Q&A with Josh Lanyon discussion
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Writing Questions for Josh
mc wrote: "And I don't mean to hijack this thread, as it seems I am wont to do! Carry on, carry on!! ..."
You're not hijacking at all. And you've got us on topic and everything! Don't worry - before you know it we'll be talking about gelato or squirrels again. :-D
Joe wrote: "Oh, then it's a good thing I'm a red head. ;-)"Yeah, you fit right in! :-D
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:-) Most definitely.
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Fiction, I love. No problems there. :-) I would use fiction as an escape route from the usual essays. When you get tired of one thing, dive into something different. I always like to think I live vicariously through my characters, so that helps too.
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Marshal Thornton was the one who stuck up for MM, since he's published by an MM pub, though I forget which one at the moment. His comment was that most of the MM writers started out as allies, with friends and family members who were possibly gay.
So, it was interesting on one hand, and on the other, I'd already heard all that they had to say on the topic. But this time it was in person. I kept my mouth shut from the audience on that one. lol.
So, I am a ,man,, would I therefire write gay mystery, not m/m mystery.
Jordan wrote: "I went to the Rainbow Book Fair on Saturday and sat in on a panel of gay mystery writers, who ended up debating the merits of MM. The guy asking all the questions was an older gentleman who seemed ..."You did say that they were mystery writers? Then unless they were also policemen, surely they were also writing "about that which [they] didn't know", and by that logic probably also not getting "the facts right".
Why is it that some people accept that authors can write very well about things they have not experienced first-hand, except m/m? - haven't they noticed that in m/f romances the author can't possibly have experienced what half of the couple feels either, and yet they don't expect the book to say nothing about that person's thoughts and feelings.
Joe wrote: "So, I am a ,man,, would I therefire write gay mystery, not m/m mystery."Not in my interpretation of the term m/m. It's the nature of what is written that matters, rather than the gender of the author; the key element is that it is romance (with all that term implies).
If your mystery was solely a mystery with a gay main character then yes, it probably would be termed "gay fiction". But if it was a mystery romance (like the ones Josh writes), then it would be m/m. At least, that's how I understand the terminology.
Hj wrote: "Joe wrote: "So, I am a ,man,, would I therefire write gay mystery, not m/m mystery."Not in my interpretation of the term m/m. It's the nature of what is written that matters, rather than the gen..."
That is how I understand the difference too, Hj.
On the other hand, as a reader I certainly enjoy the privilege of enjoying what I enjoy without bothering to categorize or name it.
And all writing (fiction that is) is the author using his or her fantasy to tell a story so the reader will enjoy it. There should be no boundaries to that in my opinion, so a straight, African male accountant can and must be allowed to write a mystery about a lesbian Chinese cop if he was so inclined. Whether that would be a good story to read, would depend on his craft and his ability to write a good and interesting story (and probably research..), not his gender, race or sexual orientation, his day job or the weather outside for that matter.
I am sure that authors and publishers need genre dinstinctions for marketing purposes, but for reading purposes, it isn't important, at least not to me. But then, I am an omnivore when it comes to reading, I read anything as long as it is a good story well told. Easy, me. ;)
ETA: Case in point: Alexander McCall Smith is a Scottish gentleman writing about a female investigator in Botswana. Does anybody know if he has ever been critized for that? He has spent years in Botswana, but even so ....
Jordan wrote: "What I can say about essay writing is that I hate it. In college and grad school I just always felt as if I didn't know what I was doing, or how to go about doing it. Thus my grades were low. Oh we..."I am the total opposite. I wasn't that good at it in college but now writing an essay is really easy for me relative to fiction.
Fiction seems like I have the stare at the screen until drops of blood form on the forehead problem.
Susinok wrote: "Jordan wrote: "What I can say about essay writing is that I hate it. In college and grad school I just always felt as if I didn't know what I was doing, or how to go about doing it. Thus my grades ..."Isn't that the definition of writing fiction, sit before the screen (typewriter) and bleed?
Susinok wrote: "I wasn't that good at it in college but now writing an essay is really easy for me relative to fiction."Sometimes I have the feeling that for far too many people writing scientific papers isn't all that different from writing fiction, only with far worse prose. ... alright, so it's not that many people, but it's still frustrating to no end.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure the scientific writing process has totally destroyed my ability to write fiction. I used to be pretty good at writing stories (obviously I mean in a total amateurish way, but my teachers were always pretty enthusiastic). Now, I've been so indoctrinated with writing only the most simple sentences, always writing right to the point with as few words as possible, repeating your message over and over to get your point across, etc. that I've completely lost my ability to introduce any arc of suspense into my stories. (Well I think so, I haven't had the time and the mind to try in a long long time.) It's a shame really. And it makes for very effective, but also very dull reading, I can tell you.
Katharina wrote: "Susinok wrote: "I wasn't that good at it in college but now writing an essay is really easy for me relative to fiction."Sometimes I have the feeling that for far too many people writing scientifi..."
I was a fiction writer first, then a writer of scientific papers and now again a fiction writer. I had the hardest time with the first transition - it was brutal to move from focusing on how my language flowed to "just the facts ma'am". And while I was writing science, I absolutely could not write fiction or poetry, just couldn't find my way in. But the instant I stopped being a working scientist, the fiction voice came back, like it had been waiting impatiently for years.
Essays do not always equate with scientific. I couldn't write a science paper. I am talking more personal or hobby essay, -- gardening, travel, topics of interest, things like that. I like reading those types of essays as well. Josh's guest posts on writing and various topics would fall under essay, I think.
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Yup, mystery writers for the most part, of the non-romantic variety. Older gay men, and one young-ish lesbian who didn't have much to say on the issue.
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Not in my interpretation of the term m/m. It's the nature of what is written that matters, rather t..."
I'm with you Anne. I'll read anything so long as it's good. And what matters most is craft and a bit of research.
lol, I keep trying to write a story about a librarian, but even though I am one, when it comes out on paper... BORING. Nobody would want to read about that. At least, not what I've come up with so far. And maybe that's because I know all the boring details that have to be done every day. I don't know.
My next book will feature a librarian, but it's not the focus of the story, we're actually only in the library once or twice, as things are written now, so we'll see how that all plays out later on.
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There was a famous author, forget who off hand, who said that what writers did was sit before the typewriter and bleed. So, yeah. That's it, exactly.
I guess I have an addiction to bleeding then? Sounds horrible. :-P
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Ah, those aren't too bad. Still not my cup of tea really, but much easier than what I was writing in college, the pick a point and support it variety or the analyze this novel type. Gosh darn it, as one person said somewhere, the curtains are blue just because the author liked the damn color! It has no significant meaning! LOL. Or he/she thought the MC would want blue curtains.
Jordan wrote: "Anne wrote: "Susinok wrote: "Jordan wrote: "What I can say about essay writing is that I hate it. In college and grad school I just always felt as if I didn't know what I was doing, or how to go ab..."Was it perhaps Hemingway?
Dev wrote: "Katharina wrote: "Susinok wrote: "I wasn't that good at it in college but now writing an essay is really easy for me relative to fiction."Sometimes I have the feeling that for far too many people..."
That's really good to know!! So not all hope is lost ;-D
I'll probably stick with science for a few years yet, but if ever make it out of that still living I'll try to write fiction again, I think, just for myself. That's really something to look forward to! :-D
Susinok wrote: "Essays do not always equate with scientific. I couldn't write a science paper. I am talking more personal or hobby essay, -- gardening, travel, topics of interest, things like that. I like reading ..."Yeah, I thought so, it just reminded me that quite a few people supposedly writing non-fiction (whatever it may be) make so many assumptions and sometimes so many omissions in their reports that what comes out seems to be more fiction than actual fact. I do see this in science way more than is good for that whole field of work.
Dev wrote: "But the instant I stopped being a working scientist, the fiction voice came back, like it had been waiting impatiently for years."I, for one, am glad it did. It would have been a shame if that voice had stayed quiet for ever.
LOL!Jake's always telling Adrien how unrealistic his books are in reference to police procedure and solving mysteries, so I'm guessing he at least sees Adrien's WIPs. Or maybe Adrien just talks plot points with him?
Jordan wrote: "There was a famous author, forget who off hand, who said that what writers did was sit before the typewriter and bleed."And then our water breaks, and out comes our baby, and we valiantly eat the afterbirth. (Excuse me, but I'd better go now. Never thought one of my own metaphors would nauseate me. ;-))
K.Z. wrote: "Jordan wrote: "There was a famous author, forget who off hand, who said that what writers did was sit before the typewriter and bleed."And then our water breaks, and out comes our baby, and we va..."
That's what I call dedication to your art!:)
I'm always amused at the thought that men and women are emotionally fundamentally different (if you look beyond the socialisation process). I've found that not to be true.
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I think it would be cute if Jake was a fan and read Adrien's books, especially WIPs.
Doesn't mean I'd let someone that close to me read my work. Lol.
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Seriously, I sometimes think when people discuss men vs women, they are talking about two different species.
Aleksandr wrote: "Seriously, I sometimes think when people discuss men vs women, they are talking about two different species."And I REALLY don't like my entire psyche reduced to a list on Facebook simply because I happen to have tits!
Some men have tits, too. (The "moob" phenomenon, or trans people. :) )
Joe wrote: "So, I'm reading Writing the Gay Mystery... great article by the way. I'm a little confused... I guess I just assumed that m/m meant it was a gay novel, but reading the article, m/m is considered..."
Hi Joe, A thread from M/M Romances Group came up on my feed and I thought you might find it interesting. An lot of different voices are present: men, women, writers, readers and fanfic/slash historians. Enjoy!
"M/M" vs "Gay"?
Aleksandr wrote: "Some men have tits, too. (The "moob" phenomenon, or trans people. :) )"Exactly!
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Reggie wrote: "Joe wrote: "So, I'm reading Writing the Gay Mystery... great article by the way. I'm a little confused... I guess I just assumed that m/m meant it was a gay novel, but reading the article, m/m i..."
Thanks Reggie, that was informative. Though, when it became a math problem I got worried.
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No. The difference really has nothing to do with who is writing (although I guess some folks would like to believe that it does). It has to do with sensibility, tone, focus. And even then, it's not *that* standardized.
Andrew Grey writes m/m. TJ Klune writes m/m romance. Elliott Mackle writes gay mystery and some gay romance. Erastes writes mostly gay romance. Marshall Thornton crosses back and forth. As do I. Are you confused yet?
The first AE books are not m/m. They are traditional gay mystery. With Death of a Pirate King, the focus on the story becomes as much about Adrien's relationship with Jake as solving the mystery. For some of my traditional mystery readers, that was a let down.
One easy tell is if characters are having sex for the sake of sex with other characters who are not going to be an SO, then the book is not an m/m romance. Sexual adventuring is a standard feature of gay fiction, however.
One of the real difficulties right now within the genre is a number of gay writers are trying to cash in on the m/m boom, but they struggle with the concept of writing romance. We see a lot of haggling over meta: what is m/m, who should write it, etc. I guess it's easier to debate these things rather than hunker down and learn the restrictions and requirements of a genre (romance) that so many instinctively deplore -- even while wanting to market to.
It's a stimulating debate, but essentially pointless. It reminds me of feminists debating the merits of het romance.
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Explicit sex and focus on romance are still frowned on in the mystery genre proper. It's okay in Romantic Suspense, but RS has long been the wild child in the mystery genre.
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Haha I loved your description! This conversation made me wonder though, whether the books that Adrien writ..."
Oh Adrien would not put sex in his books! :-D
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Jake's always telling Adrien how unrealistic his books are in reference to police procedure and solving mysteries,"
Yeah true! Or maybe Jake is secretly a big fan and has a ..."
I bet Jake will be one of the last people on the planet to buy a kindle. I see him as paperback guy.
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I think I need some encouragement? Good advice? A kick in the butt?
A couple of thoughts/questions based on what's been discus..."
I want to come back and answer this! I wish there was a way to flag messages. I started to flag this and then I saw that it was talking about inappropriate messages and spam! I hope I stopped before I got you in trouble, MC! :-D
Josh wrote: " I wish there was a way to flag messages."As a workaround you could click on the time stamp of the post you want to remember and then add a bookmark in your browser. When you open the bookmark later it will jump to the exact post. :)
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As a workaround you could click on the time stamp of the post you want to remember and then add a bookmark in your browser. When you open th..."
Okay! I'm giving that a test run.
Calathea wrote: "Josh wrote: " I wish there was a way to flag messages."As a workaround you could click on the time stamp of the post you want to remember and then add a bookmark in your browser. When you open th..."
I use that for keeping track of any challenge I'm in. Though m/m bingo has turned me off of challenges for a long time to come.
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No one else seemed to have such a problem with it and I just don't see why people find it such a big deal. That's not what's important when discussing a genre!
I am not familiar with a time in History that authentication of authorship was a cultural norm for storytelling. Maybe some of our history buffs know of such a time?
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There has never been such a time. This is a completely new and unimpressive development. I don't know whether it has to do with technology or developments in publishing/entertainment. Publishing is very much in love with the idea of "platform," that authors *are* what they write about. So a real live cop writing about crime has a marketing edge. Publishing is all about marketing now, so that makes sense. It's less important that the real live cop can't write than that he can be pitched as the "real" thing. And if he *can* really write better than all the non-ex cops? Whoohoo! Instant marketing gold!
And I suppose there is some logic behind this marketing idea. Our society in general seems to love this idea of reality TV. So I can see why there would be this idea that readers would feel the same, that they would prefer a "gay" romance written by a real gay man over a romance written by a straight woman.
But reading and readers aren't necessarily the same animal as fans of reality TV, and even if they are, they may look for something different in their books than their TV viewing.
Writing, storytelling...these are complex arts. Some people can write believably about women, some cannot. But their ability to write believably is not affected by possessing a vagina.
Much of what we're experiencing right now in this genre has to do with the fact that -- and this is going to sound harsh and a little cynical, but it's the truth, as anyone who has been publishing gay fiction as long as I have can testify to -- gay fiction proper is not experiencing the boom that male male romance is. In fact, it was in a huge slump even five years ago. The bump it *is* experiencing is largely overflow from male male romance.
So if you're a gay man writing for a traditional gay press and they publish your horror novel and you sell *maybe* 1000 print copies of your book and maybe 1000 ebooks, and you look across the aisle and see a woman writing a male male horror novel (or better yet, a paranormal shape shifter with elves) for Ellora's Cave and she sells 5000 ebooks and gets her print books in B&N and makes about ten times what you did...yes, there is going to be some frustration.
And because people never want to look at the choices they're making in their writing, let alone their overall ability, it's easier to believe that that woman writing her paranormal book is getting so many readers and sales because people believe she's actually male. And if they knew the truth, they'd never be buying her books in such droves.
Uh huh.
All I can say is I have a very large male readership and I hear all the time how much they love JCP and Abi Roux and Harper and a slew of other women authors.
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.."
It's not a big deal. It's a few big mouths.
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No o..."
It's one reason I like the male male appellation, though. I mean, yes, on one hand it irritates me. Of course male male romance is gay fiction. All male male fiction is gay fiction.
But not all gay fiction is male male romance -- and this is an important and valid point.
So if these folks want to make a stand about who is allowed to write certain stories, then fine. Male male evolved from fan fiction. It has always been written by (primarily) women, straight and gay. If anyone is a guest here, is behooved to be on his best party behavior, it's the gay male who migrated from traditional gay fiction. The guy who's still trying to figure out why male male romance sells so much better to male and female readers than his own stuff.
Me, I'm tired of the bed checks and the haggling over who is permitted to write what.
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Q&A with Josh Lanyon
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Tina, I have no idea how to describe the fiction I used to write. Some magical realism, a mix of writing styles. Very, very short. I don't think anything I wrote was over 2500 words.
And I don't mean to hijack this thread, as it seems I am wont to do! Carry on, carry on!!