Q&A with Josh Lanyon discussion
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Writing Questions for Josh
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And for me, that's mostly a turn-off. In real life anyway. In reading, I'll deal with it, but it's not my favorite. Though I am learning to mix it up with the characters I write. There is one in my current WIP, actually, make that two, with significant amounts of chest hair. otherwise, I just can't stand body hair.
I think it's mostly due to me imagining myself with armpit hair and hair all over and ick, I don't want to imagine it on me, so I project that onto everyone else. lol.
But guys with long hair, like, really, really long, I've recently found a strong liking for that.
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The way these social sites work..."
OK, that's true. I hadn't thought of that. I'm so not wanting to keep tabs on people I don't like, so it didn't occur to me others would.
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Humour.
No underestimating of me as a reader, in other words, I can think for my..."
Me too! I was thinking of reading the latest book soon. but we'll see.
Jordan wrote: "I've never understood the gay-for-you thing."Same here. That is one trope I do . . . not . . . get. What bothers me about it is that it's the flip side of "conversion therapy" -- yet equally nonsensical. Sexual orientation doesn't come with an on/off switch.
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Same here. That is one trope I do . . . not . . . get. What bothers me about it is that it's the flip side of "conversion therapy" -- y..."
Exactly.
Jordan wrote: "OK, that's true. I hadn't thought of that. I'm so not wanting to keep tabs on people I don't like, so it didn't occur to me others would. ..."See, I'm such an unsociable cuss, I don't even keep tabs on people I DO like! :) What I mean is I have friends turned off in my Goodreads thread. I only see authors I'm following. It shows blog posts, books they are reading, and status updates. It's a good way to see what books are underway by the authors I follow.
I'm not interested in every comment in every news thread every friend is making. I turned that chatter off long ago.
K.Z. wrote: "Same here. That is one trope I do . . . not . . . get. What bothers me about it is that it's the flip side of "conversion therapy" -- yet equally nonsensical. Sexual orientation doesn't come with an on/off switch. ..."But orientation isn't binary, either. It's not always an either/or question or a flip side. There are all manner of orientations. There are many shades in between.
Most gay for you books aren't true gay for you anyway. They are more "out for you".
Oh, heck yeah, coming to terms with being gay or bi I can understand and easily accept. (Thousands of people go through that process every year!) But the very phrase coming to terms with suggests there have been hints in the past. However, if there's no realization or admission of previous same-sex attraction, or any history of some kind of closeness between the characters -- if all readers get is a sudden ssssBAM! because a certain person comes along -- I'm not going to buy it. Abrupt shifts from straight to gay just don't happen. So the effectiveness of the trope hinges, for me, on how convincingly the author presents it.
Tharayn wrote: "But that really happens - even in real life. You thought your whole life you are hetero and then you met that one person you are falling in love with it and that person has the same sex. But you aren't attrackt to other persons of the same sex, just this one..."This is just what I was thinking as I was reading this thread of comments. I've seen it happen in real life, although the couple I know are women. They had both been married and had children, and had no previous hints - they just fell in love with each other. It may not be common, but it does happen.
And as you say there there are many shades (as per the Kinsey scale for sexual identity). Never say never!
My first boyfriend was gay. He was gay before me and he was gay after me. For me, well, he left his orientation behind a bit. At the time he was trying to figure out if he was "really gay" or not. Turns out he was. He was a lot of fun to be with though. :)So I don't have a problem believing the gay for you trope.
Sapiosexual, at least according to Facebook, means smart people turn you on. It's an urban dictionary term, not an actual description of sexuality.
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So that's why Josh's characters turn me on... 'cause they are so smart. :)
Johanna wrote: "Na wrote: "Indeed. It is not registered in any official dictionnary. I find it also in urban dictionnary. The definition used was : "(n.) A behaviour of becoming attracted to or aroused by intellig..."HA!
But it's true! ;D
Johanna wrote: "So that's why Josh's characters turn me on... 'cause they are so smart. :) "And I thought I was strange. ;)
Good to have a name to call it with... ;D
Hj wrote: "Tharayn wrote: "But that really happens - even in real life. You thought your whole life you are hetero and then you met that one person you are falling in love with it and that person has the same..."So . . . this must also mean lifelong gay men can turn straight if the right woman comes along? (Because really, if you believe "gay for you" is possible, then you must also believe "straight for you" is possible too, right?)
I dare any writer in this genre to introduce that theme. ;-)
Well, Tom Robinson got married to a woman... BTW he continues to identify as a gay (his words: "a gay man who happens to be in love with a woman"). Anyway: no one would read a "straight for you" book round here!
K.Z. wrote: "So . . . this must also mean lifelong gay men can turn straight if the right woman comes along? (Because really, if you believe "gay for you" is possible, then you must also believe "straight for you" is possible too, right?)I dare any writer in this genre to introduce that theme. ;-) ..."
I do realise that you're deliberately overstating for effect, but I wouldn't use the phrase "turn straight" (or, actually, "gay for you").
I think the point is that very few people can be put into a narrow category of totally straight or totally gay. Most will be predominately one or the other and unlikely to change.
But since I've seen formerly "straight" people "turn" gay, in theory I suppose that the opposite may happen too. I haven't seen it myself yet, and I don't think that "turning" in either direction is common. As you know, I don't think that's what actually happens - people simply move along a continuum and in the process realise/discover their bisexuality or cross from one side of the scale to the other.
So the idea of bombarding someone with suitable candidates in an effort to "achieve" a change would be anathema to me.
Antonella wrote: "Well, Tom Robinson got married to a woman... BTW he continues to identify as a gay (his words: "a gay man who happens to be in love with a woman"). Anyway: no one would read a "straight for you" ..."
I actually read a book with that storyline once, a man who identified as gay who ended up marrying a woman. He changed his label to bi-sexual then as I recall. But that definitely wasn't a m/m story :)
I wouldn't mind a straight for you story, as long as the authour makes me believe in it. But that goes for any story :)
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See, I'm such an unsociable cuss, I do..."
And see, I get updates in GR groups through my email. I click on that link and it takes me right to what I want. I hardly ever see that updates page. And even when I do land there, I rarely pay attention to what's there. I figure, if it's important, it'll land in my email inbox eventually, if it's not there already.
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Ain't that the truth about orientation, and gender and all those things.
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Besides the fact, I think (and yeah, I could be completely wrong here) that most people grow up thinking/trying to be straight first, before they realize they're gay. Everything in the world is geared toward straight people for the most part, so that's what you see first. I'm making a huge generalization here, but still. If you're straight, I'd think you'd figure that out first, before thinking you're gay.
Otherwise, perhaps bi-sexual is a better term. But what do I know? It's just my thoughts. And we all know how much labels don't work just as much as they sometimes do.
Antonella wrote: "Well, Tom Robinson got married to a woman... BTW he continues to identify as a gay (his words: "a gay man who happens to be in love with a woman"). Anyway: no one would read a "straight for you" ..."
Didn't Hansen do something like this, too?
(ETA: Just saw Tharayn's reply--belatedly.)
Michael Chabon's first novel was essentially a straight for you story. I hated the ending.I think the elephant trampling around in the discussion is that while we're all somewhere on the Kinsey scale and sexual orientation can be a bit flexible, the teeter totter is weighted, right? People have a very different cultural experience going "gay for you" and going "straight for you". It isn't all roses either way (you can certainly lose friends no matter which direction you switch) but until we have a world without the likes of the Westboro Baptists, there's a political subtext that colors everything.
Tharayn wrote: "Sure "straight for you" happens too. As far as I know Joseph Hansen was married to a lesbian woman - because he falled in love with her (and she with him). The couple had one child too.I don't kn..."
This is where sexuality labels really start to hurt my head. I have a bi friend who is sexually interested in (and active with) both genders, but only romantically interested in women.
I do like the phrase "sexual identity" (also, "sexual preference") instead of "sexual orientation," because I think it allows for some flexibility. Because an identity is self-chosen, right? Like Hansen, who identified as homosexual, even if he did marry a woman. It seems like, for the most part, people take sexual orientation at face value--you're either gay, or straight, or whatever, but that's what you are. But I don't think life is so neat and tidy. And identities shift.
*blinks* Not sure I expressed that very well. My brain's a little fried from several hours of heavy rewrites. I will retreat now to eat lunch and flop senselessly onto the couch.
This is fascinating stuff to me. (Maybe you've all guessed by now that I'm not beyond raising controversial topics because, well, I'm always questioning everything. And sometimes I get kind of passionate. :))I have a dear college friend, a het cis-female, who's been married for many years to a gay man. Although they undoubtedly love each other and have elected to stay together, they wisely and bravely realized neither could ever be the other's All. So, each of them has a boyfriend.
I once had an affair with a 99.9% gay man (technically, I suppose, bi). Never for a second did I think of him as straight. And never for a second did he think of himself as straight. It was a lovely fling while it lasted, but neither of us could ever have thought of the other as his or her All.
What I'm saying, I guess, is that regardless of the often fluid nature of sexuality, I can't help but believe there's a multi-pronged anchor -- emotional, physical, psychological -- that ultimately secures each of us to gender identification and a desire for a same-sex or opposite-sex partner. (Remember Ben Monopoli's superb book, The Cranberry Hush? The bisexual MC longed for an All relationship his straight male BF. But there was no convenient "gay for you" HEA in that story, and it was all the more realistic and moving and uplifting for its rejection of the trope.)
What still bothers me the most, though, are those implications of GFY when it comes to the ex-gay movement -- that there can't logically be a belief in a straight person turning gay without a parallel belief in a gay person turning straight . . . given the "right" persuasion.
(Again, I'm going to dismantle my soapbox and disappear into my WIP. Yeesh, I'm sorry for so often being a PITA, dear people. Thanks for putting up with me! <3)
K.Z. wrote: "This is fascinating stuff to me. (Maybe you've all guessed by now that I'm not beyond raising controversial topics because, well, I'm always questioning everything. And sometimes I get kind of pass..."Alright, so it's pretty late over here (5 am, to be exact, damn insomnia), and I'm not sure how much sense this is going to make, but I'll ramble on regardless :)
Principally, I think who you perceive yourself to be or perceive others to be is not unbiased by what you want to be true or what you've learned your whole life should be true - from society in general or other people or yourself. Even if you're incredibly open-minded, I think it's hard to look at yourself so objectively, to disentangle everything you are from the supposed-to-be's (especially your own expectations), that you get a truly clear idea of who you are without any sort suggestive input. So if you see yourself as totally and completely straight or totally gay, well, you probably are. Or maybe, it's because you're used to see yourself that way because of your expectations based on experiences and imagination.
I believe, most people have clear tendencies, and some even so strong that they could never conceive sliding along the scale. I also believe that some people are truly in the middle of the spectrum, happy with either, or both.
So can a man almost exclusively gay fall in love with a woman and be happy forever? Or can a man almost exclusively straight fall in love with a man and be happy forever? (Well, whatever forever means, anyway.) I'm not sure, but I believe the possibility exists, yes. Maybe I just want to believe that. I want to believe that, in theory at least, I could fall in love with an amazing person and be happy, even if that person is a woman. Could any of it be forced? No, definitely not, not ever. Could it happen because you really want it to? Again no, definitely not, not ever. Is the possibility of it happening slim? Yes, very much. Does that make it impossible? No. I don't think so.
And all of that has nothing to do with persuasion or manipulation or following someone else's rule to a life of pretense. But it has everything to do with the idea that categories are simplifications, and they're good, because they really do simplify, but they don't always reflect the real world, only a model of it. And a lot of times the model fits and sometimes it doesn't. So, if you identify as gay or straight on a linear gay-straight-spectrum, that's great. It just seems to me that maybe life does not really care about linear gay-straight-spectrums. So you could find out that either your position is not fixed forever on that scale or that it suddenly stops fitting who you are.
This is how I like to think of life, as something that can surprise you at every turn, even in such matters. Of course, that doesn't make it necessarily true, but I really think it's generally plausible.
Well... I'll better try to sleep again :) Hope you could find some sense in what I've been trying to say.
Women are generally more fluid in sexuality than men. Perhaps it's a cultural thing where being a lesbian is more accepted than being gay, or many men's innate fear to be "feminized". I dunno. But anyway, I've considered myself as straight and I fell in love with both women and men, but mostly women. However, I have absolutely no desire to have sex with women. So what does that make me? Lol
Jordan wrote: "Besides the fact, I think (and yeah, I could be completely wrong here) that most people grow up thinking/trying to be straight first, before they realize they're gay. Everything in the world is geared toward straight people for the most part, so that's what you see first. I'm making a huge generalization here, but still. If you're straight, I'd think you'd figure that out first, before thinking you're gay. ..."I think that this is probably the main reason why it is less common for someone who is gay to "turn straight" than vice versa.
Cleon wrote: "Women are generally more fluid in sexuality than men. "That's the stereotype, but I've never been sexually attracted to a woman. I am pretty sure that the only way I could have a HEA with a woman is if I no longer cared about sex.
Na wrote: "Tharayn wrote : "The acceptance of lesbian over gay people is not just a cultural, but more a religious thing, developed over history, although the continuous persecution of homosexuals is a myth."..."Well, I would also like to see a little more about this. I have recently read about new legislation proposed in Uganda and in Russia, I would say persecution of homosexuals are very much a reality there, and in many other (not to mention most) places. But maybe there is something in this discussion I didn't catch?
When it comes to my own sexuality, I think about myself as a straight woman, and my relationships have all been with men, but I have had crushes on women. As to sexual relationships with my own sex, well the situation has never come up :), I was after all monogamous through a long marriage.
Tharayn wrote: "Okay, I can try it, but please consider that my english may sound odd - I'm not a native speaker.First: lesbian over gay people
In historic christianity, especially the catholic religion sex was..."
Thank you, Tharayn, that was interesting and helpful too.
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..."
They're lighting the torches now.
Joseph Hansen married a woman. He certainly identified as gay, but as he said of her, "I just happened to fall in love with a woman."
Attraction and love -- love in particular -- are complex things.
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In fact, I know people who pay big bucks for the privilege!
There is still the antiquated use of the word/expression: "Schuhe wichsen" and "Schuhwichse" which is sbout polishing shoes and shoe polish respectively. Though i giggled at both like a schoolboy.
Aleksandr wrote: "There is still the antiquated use of the word/expression: "Schuhe wichsen" and "Schuhwichse" which is sbout polishing shoes and shoe polish respectively. Though i giggled at both like a schoolboy."Oh wow, that is awesome. I never consciously noticed that! And thanks, Tharayn, for giving all this information. That's a really interesting topic! You never stop learning about your own language :)
Aleksandr wrote: "There is still the antiquated use of the word/expression: "Schuhe wichsen" and "Schuhwichse" which is sbout polishing shoes and shoe polish respectively. Though i giggled at both like a schoolboy."So polishing shoes is a euphemism for polishing something else, eh? :)
How's your back doing?
Well, German has some awesome archaic euphemisms. One expression I love is "to brush out her yard" (German: "ihr den Hof ausfegen") which means to give her a good thorough f*cking. It's beautiful because its innocent as a sentence and could just be accompanied by the dirtiest grin ever...Back-wise, I feel almost human again.
My German grandmother, who used to live with us when I was young and played a big role in raising me, used to say whenever I got cranky, "Donnerwetter noch einmal" (which I believe means "thunderstorms again"). I found it kind of charming -- and got the guilts -- when I finally learned what it meant. :)
K.Z. wrote: "My German grandmother, who used to live with us when I was young and played a big role in raising me, used to say whenever I got cranky, "Donnerwetter noch einmal" (which I believe means "thunderstorms again"). I found it kind of charming -- and got the guilts -- when I finally learned what it meant. :) ..."What does it mean? (for us non-German-speakers)
ETA - sorry, I see you explained: "thunderstorms again". But why did that make you feel guilty?
Because I must've been acting like a brat to make her say that, and she was a lovely, gentle soul.
K.Z. wrote: "My German grandmother, who used to live with us when I was young and played a big role in raising me, used to say whenever I got cranky, "Donnerwetter noch einmal" (which I believe means "thunderst..."Hah, my German grandmother said the same thing! (But I knew what it meant, so no guilt here... :)
Saw this picture on Twitter and thought of the conversation here a few days ago about men and cats:pic.twitter.com/gCPmV410
The combination of cute cat (she's a dwarf named Bub) and those sexy arms...enough to make me melt. ^.^
"K.Z. wrote: "My German grandmother, who used to live with us when I was young and played a big role in raising me, used to say whenever I got cranky, "Donnerwetter noch einmal..."Aleks wrote: One expression I love is "to brush out her yard" (German: "ihr den Hof ausfegen")
I do so like this group. German lessons at school were never this much fun. My older child has just started learning German so 'donnerwetter noch einmal' may come in useful. I might wait until he's considerably older before I share yours though Aleks.
LOL. "Donnerwetter" can also be an exclamation of astonishment ("Donnerwetter, da schau an" - is very Southern and means something like "wow, look at that!"). Or "Na Donnerwetter" ("well, I'll be damned", as surprised praise/astponishment). It's versatile. :)
Caroline wrote: " "K.Z. wrote: "My German grandmother, who used to live with us when I was young and played a big role in raising me, used to say whenever I got cranky, "Donnerwetter noch einmal..."Aleks wrote: O..."
Oh, that so reminds me of old school days where it was the coolest thing to learn as many swear words in other languages as possible. I loved French especially. I can't help myself, but basically everything French sounds kind of cute to me. Whenever I hear the word 'pute' (= whore) I go all 'awww'...
Na wrote: "Katharina wrote: " I loved French especially. I can't help myself, but basically everything French sounds kind of cute to me. Whenever I hear the word 'pute' (= whore) I go all 'awww'... "LOL. Yo..."
It really is a lovely language! I've had classes for seven years starting in fifth grade and I loved it!! Too bad, I now seem to have forgotten basically everything. I always mean to take some refresher course at uni, but there's just so much to do all the time. I will at some point, though. I'm pretty sure of that :)
Na wrote: "Be aware that I am no historian, Tharayn. My research usually stops at dictionaries or online resources. Which are sometimes not accurate. (I would also mainly refer to French language.)Most of s..."
Na, this is fascinating!
Question for female m/m writers: have you ever had a gay man as a beta? If so, how did that work out for you?
Kim wrote: "Question for female m/m writers: have you ever had a gay man as a beta? If so, how did that work out for you?"Yes, more than one and for more than one story. Those experiences were no different than my experiences with every other beta. Not sure what your question is?
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Q&A with Josh Lanyon
Books mentioned in this topic
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As Meat Loves Salt (other topics)
The Well of Loneliness (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Julie Smith (other topics)Bernard Cornwell (other topics)
Robin McKinley (other topics)
Tove Jansson (other topics)
Astrid Lindgren (other topics)
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Is it a good idea to tell someone doing beta on your story what your worries are as far as its flaws or weaknesses before they even read it? I guess I keep thinking it's..."
Sometimes it's very helpful for a reader to know what you're worried about. They can either find ways to help that part of the story, or they'll tell you you have nothing to worry about. Sometimes, if there is something wrong with that section you're thinking about, it might link to something else the reader is having trouble with. And linking the two might be a way to see how to solve the problem.