there is NO wrong reason to write, but if you can be honest with yourself about what you want from your writing career, you will save yourself a lot of frustration.
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Oh no! I mean the people for whom piracy is an act of political...whatever. Self-rationalization, if you want to dig down. It's okay to steal from artists because this is the information highway and it should be Fereeeeeeeee!!!!!! ;-)
And the fact that my political stance dovetails neatly with my inner cheapskate is beside the point! When I steal porny fiction I'm making a political stand for....Meeeeeeeee.
:-D :-D :-D
Okay, yes, I am being facetious.
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"
Yes exactly! It's sort of a 'pay what you can' thi..."
That's the idea behind it -- there is that always necessary push to find new readers and a new audience. Not because the current readers and audience are not everything an artist could hope for -- I have been so lucky with my readers that I feel guilty sometimes. *A lot of times.* All I am giving in return for all this generosity is...stories.
Amanda believes that is enough.
And I want to believe she is right.
But either way, there is a natural attrition in anyone's fandom, and you have to keep bringing in new readers, new fans. So that's the point of Wattpad.
I think she is dead on about a number of things -- the kindness of strangers. If you watch those true crime shows at all, you become absolutely paranoid about people. But my own personal experience has been that other humans are kind and generous -- and that their instinct is the same as my own. Offer help when needed or requested.
I think *that* is the natural human impulse.
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I say this only because having watched several episodes of DISAPPEARED, I am now convinced the world is after my adorable and so very young and naïve nieces.
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And charging people if they want to watch the full length clips."
I think there are reasonable...um...pay levels. Like if you want edited and erotic content, you'll have to pay for the book. But I will offer the story for free for a limited time.
Will that ultimately impact sales for better or worse? Or at all? I don't know.
Given how slooooowwww my production output is right now, this might not be the time to experiment. Probably NOT the time to experiment. But...sometimes I just get these nutty impulses and away I go. And if it destroys the sales on this first book, next time I'll know better.
Josh wrote: "This is not to say that the unnatural human impulse -- to look for easy prey -- is not also in play. Which is why you have to be cautious, careful -- and try to instill in your young kinfolk that c..."And there is the balancing act when raising kids, to teach them that not everybody out there wishes them well, but at the same time not steal their innocence and make them paranoid.
And the minute they are grown and can take care of themselves, there are little nieces and nephews and grand-dittos to worry about :)
ETA: Sorry for waltzing in and being wildly off topic!
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Like masturbation. :-D (Sorry, sorry, I couldn't resist. God, I should just go to bed.)"
You and your pillow talk.
So this is what I have always said. If you write solely for yourself -- that's the audience you deserve.
Or, more exactly, we all write for ourselves, but we *publish* for others. The act of publishing is transparent. It is the desire to be read. We want interaction, we want engagement.
Now granted there are different levels of "requiring engagement." I don't look at my GR reviews or ratings unless someone points them out to me. Do I need to hear every thoughtless reaction to my work? No. That would not be useful. In fact, it would probably be damaging.
Technology has given writers access to the kind of instant feedback that drives artists insane. Crowd sourced criticism can be good for sales but it can also be disastrous for creativity. We've never had this before. Never had this global widespread and instant response to creative endeavor. It's exciting and terrifying. I personally don't think the creative temperament responds that well to instant critical reporting.
I think it's liable to really fuck up the growth of artists everywhere. There's so much -- too much -- outside influence. That's not how artists evolve. The artistic journey is a largely introspective one.
But this is our new reality and I feel like granddad with his cane yelling at the whippersnappers.
Mod
I don't think you are off topic at all, Anne. If the goats and badgers and ponies and squirrels aren't off topic I don't think that little nieces and nephews and grand-dittos are either... anyway, your comment made me smile widely. :)
ETA: Although I doubt it reassured Josh a lot... ;)
Josh - very much with you. Every now and then I look at my reviews, but my level of sanity and happiness is directly correlated to my exposure to other people's judgment of my work (especially when negative). Some readers I'm friends with and I do follow what they think, but overall, I'm happier and far more productive when I. Step. Away. I'm also re-engaging with reviews and stuff *outside* the genre, so talking about books is good for me and sharpens my thinking, but it's usually non-fiction, or the author's dead. I wouldn't do this in any genre where there's a great deal of "passion" (YA, romance) and reader engagement. Absolutely not in m/m or any related genre--shitstorm's way too big. I have lots of opinions, but have essentially muzzled myself, unless I talk to friends, off the record, and in real life.
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Q&A with Josh Lanyon
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Nothing Amazon does surprises me anymore."
I have to admit that one DID surprise me! ;-D