Q&A with Josh Lanyon discussion
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Writing Questions for Josh
Christine wrote: "Anne wrote: "Many, many "literary classics" were genre in their day."And some were perhaps the beginning of a genre? :)"
Yup! :-)
Susinok wrote: "It's just the library I grew up with. It is on the Army base. Most other public libraries I have been in have genre divisions, like a mystery section, a science fiction section, etc. However the bo..."Yeah, that's the other interesting thing—publishers may put the "genre" on the spine, but that doesn't guarantee the person shelving agrees or even pays attention, even in bookstores.
Josh wrote: "Christine wrote: "...But then, genre fiction is the ocean I swim in, so maybe I am biased. *g*..."
Ah. But it is not the ocean I was raised to swim in. In fact, I was trained to be a literary sno..."
That almost sounds like a religious conversion.
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But then I read over 500 works last year. I am going to be satisfied to call myself a reader. "
Have you ever thought of editing?
Ever read this book?
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I think panache might actually be the opposite of the modern literary style. :)
I still have one true literary gig--I write a cooking column for Lady Churchill's Rosebud Wristlet No. 26. It's fun to exercise those muscles a couple of times a year. But LCRW allows humor. I wouldn't be able to do it anymore if I couldn't be funny. I do try to apply small doses of that style to my genre fiction, though. I think it makes the prose more interesting to read.
Nicole wrote: "Have you ever thought of editing?Ever read this book? The Fiction Editor, the Novel, and the Novelist A Book for Writers, Teachers, Publishers, and Anyone Else Devoted to Fiction..."
Not seriously. I've got a full time job already. But I downloaded a sample of this to see.
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Let me know what you think of it. It's kind of a mind-bender. Very interesting.
If you ever did want to try out editing as a hobby, I'm sure that there's plenty of writers out there who need a beta reader. It's actually pretty fun. Like a team word puzzle.
That's actually one of the cool things about this particular genre (m/m). It's possible to enter as a hobby on virtually every level.
Beta reader does seem like a good place to start.
Mod
If you do decide to give it a shot, just remember a few things:
1. There are generally around 4 rounds of edits, so on the first round focus on stuff on the scene level then down to sentences, etc. Save punctuation for last--or never, unless you really like fighting about commas. Better to let somebody else be comma police.
2. Remember to phrase comments non-confrontationally. Such as, "There are a lot of -ly words here. Can we replace some?" (A real comment from my real editor.) Or "Karl was standing earlier. When did he sit down?" or "I really want the farewell scene to last just a little longer."
3. Do not ever make a joke in a comment, no matter how easy it is or how funny the joke is. Snarkiness kills trust.
4. Remember to put a lot of smileys in the MS. One smiley is worth 100 pages of heartfelt explanation when you're trying to get an author to agree with you.
1. Would you want suggestions made to fix an awkward sentence or just point out that it's awkward?2. Totally understandable.
3. I hate snark. I avoid it.
4. Smileys. Check!
Josh wrote: "Christine wrote: "...But then, genre fiction is the ocean I swim in, so maybe I am biased. *g*..."
Ah. But it is not the ocean I was raised to swim in. In fact, I was trained to be a literary sno..."
I am tempted to make some metaphor about a freshwater fish who, discovering the joys of the great blue ocean, transformed into a saltwater fish...but that leads me to think of salmon...and spawning... And spawning is decidedly unsexy (IMHO), so I'll, uh, slowly back away from that analogy. ;)
Panache--I agree! ;D
Or get caugth by pesky humans and grt turned into sushi. Mmmm... Salmon sushi...
Lou wrote: "Plus the salmon that doesn't get eaten by bears just dies on the spawning grounds."A whole new meaning to being "spent" after sex. :/
Nicole wrote: "Susinok wrote: "Beta reader does seem like a good place to start."If you do decide to give it a shot, just remember a few things:
1. There are generally around 4 rounds of edits, so on the first..."
Thanks, Nicole, for the advice! And "Yay!" for smileys.
I wish I had known about #1 when I tried my hand at beta-ing. It's easy to loose sight of the forest because of all the trees. I'd like to try again but this time start with something smaller and as you suggested with several rounds.
What do you do when you agreed to have a look at someones MS and after 30 pages think that you just don't want to read on because it's boring and badly written?
Mod
Well, if you said you'd read it, you gotta read it. However, if it's boring and badly written try and figure out why it's boring and give some feedback on the scene level. Like, "I'm wondering why we're finding out so much about grandma. My attention is starting to wander because I just really want to see more of Johnny" or "I'm having trouble getting my head around the timeline" and stuff like that.
Don't try and fix the sentences in a boring story. It won't matter. But you can give some basic feedback like, "Lots of 'was' on these pages. Would it be possible to get them down to one or two per page?" Stuff like that.
And probably if the MS is really bad that is all you'd be able to do with it anyway. The author most likely needs to do some cursory edits and then move on to the next project in order to grow.
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Depends on why its awkward. If it's awkward because it doesn't make sense because two ideas got mashed into each other some how just say "awkward" or "very long sentence" or "I don't know what this sentence means."
But if what is happening is that the author is habitually using an awkward construction, like having a dependent clause in the wrong place or consistently writing compound sentences that should be rightfully separated into two sentences, point that out the first time then tag the other ones you find afterward. If you do this, though, be sure you're right about whatever grammar you're advising them to use.
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God. So true. You're dealing with an author at their most vulnerable. They are naked before you and you are joking about the pattern of freckles on their...**cough**
Suffice it to say, edits are no time to be funny.
4. Remember to put a lot of smileys in the MS. One smiley is worth 100 pages of heartfelt explanation when you're trying to get an author to agree with you.
..."
True. True because the spoonful of sugar will help the medicine go down, but also because the author needs to be reassured that you don't hate them and their work and therefore do not understand what they are trying to do. The minute the author becomes convinced you don't "get them," the walls go up. This is true of both reviews and edits. If an author can convince herself that the critic just doesn't "get it," doesn't get their work, their voice, their intent, it's a great excuse to shut out all the criticism.
Josh wrote: "Nicole wrote: "3. Do not ever make a joke in a comment, no matter how easy it is or how funny the joke is. Snarkiness kills trust.God. So true. You're dealing with an author at their most vulnerable..."
That very vulnerability would make me nervous to be a beta reader.
The power balance is different. An editor comes with some kind of authority (though I imagine many editors feel that the power is with the author), so unless you know each other very well, there's basically power negotiation going on, and that's fraught even if you do have face and voice clues.
Josh, wasn't sure whether to ask here or in the comments section on your blog:In your latest entry, you provide a passage of your rough draft as an example of what you would have previously sent off to an editor. I was surprised--seems more than a bit incomplete to be sending off! This is the kind of draft I send to my crit partner to beat at for plot consistency, believability, emotional punch, and characterization.
Er, what exactly is my question? Hmm. I guess I'm just a bit fascinated and wondering how that worked out. What kind of feedback did you get on these drafts? About how long did it take you to complete the manuscript after the editor passed it back? Was it just your editor who saw these roughs, or did you have anyone else look at them?
Really, just curious. Like I said, I'm a little fascinated. ^.^
Mod
In your latest entry, you provide a passage of your rough draft as an example of what you would have previously sent ..."
Well, mostly it was like tennis. :-) But of course there are entire scenes, even chapters filled in properly. I was offering an example of the worst sections. Usually what was there could be edited and it wouldn't change much from that. It was more my needing to be sure I was on the right track and wasn't missing anything vital.
Well, other than the giant chunks that hadn't been written.
It depended on the editor, too, and the length of the work.
Once or twice I inflicted that kind of rough draft on readers, but it was really difficult (of course!) for them to work with it. And I knew I was spoiling the story for them to have to work with it in bits and pieces.
If the question is can you typically get away with turning in a rough draft like that? No. And I hate the fact I now apparently operate like this. I think it only worked at all because I didn't tend to change much of what was written, so I wasn't asking anyone to waste valuable time on something that was going to be ripped apart anyway.
I'm going to be using one of my old editors for my two novels this year, and I won't inflict partials on her. She'll have a complete draft to work with.
Mod
In your latest entry, you provide a passage of your rough draft as an example of what you would have previously sent ..."
Actually, now that I think of it, Nicole Kimberling is someone who is very good at dealing with very sketchy drafts -- but she's also an editor who asked for a lot of changes. But then again on SF I was learning a new genre and in GGB all the stories in the antho had to fit together.
Josh wrote: "Christine wrote: "Josh, wasn't sure whether to ask here or in the comments section on your blog:In your latest entry, you provide a passage of your rough draft as an example of what you would hav..."
Thank you! You hit on exactly what I was wondering.
And yes, I think I was partially curious if established authors typically operate like that--turning in rough drafts like that. That's not the kind of stuff they talk about in books on writing. ^_~
Mod
I did say I wrote an ugly first draft! ;-D
Josh wrote: "Lou wrote: "Okay, I feel better about my hideous first draft now."I did say I wrote an ugly first draft! ;-D"
Not ugly. Just...spartan. ;)
(Wasn't it Hemingway who said something about first drafts always being shit? I didn't believe him in high school. Now...I get it.)
Christine wrote: "Anne wrote: "Many, many "literary classics" were genre in their day."And some were perhaps the beginning of a genre? :)"
Poe, anyone?
This doesn't have to do with Josh's experience (although they're sort of related). It just happens to be a current wish of mine. How I would love to be able to turn in a partial and say, "Okay, I know this isn't finished, and I'm not entirely sure how the story will proceed from this point or how exactly it's going to end, but just trust me to pull it off."
Anybody know any editors who'd put up with that? ;-)
K.Z. wrote: "This doesn't have to do with Josh's experience (although they're sort of related). It just happens to be a current wish of mine. How I would love to be able to turn in a partial and say, "Okay, I..."
You know, I almost wrote "impartial draft" in one of my earlier posts, thought that looked...wrong...and changed to "rough draft." Now I know I wanted to say PARTIAL draft. Impartial... Good grief. My brain scares me sometimes.
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How I would love to be able to turn in a partial and say, "Okay, I..."
Well, it does help that I do know how the story will proceed! Not sure anyone would trust me just on the basis of....trust me. ;-D
Josh wrote: "Well, it does help that I do know how the story will proceed! Not sure anyone would trust me just on the basis of....trust me. ;-D"Ha! Indeed! Actually, I have a fairly good idea of how the story will proceed. I'm just being a slacker when it comes to the synopsis. I have no patience or talent for writing synopses, so I'd dearly love to be able to bypass that step.
This reminds me: Josh, have you found it more difficult to summarize (as part of the submission process) your contemporary and historical stories or your fantasy stories?
KZ - I would. But I did make part of a living as a book doctor/writing coach. Hopefully one day I can freelance with that again a little. Right now, all of that flows into Riptide. But yeah, we accept partials. We've even signed proven authors on nothing but a paragraph.
Aleksandr wrote: "KZ - I would. But I did make part of a living as a book doctor/writing coach. Hopefully one day I can freelance with that again a little. Right now, all of that flows into Riptide. But yeah, we acc..."Wow. Nice to know. ;-)
Seriously, a pro usually knows what they are doing. And as long as you're kept in the loop, you can possibly help steer it a little. I guided some clients from vague "I have an idea" to getting agented/published. It's fun. A great process. Much easier when it's not YOUR book. :)
Lou - teach me that secret. I've just opened my "literary novel" and am getting all weird and scared.
Lou wrote: "My current WIP is like when you buy a complicated furniture at IKEA. You take the flatpacks home, unpack them and there are pieces of wood, metal, and tools everywhere. I'm also learning how to c..."
LMAO
Aleksandr wrote: "Lou - teach me that secret. I've just opened my "literary novel" and am getting all weird and scared.":::picks up the pom-poms:::
You can do it, Aleks! And it will be awesome!
:)
Lou wrote: "My current WIP is like when you buy a complicated furniture at IKEA. You take the flatpacks home, unpack them and there are pieces of wood, metal, and tools everywhere. I'm also learning how to c..."
Yes! That's exactly where I am with my WIP, looking around at all the bits strewn around on the floor, trying to read the directions - which clearly were translated from some intergalactic language I've never heard of - and trying to fit the pieces together without bending the edges too much. I'm telling myself it's not a migraine inducing jumble but rather an intriguing puzzle that will stave off dementia.
Lou wrote: "My current WIP is like when you buy a complicated furniture at IKEA. You take the flatpacks home, unpack them and there are pieces of wood, metal, and tools everywhere. I'm also learning how to c..."
Okay, I need to know how to convert anxiety into creative inspiration. I'll pay for the knowledge.
Lou wrote: "Aleksandr wrote: "Lou - teach me that secret. I've just opened my "literary novel" and am getting all weird and scared."Uhm, well, I'm pouring it into my narrator."
This is not the answer I'd hoped for . . .
Anne wrote: "Okay, I need to know how to convert anxiety into creative inspiration. I'll pay for the knowledge."Quit your day job. I've found "holy fuck, is THAT my bank balance?" extremely inspirational. ;-p
Kari wrote: "Anne wrote: "Okay, I need to know how to convert anxiety into creative inspiration. I'll pay for the knowledge."Quit your day job. I've found "holy fuck, is THAT my bank balance?" extremely inspi..."
HA! :D
:-DAlso, when I'm in first-draft mode, my mantra is "it's supposed to be shitty; keep going." The first draft (at least for me) is just laying down the bones. The magic happens in revision.
Of course, some of my first drafts are more hideous than others. If I'm taking my time and going 1-1.5K/day, that first draft is shiny. Very shiny. Damn near submission-ready as soon as I reach The End, even. Mostly because I warm up every day by revising prior work so by the time I get to the finish line, I only have the last third or so of the book to polish up. Other books, I sprint through. I get completely obsessed and go on writing binges, basically do whatever it takes just to get that story out of my head before it makes me a crazy person. What it takes...Dude, sometimes I don't even do chapter breaks. It just pours out of me. Takes forever to clean the dreck up, but oncce I do...Two of my OCD manuscripts (Spoils and IO) are my best sellers.
Susinok wrote: "That very vulnerability would make me nervous to be a beta reader. "Yeah. I am getting nervous about my beta reading. I am not really all that tactful or sensitive and I feel pretty sure I have made jokes in my comments. Aaaand I don't think I am going to change much. Hmmm.
I don't think I could do a submission ready first draft because the story always shifts on my as I write. I come up with what I think is a great plot and then half-way through and I realize it wasn't as interesting as I thought or the character shifts subtly and his reactions change the trajectory of the plot. I'd love to be able to go home with the plot that brung me but I just don't seem capable of that.
Kari wrote: "Anne wrote: "Okay, I need to know how to convert anxiety into creative inspiration. I'll pay for the knowledge."Quit your day job. I've found "holy fuck, is THAT my bank balance?" extremely inspirational. ;-p "
I'm alternating between smiling at this and saying, "Oh, Kari..."
When I was unemployed for 2.5 months, it really almost killed off my writing. I was rarely as unproductive as during that time period.
Lou wrote: "My previous books had fairly decent first drafts. Okay, nothing I would even show to my beta--missing scenes, stage directions instead of descriptions and actions, naked dialogs, etc., but it was m..."Welcome to my world. It'll be okay. Take a deep breath and plunge in - you might even end up liking it the most.
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Q&A with Josh Lanyon
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In fact, we went on to live Happily Ever After.
:-D