Q&A with Josh Lanyon discussion
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Writing Questions for Josh
Karen wrote: "To clarify, by genre fiction I'm including mysteries and paranormal, fantasy, urban fantasy series. These don't always have HEAs, most don't. That's not what bothers me (lack of an HEA). It's some ..."That sounds very unappealing. Luckily it's not a requirement for good literary fiction.
Hj wrote: "But I am interested in what the attraction is of books which do not have a happy ending or pleasant characters - what are the redeeming features? I could only assume that it was the quality of the writing, lovely luscious or clever sparse prose. "Maybe people are intrigued by the dark side of human nature, channel (or nurture?) their own dark side? Bad boys in real life have a big appeal to a lot of people. I'm not very interested in convicted murderers but I understand lots of women do and even act like groupies.
Hopefully the writing is a factor too ;)
Eta: Anne I'm glad with your response, it's a lot less grim :)
Anne wrote: "Hj wrote: "Sylvia wrote: ">delurking>I have never associated literature with unlikable characters and too much seriousness. I've always liked literature a lot in all it's reality, grittiness and s..."
Have you read
That was disturbing but I liked it. I can't recall that it made me feel good though...
Sylvia wrote: "Have you read Perfume: The Story of a Murderer. That was disturbing but I liked it. I can't recall that it made me feel good though... ..."No, I haven't read it. I started it but I found it so disturbing and horrid that I had to stop. No amount of beautiful prose could make up for scary and horrible ideas, for me - I have a very low threshold for scary and horror; I know that, so I avoid it.
What a fascinating discussion.I find these silos less useful these days, especially as there is so much more range. Perhaps it's a lack of my own vocabulary, as I struggle to describe why certain books impact me the way they do.
From my perspective, I think there's a sense that literary fiction is serious in nature; not that there isn't humor involved, but there is something that is being said about the human condition, some profundity, perhaps. A lyrical tone, a use of language that separates it from other works. (Though these days, literary fiction in the hands of many younger writers, is often grittier and less 'beautiful' than what once was.)
There's also a sense of enduring, of permanence - something that will live on far after we're gone, that will continue to impact civilization. Having said that, I have had profound moments from 'genre' fiction - and to use Hammett as an example, I can't imagine a time when his work won't be appreciated. For my science fiction class last summer, it was basically all genre, right? Yet something like LeGuin's Left Hand of Darkness or Bradbury's Martian Chronicles were just works of beauty that elevated my being.
From one of my favorite stories in the Martian Chronicles (though it loses something out of context - thank goodness I found this online and didn't have to retype it!):
“There was a smell of Time in the air tonight. He smiled and turned the fancy in his mind. There was a thought. What did time smell like? Like dust and clocks and people. And if you wondered what Time sounded like it sounded like water running in a dark cave and voices crying and dirt dropping down upon hollow box lids, and rain. And, going further, what did Time look like? Time look like snow dropping silently into a black room or it looked like a silent film in an ancient theater, 100 billion faces falling like those New Year balloons, down and down into nothing. That was how Time smelled and looked and sounded. And tonight-Tomas shoved a hand into the wind outside the truck-tonight you could almost taste time.”
I don't care what you file this under, this paragraph, this story moved me deeply.
(I also think that people often consider literary fiction the vegetables on the dinner plate; good for us, but not as enjoyable as the (genre) dessert that follows. Literary fiction wins awards. Genre fiction sells books.)
Soooo sorry for going on for so long. Back to Horkheimer and Adorno.
mc wrote: "From my perspective, I think there's a sense that literary fiction is serious in nature; not that there isn't humor involved, but there is something that is being said about the human condition, some profundity, perhaps. A lyrical tone, a use of language that separates it from other works. (Though these days, literary fiction in the hands of many younger writers, is often grittier and less 'beautiful' than what once was.)There's also a sense of enduring, of permanence - something that will leave on far after we're gone, that will continue to impact civilization. ..."
I agree with you that these are key elements. Well said!
Aw, Hj, you're too kind, especially given all the typos in there. All the deep stuff was said before I stepped in...you all inspire reflection and discussion.
Hambel wrote: "Dev wrote: "But the instant I stopped being a working scientist, the fiction voice came back, like it had been waiting impatiently for years."I, for one, am glad it did. It would have been a sham..."
You are so incredibly sweet - thank you!
And look how much better John Updike said it:"And the category of "literary fiction" has sprung up recently to torment people like me who just set out to write books, and if anybody wanted to read them, terrific, the more the merrier. But now, no, I'm a genre writer of a sort. I write literary fiction, which is like spy fiction or chick lit. I was hoping to talk to America, like Walt Whitman, you know? Address it and describe it to itself."
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/art...
mc wrote: "Yet something like LeGuin's Left Hand of Darkness or Bradbury's Martian Chronicles were just works of beauty that elevated my being."I remember bawling my eyes out with The Left Hand of Darkness when I was young and innocent, 20 years old or so.
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Sylvia wrote: "Have you read Perfume: The Story of a Murderer. That was disturbing but I liked it. I can't recall that it made me feel good though... ...""Oh man, I totally loved Perfume, I was mesmerized by the words. Such beauty and such harshness. I will say that I couldn't finish the book, I bet I could now on the nook. I also, enjoyed the movie a lot too.
Antonella wrote: "I remember bawling my eyes out with The Left Hand of Darkness when I was young and innocent, 20 years old or so. "Oh, yes. The essay I wrote for that was one of my favorites. She's such an amazing writer. It's not an easy read (at least it wasn't for me), but it was a rewarding one.
Karen, I'm so happy you like that quote, too! I have little post-its all over that book. And some people might dismiss it as 'just sci-fi!'
mc wrote: " I think there's a sense that literary fiction is serious in nature; not that there isn't humor involved, but there is something that is being said about the human condition, some profundity, perhaps. A lyrical tone, a use of language that separates it from other works... There's also a sense of enduring, of permanence - something that will live on far after we're gone, that will continue to impact civilization. "
Yes, this. Thank you for finding the right words.
I think that is what I love about literature too. Finding a novel that expresses a feeling or a state of being that I can't describe well. If that novel conforms to genre rules it doesn't make it less valuable.
Beauty of words can make me find sense in harsh reality. Finding and experiencing beauty is very comforting. It can be like meditation.
mc wrote: "(I also think that people often consider literary fiction the vegetables on the dinner plate; good for us, but not as enjoyable as the (genre) dessert that follows. Literary fiction wins awards. Genre fiction sells books.)":) I happen to like vegetables as well as sweets.
I've been away from the computer for a few days and you guys have been having the best conversation!Oh so many years ago all I read was literary fiction but I find as I get older I'm bored by the self-importance and absorption of many of the stories. I also really hate the kind of non-ending that's become popular lately. And there seems to be a prejudice against hope. I love a well turned phrase and a gorgeous metaphor but I'm tired of the world-weary cynicism that seems to have taken over the MFA world.
Ursula K LeGuin has some great things to say about genre vs literary fiction. Here's just one short piece http://bookviewcafe.com/blog/2011/06/...
Hj wrote: "I suspect that it isn't so much his prose which is not considered literary, but his books as a whole. I think that the reason his books would not be thought of as literary is largely due to the subject matter. At the time they were written they were seen as pulp fiction i.e. written quickly for a mass market, and the quality of the prose was not a factor in their categorisation." I think that is sad.
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Dev, what an excellent link! Thank you so much. That's one to bookmark, for sure.She's so right. Is Shirley Jackson's The Lottery strictly a horror story? I really don't think so.
Dear Sylvia, I was one of those kids who loved her vegetables. And I'm having some tea and cinnamon twists now. Care to join me?
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Oh so many years ago all I read was literary fiction but I find as I get older I'm bored by the..."
Thank you for the Ursula LeGuin link. I love the "good-bye" list in her second article.
By the way, I just have to tell you all, every time you write about the MC this, and MC that, and the cheating MC and the ones you don't like, etc., it always takes me a split-second to realize you don't mean me :-)
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For me, even if the description doesn't match what's in my head, I don't let that stop me from enjoying a book. Some people want detailed descriptions and I've heard others who want virtually nothing so they can picture them however they want. Some authors do barebones descriptions and others, like Andrea Speed, create unique detailed descriptions that are beautiful and amusing to read.
mc wrote: "Soooo sorry for going on for so long. Back to Horkheimer and Adorno."Don't be sorry, I love this conversation! I've just bought
on Audible :)
I'm having a hard time describing my mc's. It's funny, I can see them. I guess I need to find pictures. And I don't want them to be uber hot men, they have issues, they have volumes actually, its just finding the right face.
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Dev wrote: "Ursula K LeGuin has some great things to say about genre vs literary fiction. Here's just one short piece http://bookviewcafe.com/blog/2011/06/... "Thank you, Dev! I filed it for later.
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Dev wrote: "Ursula K LeGuin has some great things to say about genre vs literary fiction. Here's just one short piece http://bookviewcafe.com/blog/2011/06/... "
Very interesting, thank you!
mc wrote: "Dev, what an excellent link! Thank you so much. That's one to bookmark, for sure.She's so right. Is Shirley Jackson's The Lottery strictly a horror story? I really don't think so.
Dear Sylvia,..."
:D
Oh my, mc - think of all the things you've done, solved murders, fallen in love, cheated, dominated, submitted, been a teacher, fireman, policeman, book store owner, diver, cook, prostitute - what a full life you have!
mc wrote: "By the way, I just have to tell you all, every time you write about the MC this, and MC that, and the cheating MC and the ones you don't like, etc., it always takes me a split-second to realize you..."You are a very likable and relateable MC too :D
Joe wrote: "Sylvia wrote: "Have you read Perfume: The Story of a Murderer. That was disturbing but I liked it. I can't recall that it made me feel good though... ...""Oh man, I totally loved Perfume, I was ..."
I never dared to watch the movie after I read the book.
Dev wrote: "Oh my, mc - think of all the things you've done, solved murders, fallen in love, cheated, dominated, submitted, been a teacher, fireman, policeman, book store owner, diver, cook, prostitute - what ...":-D :-D :-D
And sometimes all in the same book!
That's quite comforting, Dev. All the while, I'm sitting on this couch with my tea and biscuit, like some sort of internet Miss Marple. While my alter ego is having relations galore.
Jordan wrote: "I haven't read one hundred years of solitude but if all that drama comes to nothing in the end... What's the point? Of writing and resding it? i guess that "nothing" would be the point, but that's ..."I see what you mean, Jordan, but for me, sometimes those kind of books express my own sense of awe about the enormity of the world, and the evanescent aspect of life. It's one of the reasons that Italo Calvino ranks as one of my favorite writers in the world. Sometimes someone else can put into words the thoughts we’re afraid to utter because they seem so strange and otherworldly. Sometime that’s best expressed in literary fashion, and sometimes Calvin and Hobbes do the trick.
But without question, some fiction can be quite pretentious. That’s one quality that turns me off, in people, in the arts, in politics, wherever. We all bleed red, we all want love, we are all insecure and we are all wondrously imperfect.
Snobbery is both boorish and boring, if you ask me.
Thank you all for a wonderful conversation :) I'm off to bed now.
This is my last annoying comment...From Terrence Rafferty's review of "The Diviner's Tale" by Bradford Morrow:
"In a horror story or a mystery novel, the flow is all toward narrative resolution, and is — or should be — swift and fierce. Literary fiction, by its nature, allows itself to dawdle, to linger on stray beauties even at the risk of losing its way. "
Food for thought.
G'night, Sylvia!
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And LeGuin addresses this beautifully, yes? http://bookviewcafe.com/blog/2011/06/...
Karen wrote: "mc wrote: "In a horror story or a mystery novel, the flow is all toward narrative resolution, and is — or should be — swift and fierce. Literary fiction, by its nature, allows itself to dawdle, to ..."Yes - and I love her line "literature meandering sweetly like a brainless tot in a folktale forest" - I've read books like that!
I've loved every Gabriel Marquez story I've read. One Hundred Years of Solitude is absolutely a wild ride. No One Talks to the Colonel is interesting because there are so few periods. Which means you quite literally can't put the book down.
Dev wrote: "I've loved every Gabriel Marquez story I've read. One Hundred Years of Solitude is absolutely a wild ride. No One Talks to the Colonel is interesting because there are so few periods. Which means y..."Heh. Dev, you are adorable. It's like you consider the full stop an intermission in a play - you can't leave your seat until the usher tells you it's ok to do so!
mc wrote: "Dev wrote: "I've loved every Gabriel Marquez story I've read. One Hundred Years of Solitude is absolutely a wild ride. No One Talks to the Colonel is interesting because there are so few periods. W..."Hey, I'm transgressive - I run red lights when no one's around and if I ever wore white I'd wear it after labor day - but putting a book down mid-sentence? That's tough. How would you know where to pick it up again? I read that book a long time ago and yet I have a very clear physical memory of not being able to get out of the bathtub because I couldn't get to a stopping place.
His language use is breathtaking, though.
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I don't know if I could stand one without periods!
All that being said I feel like I'm being negative Nancy here. I know I've read a few good literary books before that I enjoyed, but they are few and far between. Just not really my cup of tea I guess, and I'm really picky about my tea. Lol.
Sylvia wrote: "Anne wrote: "Hj wrote: "Sylvia wrote: ">delurking>I have never associated literature with unlikable characters and too much seriousness. I've always liked literature a lot in all it's reality, gri..."
I loved it!! I think, I mentioned this book here few weeks or months back because I liked it so much - and, yes, it was very disturbing!! :-D
I think we talked about the screen adaptation too, then. Did you see it? If not - it definitely might be worth a try!!
Dev wrote: "I've been away from the computer for a few days and you guys have been having the best conversation!Oh so many years ago all I read was literary fiction but I find as I get older I'm bored by the..."
Thanks for the link, Dev, this is an excellent blog post!! I definitely agree with Ursula LeGuin on how arbitrary the distinction between genre and literary fiction can be.
Dev wrote: "I've loved every Gabriel Marquez story I've read. One Hundred Years of Solitude is absolutely a wild ride. No One Talks to the Colonel is interesting because there are so few periods. Which means y..."Oh yes, he is a great author and even if his books don't have HEA's necessarily, there is definitely a point to them.
As for being transgressive (I am now answering your next post), you probably have to be an American to understand the remark about wearing white after Labour Day. My son lives in NYC, so I got the reference, he has told me that it is considered a great public blunder in certain circles if you miss here. What I am trying to say is, most people outside the US would be transgressive without meaning to if wearing white after September 1 (isn't that the date?) is considered transgression.
And yes, I understand this is a joke ;)
Edited to amend some bad misspellings :( I blame it on the key-board, it certainly isn't me ....
mc wrote: "This is my last annoying comment...From Terrence Rafferty's review of "The Diviner's Tale" by Bradford Morrow:
"In a horror story or a mystery novel, the flow is all toward narrative resolution,..."
Not annoying, rather sweet I think :)
Lou wrote: "Jordan wrote: "I haven't read one hundred years of solitude but if all that drama comes to nothing in the end... What's the point? Of writing and resding it? i guess that "nothing" would be the poi..."Whereas in non-genre fiction, sometimes you fall off.
Dev wrote: "...I'm bored by the self-importance and absorption of many of the stories. I also really hate the kind of non-ending that's become popular lately. And there seems to be a prejudice against hope. I love a well turned phrase and a gorgeous metaphor but I'm tired of the world-weary cynicism that seems to have taken over the MFA world..."Yes to all of this... my feelings exactly. :-) I love when I wake up the next morning and everything I would have said (and not even as well) is already on the screen. :-)
ETA: There are so many new and interesting posts in this thread, but I don't want to bombard it with yes, yes, me too, i agree...!! So I just want to thank everyone for the interesting 'conversation' you had here yesterday.
Also, thanks to everyone who posted comments on my question about how to approach describing a character's appearance when writing. I need to do a reread of what I wrote to see if I made it too vague.
mc wrote: "By the way, I just have to tell you all, every time you write about the MC this, and MC that, and the cheating MC and the ones you don't like, etc., it always takes me a split-second to realize you...":-D
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Q&A with Josh Lanyon
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I have never associated literature with unlikable characters and too much seriousness. I've always liked literature a lot in all it's reality, grittiness and sometimes ug..."
Definitely the quality of the writing. Last year I read Blood Meridian, or the Evening Redness in the West which is a terrible, violent story about violent and sometimes repulsive men, but the language and the visions painted with words are so lyrical and wonderful, it blew me away.
So the attraction is certainly different from the attraction of a well written romance with a HEA, but still, the attraction is there. I cannot explain it better than that.