Q&A with Josh Lanyon discussion
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Writing Questions for Josh
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Jordan
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Apr 22, 2013 05:55AM
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Yes, yes, me too, I agree with Tina and everybody else! ;-)
In other words I really REALLY enjoyed reading your discussion after coming home from work today. Thanks, guys.
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I will admit to being one of those..."
Well, Come Unto These Yellow Sands is not exactly a traditional mystery. It has genre elements but it also has many literary elements. And it ends with a number of questions unresolved in a way that a traditional mystery could not. But the focus of that book is not really the romance or the mystery.
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Ah. literary fiction is ..."
In a literary novel the writing is an end to itself. But in a genre novel, the book must first and foremost conform to the requirements of genre. So if it is a romance novel, the central couple should end up with a HEA or a HFN (unless it is a series, in which case the series must be viewed in its entirety). But if the book is first and foremost a literary novel -- the French Lieutenant's Woman, for example -- there is not requirement that the main couple wind up happy or together or even alive.
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Some readers have strong preferences on this, but when you're making marketing and commercial choices, you have to go by the majority rule. You go by what most people seem to prefer.
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Some of it has to do with marketing. There are authors who resent being classified by genre. But unless the prose is so amazing and the plot so unique...I think it is one's fate to be classified by genre.
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I guess that is the reason why as readers we are confront..."
I don't know. People do look in reflective surfaces and observe themselves, so I think that's justified. The problem is it's usually done so clumsily. But then most writing is clumsy, if I'm going to be brutally honest (and after a weekend of night-time reading, yeah, I am impatient enough to be brutally honest).
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Ouch. But right on the money.
The thing about genre fiction is it is all about craft and discipline. It does not get enough credit for this. It is not all that easy to write excellent genre fiction.
If you read Donald Maass's Writing 21st Century Fiction: High Impact Techniques for Exceptional Storytelling, he's all about "the death of genre", as in, genre writers are now writing better than ever before, and literary writers are using genre tropes/conventions/A PLOT to reach readers. He says that the really big authors/books can do both and there's a readership for it, too. (Which kinda gives me hope as a genre writer who every now and then harbours a literary delusion/ambition...)
Josh wrote: "Come Unto These Yellow Sands is not exactly a traditional mystery. It has genre elements but it also has many literary elements. And it ends with a number of questions unresolved in a way that a traditional mystery could not. But the focus of that book is not really the romance or the mystery."Hm, interesting. I wonder if this is why I found CUTYS so compelling -- my inability to pigeonhole it.
On the other hand, might this same blurring of genre boundaries put readers off?
Josh wrote: "Katharina wrote: "Josh wrote: "I was just thinking about that this week. Most readers want some physical description -- and they want it right off the bat."I guess that is the reason why as reade..."
It's not the mirror thing that annoys me (I can see that a description needs some sort of a device and a mirror seems as good a device as any, even if it's a bit overused), it's that some books - actually quite a few I've read before I've learned to select out the good ones ;D - put so much emphasis on the main character's looks that that's the only thing that is described regarding the character him/herself. And that is done right at the beginning and in unnecessary, excruciating detail.
I definitely can see that readers like to know how the MC roughly looks like, I like to know that myself. But quite a few writers, especially the more amateurish ones, really overdo it. I don't need to know every little detail if it's not crucial for the story line, and I'd rather have a more thorough understanding of what the character is about than what shade his or her eyes are at noon compared to at six in the afternoon. I've also found (at least if you can take reviews here in GR as a measure) that a lot of readers don't have that much trouble with this, so this is probably just another neurosis of an overcritical mind.
ETA: You're very right about the abundance of clumsy writing. If there's enough substance to a story, it doesn't bother me as much, but if the story itself is rather pale, then clumsy writing makes for a pretty dull reading experience. The best thing about groups like these is that I got so many recommendations for truly gifted and wonderful writers that I could spare myself a lot of clumsy writing in the last few weeks :-D
Aleksandr wrote: "I'm always amused at the thought that men and women are emotionally fundamentally different (if you look beyond the socialisation process). I've found that not to be true."I'm always amused by the idea that people can tell a man's writing from a woman's writing. Ha!
K.Z. wrote: "Josh wrote: "Come Unto These Yellow Sands is not exactly a traditional mystery. It has genre elements but it also has many literary elements. And it ends with a number of questions unresolved in a ..."Some readers, perhaps, others like me not so much, but then I read across genres a lot and is more concerned about the writing and the story, not what genre the book belongs to. In fact, I haven't really been that aware of the various genres and their differences before I joined this community. I find the discussions very interesting, and especially fun to follow how writers think about it.
I like genre blending. I like not being able to slot a story neatly into a category.
Sylvia wrote: "Anne wrote: "Hj wrote: "Sylvia wrote: ">delurking>I have never associated literature with unlikable characters and too much seriousness. I've always liked literature a lot in all it's reality, gri..."
I read it. It was well written and even interesting but grim - I felt like it fulfilled my quota of literary fiction for the year.
I read a Margaret Atwood once in a while. But again probably one a year at most.
Lou wrote: "Someone recently pointed out how sparing Jane Austen was with her descriptions. Imo, all you need to do is give a few clues and the reader's imagination will take it from there.I think sometimes ..."
I agree. I think a person's personality drives my inner vision of them rather than the description on the page. I don't think Darcy was ever described other than tall and stern looking. We filled in the rest.
Yes, I enjoy it when authors describe characters sparingly - lets me collaborate as I read.Oh, and I realized I was dating myself by posting the whole white after Labor Day thing. It's something I remember from my childhood in the 60's. I'm surprised it's still relevant in some NY circles. Since I look pretty awful in white, it's never really been an issue for me.
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..."
Such a great point. So many beginning writers mistake physical description and quirks for character.
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..."
It can, yes.
That book did get a few "the mystery was strangely weak."
Which is fine. If someone picked it up primarily for the mystery elements, that's probably fair.
Josh wrote: "But then most writing is clumsy, if I'm going to be brutally honest (and after a weekend of night-time reading, yeah, I am impatient enough to be brutally honest)...."Oh, what did you read this weekend? Was it not enjoyable... was it clumsy? :-)
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Oh, what did yo..."
I started a couple of things but there just wasn't enough to hold me. So now I'm reading
which I need for research. Not the best bedtime reading material, though.
Josh wrote: "Not the best bedtime reading material, though. ..."Because it keeps you awake at night? or puts you to sleep?
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Because it keeps you awake at night? or puts you to sleep?"
Reading about horrific murders before bed is not as soothing as you might think. ;-D
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Hm, interesting. I wonder if this is why I found CUTYS so compelling -- my inability to pigeonhole it."
I felt CUTYS also plays with some key noir elements (view spoiler)
I thought about this comment and added the spoiler tags, since this isn't the CUTYS discussion and I can't assume everyone's read it. Even though I kind of do assume that. )
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I guess that is the reason..."
Hmmm, this made me think back to the Anne Rice vampires, where descriptions of hair and eye color are iconographic, a code to the personalities of the characters, but not always in the most stereotypical ways (thankfully).
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Oh, and I realized I was dating myself by posting the whole white after Labor Day thing. It's something ..."
This is from my childhood as well. It's a fashion-custom I've discussed with my students, asking them to guess why something like this would become a "rule." We decided the best possibility was to trace it back to seasonal changes and light/dark heat absorption or reflection. Taking practicality and turning it to fashion.
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true. I didn't even stop to think about CUTYS and where it fell on the genre line.
Josh wrote: "Reading about horrific murders before bed is not as soothing as you might think. ;-D ..."Especially since the book is missing that sexy chic-lit sensibility! >;)
Anne wrote: "I read across genres a lot and is more concerned about the writing and the story, not what genre the book belongs to. In fact, I haven't really been that aware of the various genres and their differences before I joined this community..."Me too Anne. It's the quality of the writing that determines whether I'll pick up a book or not regardless of genre. I do draw the line at romance though. One Barbara Cartland at about age thirteen was enough to give me a life time aversion.
Caroline wrote: "I do draw the line at romance though. One Barbara Cartland at about age thirteen was enough to give me a life time aversion. ..."??!! But you're here, reading Josh? He writes romance!
Seriously, it isn't fair to write off the whole genre based on Barbara Cartland. She is not representative. It would be like dismissing all poetry because you read this and didn't like it:
Alas! England now mourns for her poet that's gone—
The late and the good Lord Tennyson.
I hope his soul has fled to heaven above,
Where there is everlasting joy and love.
Josh wrote: "Tina Kay wrote: "Josh wrote: "But then most writing is clumsy, if I'm going to be brutally honest (and after a weekend of night-time reading, yeah, I am impatient enough to be brutally honest)...."..."I remember that book! Definitely not bedtime reading.
"Caroline wrote: "I do draw the line at romance though. One Barbara Cartland was enough to give me a life time aversion. ..."Hj wrote: ??!! But you're here, reading Josh? He writes r..."
Yes but Josh writes about 'real' people and with nary a cliché in sight. It was too late by the time I discovered I wasn't reading gay fiction as I'd thought. I wonder if the part of the reason for M/M romance being more thoughtfully written by other people as well as Josh is because they writing about relationships which in the past weren't spoken about, never mind written about? Even today they are not always the same in law are they hence all the campaigns to allow gay marriage. But in the novels same sex relationships have equal worth. Back when I was thirteen there was 'Well of Loneliness' and that was about it.
Maybe I was being a bit unfair about m/f romance but it wasn't just Barbara Cartland. I did borrow about ten other books from the romance section of the local library. To my mother's consternation it has to be said although I did explain (boy was I earnest at that age) it was because I couldn't say they were rubbish (like she did) without having read any of them. She was right though. It was something of a relief to discover Simone de Beauvoir after that. 'The Woman Destroyed' was definitely a palate cleanser.
And how can you not love William MacGonagall? His poem about the Tay Bridge Disaster frequently renders people speechless….
Beautiful Railway Bridge of the Silv’ry Tay!
Alas! I am very sorry to say
That ninety lives have been taken away
On the last Sabbath day of 1879,
Which will be remember’d for a very long time.
The reason I'm not saying anything is because I've been rendered speechless too...
Karen wrote: "It's a fashion-custom I've discussed with my students, asking them to guess why something like this would become a "rule." We decided the best possibility was to trace it back to seasonal changes and light/dark heat absorption or reflection. Taking practicality and turning it to fashion. "I really doubt it was anything so sensible. I conjecture that it had far more to do with drawing class lines. Who can afford two wardrobes in different color palettes? And what a joy to trip up those not from the top drawer. Like all those forks.
My grandmother was big on the wearing white rule (and forks for that matter) and it was definitely about snobbishness. My mom rebelled dramatically, but every now and then she does something hilarious like provide grape scissors.
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Especially since the book is missing that sexy chic-lit sensibility! >;)"
He does mention his snappy sartorial choices! :-D
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Indeed.
And yet I suspect one reason we remember that disaster is because of the equally disastrous poem about it. :-D
Since you had research into Yaoi, I don't think you came across this one. What do you think? :)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrFpto...
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrFpto..."
How is it that a lifetime of watching samurai movies leaves me still completely unable to grasp a word???
This is not to say I don't get the gist of it. :-D
As the description said, it was based from an old manga (which I actually read the localized version of it in Thai). It was actually quite funny. One thing that I must say is, kudo the actor who played the main character in fishnet stockings, a panties on his face, with his undies stretch to his shoulder and nothing else.
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One thing that I must say is, kudo the actor wh..."
Yeah. You have to respect the sheer guts of it.
Does a publisher decide chapter breaks or the writer? Should chapters be a certain length? I remember reading somewhere JCP talking about doing some kind of counting to figure out where her chapters begin and end.
It tends to be the writer, but I've seen editors suggest different breaks to improve structure/tension.
Aleksandr wrote: "It tends to be the writer, but I've seen editors suggest different breaks to improve structure/tension."Do you try to keep chapters around the same length or does that not matter?
It depends. Short chapters create a faster pace--see Dan Brown, his chapters are sometimes only half a page. Many editors like the chapters to be roughly the same size, but those can vary vastly. Mine tend to be anywhere between 1,200 and 5,000 words. It does have a pretty big impact.
Tina Kay wrote: "Thank you, Aleks :-)"Thanks for the information from the writers point of view.
Sometimes it seems that the book actually decides the chapters. In some books it just feels like they should end (some books feel that way and don't end) For me chapters are sometimes a good break or compel me to keep going. It also seems that in long books shorter chapters give the sense that the book isn't dragging along.
From the reader's point of view - I don't consciously notice chapters. I can remember as a child being told that I had to do something once I finished a chapter and genuinely not noticing that I had! I think it's because I'm always rushing through, desperate to find out what's going to happen. It takes something unusual, like quotations at the start of each chapter, for me to notice them. And I don't like quotations at the start of chapters, or anything which breaks the flow of the book.
It may be that I notice the breaks sub-consciously, so that they do their job of pacing the book etc..
I haven't finished my tea yet, but Josh's Amazon, US, page seems off. I was looking to see if the new audible was out and noticed that not all the audios are listed. **head scratch**Audible lists 10 books and Amazon lists 8. http://www.amazon.com/Josh-Lanyon/e/B...
ASW http://www.amazon.com/All-She-Wrote-M... and CUTYS?? http://www.amazon.com/Come-These-Yell...
Hopefully, it will be fixed by the time you see this. =D
GOOD NEWS!Man, O Man used Paperback is being sold for +$900 US!
It's worth a screen shot at the very least. =D
Man, Oh Man, Writing M/M Fiction for Cash & Kinks by Josh Lanyon (Mar 22, 2008)
(10)
Formats Price New Used
Paperback $899.99
There is even one on sale for-
$9,884.50
+ $3.99shipping
There is money to be made in them thar books!
Maybe the kidlings can put some on ebay and make some $$.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listin...
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Q&A with Josh Lanyon
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