Q&A with Josh Lanyon discussion
note: This topic has been closed to new comments.
ARCHIVE (General Topics)
>
Writing Questions for Josh
Mod
I'd like to read some good lesbian fiction or romance. The only lesbian stories I've read were the Rita M..."
Yes, to all of that. Especially how uncomfortable so many otherwise intelligent people are -- readers and writers -- when it comes to genre fiction, romance in particular.
Granted, not all love stories are category romance, but it's kind of fascinating and kind of sad to see writers of romance wriggling around trying to come up with a description of their work that is not romance yet SELLS as well as romance.
Plus we have authors who want to write some dreary depressing story but market it to male male readers somehow so that sales aren't hurt by the fact that most m/m readers aren't going to buy something dreary and depressing if they have a heads up.
I'm all for writing whatever you want to write, but label accordingly and accept the restrictions that come with the labels. Otherwise all you have are irate readers who leave reviews that say things like THIS IS NOT A ROMANCE, etc.
Don't get me started on the topic of lesbian fiction. For all the bitching about how awful m/m is...the f/f stuff I've seen is ten times worse. GHASTLY.
Josh wrote: "Don't get me started on the topic of lesbian fiction. For all the bitching about how awful m/m is...the f/f stuff I've seen is ten times worse. GHASTLY."I'd venture to say it's because it's written by straight men, who don't know romance from a hole in the wall. Teeheehee, but then if he knew about holes in the wall, he'd be writing gay fiction. Sorry.
Josh wrote: "Don't get me started on the topic of lesbian fiction. For all the bitching about how awful m/m is...the f/f stuff I've seen is ten times worse. GHASTLY. ..."Yes, the titles I've seen around do not inspire confidence. There's an interesting title coming out of Riptide soon that I may try. Portrait of a Crossroads By Kelly Rand.
Mod
I'd venture to say it's becau..."
**splutter** :-D
Mod
I write escapist fiction with v..."
I think genre fiction saves lives and sanity. And I'm not kidding.
I have been reading genre fiction since I was knee high to a grasshopper. First it was science fiction and those guys also fought the battles against scorn. Then mystery and now romance and it's sub-sets. I'm not, and never was, embarrassed about it. I can whip out my Bachelors of English if I have to, but for the most part I'm just reading for my own enjoyment and screw anybody that doesn't like my choice of books.
Susinok wrote: "I have been reading genre fiction since I was knee high to a grasshopper. First it was science fiction and those guys also fought the battles against scorn. Then mystery and now romance and it's su..."Well said, Susinok!! I also think it would probably do most of the condescending, overly literary types some good to read a bit of a nice smexy fun story every now and then (if they don't do that secretly to begin with). It can only serve to improve the general attitude. And variety is all the rage anyway :)
Susinok wrote: "Bed checks. I like that. The m/m appellation is useful since gay can mean male or female. I'd like to read some good lesbian fiction or romance. The only lesbian stories I've read were the Rita M..."
For good gay/f/f fantasy, if you like that genre, i'd recommend Jane Fletcher's The Celaeno Series - http://www.janefletcher.co.uk/books.htm, and also her other series (thou i didn't like the last two books she wrote)
Portrait of a Crossroads is gorgeous. :)Talking about Riptide - we had an open lesbian call for a year or so, and only found two books we actually wanted to acquire, because, yes, f/f is still behind in quality to m/m, in my humble opinion.
The f/f books I read for the Rainbow Awards (where I read all the non-gay stuff) were largely quite horrid. Not a single one I'd have finished if I hadn't had to.
Aleksandr wrote: "Portrait of a Crossroads is gorgeous. :)Talking about Riptide - we had an open lesbian call for a year or so, and only found two books we actually wanted to acquire, because, yes, f/f is still be..."
Well if you see any good ones, let us know.
Interest piece in the NY Times about how gender differences are not as black and white as many make them out to be; timely given the discussion in here.As for me, I think our individual differences are distinct enough that gender isn't the primary thing I ever consider...each human being is unique enough on his/her own.
eta: Maybe I should add the link.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/21/opi...
Absolutely. Alexis Hall is an awesome writer, and so's Kelly Rand. :)
Mod
If I felt that way about most modern literary fiction, well, just shoot me now. This is colored by having finished by Julian Barnes
yesterday (my inflight paper book this trip). Mea culpa, I was seduced by a pretty package. The cover is lovely. It folds over to create a facsimile HC dustjacket. The pages are deckled, and there's a Man Booker Prize sticker. It's beautifully designed and just the right size to fit in a travel bag pocket. The first few pages caught me with teasing consideration of the nature of memory and time, then an engaging school-days anecdote. Some 160 pages and several enigmatic, poetic, possibly profound phrases later, and I've just read another story about a self-absorbed man who in RL I'd avoid at all costs. And I'm afraid that was the point.Thanks to Josh and all of you amazing m/m authors!
Karen wrote: "I think genre fiction has saved me, on numerous occasions. When it clicks I feel like I'm part of a community, that my sensibility is shared by others, that I'm not alone.If I felt that way about..."
I'm fascinated by why people do read this kind of book. Is the quality of the writing so good that one can overlook depressing plots about people one would hate to know? What is the attraction?
(This is a serious question about modern literary fiction - which feels different from older classic fiction, to me. All input gratefully received!)
mc wrote: "Interest piece in the NY Times about how gender differences are not as black and white as many make them out to be; timely given the discussion in here."Thank you for the interesting article. And I've learned a new word: ''neurosexism''.
Hj wrote: "Karen wrote: "I think genre fiction has saved me, on numerous occasions. When it clicks I feel like I'm part of a community, that my sensibility is shared by others, that I'm not alone.If I felt ..."
I haven't read anything by Julian Barnes, but I have read other modern fiction which I have enjoyed, lastly The Patrick Melrose Novels which made a great impression, so much I hardly thought about anything else for days. Would I have liked the protagonist in real life? Probably not, he was too troubled. But oh, the writing, oh, the story telling. So, in my opinion, that is what it comes down to, the writing and the story. Whether that takes place in a genre book or in a so called literary book, it really doesn't matter to me. I am sure in literature as in other arts there are people who are too clever, with too much sense of style and with too little heart, but when it all merges, style and craft and hert, and become something new and exciting, nothing is better.
And I must confess, sometimes I struggle with a book, it is hard work going through it, but those often are the ones that stay with me afterwards, with scenes or sentences I revisit in my mind again and again. They are not my comfort reads, I might never read them again, but it seems worth the struggle afterwards. But another confession, I am not up to that struggle every day or week, most of the time I am perfectly satisfied with easier stuff. Not necessarily worse written or without challenges or you know, bad books, just easier accessible. Since I am an adult and can do what I like when it come to reading, I can pick and choose and decide what I enjoy regardless of labels or what is considered correct or incorrect in certain circles. Isn't that wonderful!
And I am not sure where I wanted to go with this rambling either :)
Anne wrote: "Hj wrote: "Karen wrote: "I think genre fiction has saved me, on numerous occasions. When it clicks I feel like I'm part of a community, that my sensibility is shared by others, that I'm not alone...."
Thank you, Anne!
Anne wrote: "Hj wrote: "Karen wrote: "I think genre fiction has saved me, on numerous occasions. When it clicks I feel like I'm part of a community, that my sensibility is shared by others, that I'm not alone...."
Anne, I was going to reply to this, but you provided such a thoughtful response that I stopped myself!
Mod
In going to the RBF last week, and the last two years as well, I was struck by the seriousness of the whole thing, as if the only people there who could smile were the mm presses and the lone bdsm press. The only thing I can think of is that a lot of the people there are stuck in the past when things weren't easy for them. AIDS comes to mind here.
I don't know why but I always have this feeling of still being an outsider too, which just enforces the seriousness going on. Never mind that I look like a butch lesbian and actually don't consider myself belonging to either gender.
The high seriousness in literary writing (outside of lgbtq) kind of makes me want to laugh. You're right, they are writing about characters that aren't lovable at all, with writing that's very depressing. I want to tell these people to lighten up a little every now and then. But hey, people can really only read and write what they like, so what are we gonna do?
mc wrote: "Anne, I was going to reply to this, but you provided such a thoughtful response that I stopped myself! '..."mc - I'd love to hear your thoughts, please!
Jordan wrote: "I feel like with literary fiction writers take themselves too seriously. I can't really explain it better than that. Sure, mm writers take their craft seriously too, but on a different level. If th..."I have wondered whether one key qualification for writing literary fiction is that you take yourself very, very seriously...
Mod
As for me, I think our individual differenc..."
Thanks for the link, MC!
Mod
If I felt that way about..."
One thing you can usually rely on in literary fiction is beautiful writing. Writing where the curated and nurtured flow of words is its own pleasure. Sometimes I'm in the mood for that. Sometimes I even need that as a palate cleanser. In general it is a more cerebral experience, and I think that's what people who read literary fiction are seeking.
In our little genre emotionalism and storytelling trump writing eight times out of ten. This is not to say that readers of m/m fiction can't tell good writing from bad, just that they are not choosing m/m first and foremost for literary or intellectual elements.
Mod
As for me, I think our individual differenc..."
Interesting little article. To me, this seems commonsense. You have only to study history -- and the people around you -- to realize how ridiculously limited and artificial some of these "gender traits" are.
I think this might have been discussed somewhere here once, but I couldn't find it... How detailed do you think the description of the main character should be? With the story I'm writing now I barely touch on the mc's appearance. I think I mention hair and eye color... maybe height... but I find myself wondering if I should find a way to describe him more.
>delurking>I have never associated literature with unlikable characters and too much seriousness. I've always liked literature a lot in all it's reality, grittiness and sometimes ugliness. It deals with serious stuff but often in a non-serious manner. Depending on the issues I'm having at the time of reading, it can be a great comfort to see it put into words by someone else in a way I could never do. It feels real to me. Some writers can deal with serious matters in a very funny or absurd way (as in other genres) and I like that a lot.
To be honest, it sometimes gives me more comfort then reading romance where every MC gets his happy ever after. I see romance as an escape of reality and I like it a lot, but it can make me feel down sometimes because it makes real life look bleak.
I only started reading romance a couple of years ago and before that I used to read a lot of other fiction. I'm still not used to all the angst and hea's in romance. I don't always understand the rules that appear to exist in romance (or maybe in other genre's too). I like crossovers between genres and I enjoy when lines get crossed :) I noticed that some readers get angry in their reviews, especially when the MC cheats, LOL!
Lou wrote: "Josh wrote: "One thing you can usually rely on in literary fiction is beautiful writing. "In my eyes Raymond Chandler's prose beats that of scores of literary fiction writers."
What makes that Raymond Chandler's prose isn't considered literary?
Sylvia wrote: ">:) I noticed that some readers get angry in their reviews, especially when the MC cheats, LOL! l..."I will admit to being one of those people who doesn't like when the MC cheats... although I would never leave an angry review about it, because that's just my personal preference and not necessarily a story or writing flaw.
If I'm reading a romance book then I don't want cheating, because I consider that such a terrible betrayal, and it doesn't offer the type of angst that makes me feel good when it's overcome. I don't need a hea but I like at least a hfn... Unless it's a book in a series that doesn't have one of those endings but will eventually lead to it ( like the AE series). I want my romance books to be... well, romantic. :-)
Lou wrote: "He wrote mysteries--genre fiction. He gets critical recognition now, but that hasn't always been the case.Growing up I never differentiated between reading genre fiction an literary fiction. A bo..."
Exactly. Can genre fiction never be literary?
Tina Kay wrote: "Sylvia wrote: ">:) I noticed that some readers get angry in their reviews, especially when the MC cheats, LOL! l..."I will admit to being one of those people who doesn't like when the MC cheats....."
When I read the AE series I wasn't aware I was reading romance. Is it romance?
I think cheating is a fact of life and I don't mind reading about it. I can understand if you start reading a book with the assumption it's a romance that you don't want to read about cheating.
Mod
I have never associated literature with unlikable characters and too much seriousness. I've always liked literature a lot in all it's reality, grittiness and sometimes ugliness. It deal..."
Well, it's ALL literature. ;-) You mean literary fiction versus popular fiction?
Mod
In my eyes Raymond Chandler's prose beats that of scores of literary fiction writers."
What ..."
Chandler IS considered to have transcended genre.
Mod
I was just thinking about that this week. Most readers want some physical description -- and they want it right off the bat.
This is why covers with faces trump torsos for most readers. And why cover artists ask for hair and eye color.
At the same time -- and I think this is fascinating -- the very name or role a character plays in a story will spark a mental description of what that character looks like for a number of readers. So if the official description does not match the description in the reader's head, there can be a disconnect.
But that can't be helped. Describe the character as quickly and non-intrusively as possible.
Josh wrote: "Sylvia wrote: "Lou wrote: "Josh wrote: "One thing you can usually rely on in literary fiction is beautiful writing. "Chandler IS considered to have transcended genre"
:) Pushing it up on my read list
Mod
Growing up I never differentiated between reading genre fiction an literary f..."
Absolutely it can be literary. A well-written book scores highly on the writing itself as well as satisfying the requirements of genre.
But when we refer to literary fiction we generally mean a novel that is mostly about style and technique and does not fall cleanly into any particular genre. So while there might be a crime, the crime may never be resolved -- whereas in a mystery novel, the crime must be resolved or the book has failed to meet the requirements of genre.
Mod
I will admit to being one of those people who doesn't like whe..."
The AE books are primarily mysteries. The latter two books are as much romance as mystery, though. I hope the books have literary elements, I believe they are technically well-written as well as (I hope) emotionally satisfying. I know they meet the requirements of both genres -- romance and mystery (because that's like following a map).
Josh wrote: "Sylvia wrote: ">delurking>I have never associated literature with unlikable characters and too much seriousness. I've always liked literature a lot in all it's reality, grittiness and sometimes ug..."
Josh wrote: "Sylvia wrote: ">delurking>
I have never associated literature with unlikable characters and too much seriousness.
Well, it's ALL literature. ;-) You mean literary fiction versus popular fiction? "
I'm not sure what I mean. I was reacting to a description of literature where it is too serious and has unlikable characters. I guess I don't understand the definition of literature.
For instance I don't understand why literary fiction has to be different from popular fiction. Are there rules that make it mutual exclusive?
Josh wrote: "Tina Kay wrote: "I think this might have been discussed somewhere here once, but I couldn't find it... How detailed do you think the description of the main character should be? With the story I'm ..."Thank you, Josh.
I usually don't like covers with faces because I don't want it interfering with how I picture the character. Once in a while there will be a gem - like Fair Game - where I like the cover and like imagining the mc looks the way they're depicted.
Lou wrote: "The genre boundaries are not drawn based on quality of prose but structural requirements. If at the beginning of a mystery the protagonist stumbles upon a murder victim, it's expected that by the e..."I guess I'm trying to understand what structural requirements define literary fiction. I wonder if that definition is universal or specific for English/American literary fiction.
Josh wrote: "Sylvia wrote: "Tina Kay wrote: "Sylvia wrote: ">:) I noticed that some readers get angry in their reviews, especially when the MC cheats, LOL! l..."I will admit to being one of those people who d..."
I guess AE wasn't the best example for that. :-) I was just thinking of books I was okay with not having a hea or hfn ending because I knew the story would continue in another book and probably end happy eventually.
Hj wrote: "mc wrote: "Anne, I was going to reply to this, but you provided such a thoughtful response that I stopped myself! '..."mc - I'd love to hear your thoughts, please!"
So do I
Josh wrote: "But when we refer to literary fiction we generally mean a novel that is mostly about style and technique and does not fall cleanly into any particular genre."Ah. literary fiction is a well written novel that doesn't follow the rules of specific fiction. I kind of like that. As long as it's not only style and technique. Interesting, relateable characters and a good plot are big plusses :)
Josh wrote: "The AE books are primarily mysteries. The latter two books are as much romance as mystery, though. I hope the books have literary elements, I believe they are technically well-written as well as (I hope) emotionally satisfying. I know they meet the requirements of both genres -- romance and mystery (because that's like following a map). "I now understand better why I love those books.
Josh wrote: "I was just thinking about that this week. Most readers want some physical description -- and they want it right off the bat."I guess that is the reason why as readers we are confronted with literary pearls that, within the first 5 pages, have the main character either look into a mirror and then describe his/her countenance in minute detail down to the very last not-visible skin pores (main characters don't have skin pores after all, because that would be unattractive); or, as another strategy, the MC starts to philosophically contemplate his/her own looks ("Many people seem to like my blue-grey-green eyes that are sprinkled with flecks of gold, but really, I think they're just ordinary. And sure I have a fine, straight nose with the cutest splatter of freckles and lovely cheekbones, and of course this thick, nobody-believes-it's-natural-but-it-really-is red luscious hair. But I'm just the regular wallflower really - as a matter of fact, if I didn't have this cute little bubble butt I'd have no redeeming feature whatsoever!").
Or a friend comes in and underhandedly compliments the MC on his/her looks again in explicit detail. Or a combination of the above.
And sometimes, if you're lucky, then over the next 200 pages you will actually get some character description in addition to the frequent clothes and hair and general looks updates. But that is an optional feature, not mandatory.
... maybe I'm a bit cynical here, but I've read so many books using devices like these, it's making me cringe. The mirror one isn't even so bad usually, if it's done well - but often enough it's not.
Lou wrote: "Sylvia wrote: "I guess I'm trying to understand what structural requirements define literary fiction. I wonder if that definition is universal or specific for English/American literary fiction. "..."
Thank you for explaining, it's all very interesting. I think I've read very serious and also very entertaining fiction but I have to reconsider if it was literary fiction according to these specification.
I like unpredictable outcomes and I love well written books but I have to feel it too.
Tina Kay wrote: "Josh wrote: "Sylvia wrote: "Tina Kay wrote: "Sylvia wrote: ">:) I noticed that some readers get angry in their reviews, especially when the MC cheats, LOL! l..."I will admit to being one of those..."
:)
Mod
Sylvia wrote: ">delurking>I have never associated literature with unlikable characters and too much seriousness. I've always liked literature a lot in all it's reality, grittiness and sometimes ugliness. It deal..."
Thank you, Sylvia. It is certainly true that not all literary fiction has unlikeable characters; but from reading the summaries and reviews it does seem that a lot of it does. What I don't quite understand is why a book becomes popular and widely read when it is clear that the characters are unlikeable and that nothing very interesting or pleasant happens.
I'm not saying that all books have to have a happy ending - by no means! But I am interested in what the attraction is of books which do not have a happy ending or pleasant characters - what are the redeeming features? I could only assume that it was the quality of the writing, lovely luscious or clever sparse prose.
Sylvia wrote: "Lou wrote: "In my eyes Raymond Chandler's prose beats that of scores of literary fiction writers."What makes that Raymond Chandler's prose isn't considered literary? ..."
I shall be interested to see what other people say, but I suspect that it isn't so much his prose which is not considered literary, but his books as a whole. I think that the reason his books would not be thought of as literary is largely due to the subject matter. At the time they were written they were seen as pulp fiction i.e. written quickly for a mass market, and the quality of the prose was not a factor in their categorisation.
This topic has been frozen by the moderator. No new comments can be posted.
Q&A with Josh Lanyon
Books mentioned in this topic
Alphabears: An ABC Book (other topics)Rag and Bone (other topics)
As Meat Loves Salt (other topics)
The Well of Loneliness (other topics)
The Selfish Gene (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Julie Smith (other topics)Bernard Cornwell (other topics)
Robin McKinley (other topics)
Tove Jansson (other topics)
Astrid Lindgren (other topics)
More...
I'd like to read some good lesbian fiction or romance. The only lesbian stories I've read were the Rita Mae Brown books, and I loved every one of them. They would fall more under lesbian fiction than f/f romance, though. They certainly were NOT erotica.
This whole demanding to know the gender identity of the author is, I think, a result of social media and the ease of getting information on people. Authors could be anybody they liked in the world before the internet, and some of those pseudonyms started back before it became so prevalent. Then it became habit.
However, women writing under male names is a centuries old concept. It's the simple fact that they were and are treated as lesser beings in the publishing world. Even Nora Roberts has to defend her romance novels from time to time from the sneering literary crowd.