Q&A with Josh Lanyon discussion
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Writing Questions for Josh
Na wrote: "Both are creative fields. :)You just have to let it go. Nothing can be perfect."
Exactly.
Sylvia wrote: "K.Z. wrote: "Does anybody know (well, I'm sure Josh does) if and where The Dark Farewell is still available or when it will be available again? I've been in the mood to read it, but it seems to hav..."Thank you, Sylvia! When I clicked on GR's Amazon link, it took me to a page that no longer exists. That should be corrected.
K.Z. wrote: "Sylvia wrote: "K.Z. wrote: "Does anybody know (well, I'm sure Josh does) if and where The Dark Farewell is still available or when it will be available again? I've been in the mood to read it, but ..."That happens a lot, then if you put in the name of the author or the book you will be directed to the right place, but the direct link between Goodreads and Amazon doesn't work anymore at all.
Aleksandr wrote: "I recommend this: http://www.amazon.com/Self-Editing-Fi..."
Ooo. That one looks good.
Anne wrote: "Johanna wrote: "And I'm very interested to read all the answers to Caroline's question, because I often have the same problem with painting... and I suspect that the tricks to let go of the artwork...My father's a painter. He gets to this point where he can't see the work clearly anymore, and he knows if he continues at that point he'll mess it up, "Thanks Anne, Na and Johanna.
I'm definitely at the 'can't see the work clearly' stage. But my publisher wants it by Friday and since I found it this afternoon in the Inpress forthcoming titles catalogue I can see why she is asking. Another forty eight hours and I'll be done.
Mod
Good luck, Caroline. I'll keep my fingers crossed for you. You can do it! :)
Christine - It's VERY helpful. I do like Roz's book, too (I bought the e- and print versions).
Caroline wrote: "Anne wrote: "Johanna wrote: "And I'm very interested to read all the answers to Caroline's question, because I often have the same problem with painting... and I suspect that the tricks to let go o..."Ooooh. You meant edits for a publisher. :)
Good luck!
Aleksandr wrote: "Christine - It's VERY helpful. I do like Roz's book, too (I bought the e- and print versions)."Thanks! Gonna order it when I get home...then prepare myself to cringe. ^.~
On the internet, no one can see you cringe...
If an author cringes in a forest...and there is no one else to see...did she actually cringe...?
Christine wrote: "If an author cringes in a forest...and there is no one else to see...did she actually cringe...?"It doesn't matter, she can rewrite that part.
Anne wrote: "Christine wrote: "If an author cringes in a forest...and there is no one else to see...did she actually cringe...?"It doesn't matter, she can rewrite that part."
LOL!
Anne wrote: "Christine wrote: "If an author cringes in a forest...and there is no one else to see...did she actually cringe...?"It doesn't matter, she can rewrite that part."
Hahahaha!
Mod
Hm. I think that's one way in which deadlines help. Having someone yank the story out of your hands can be a useful.
Mod
And I'm very i..."
I think this probably boils down to the practical writer and the writer who writes primarily for their own entertainment.
The practical writer understands that there is no such thing as perfection. And also that were you to wait five years, you would write a different book. You can only write the book you have in you at the time.
There are different reasons for writing and I don't pretend to be a great literary genius. I write genre fiction and I write it well. The comforting thing about this is I understand that I am not writing for the ages and I am not writing about myself. I am writing to entertain, maybe to educated, and -- perhaps oddly -- to comfort.
So I know that I reach a certain point in the work and I must let go. And maybe this is also why I can't STAND to go back and read my own work because all I can think is how I should have changed this, that, made that stronger, used this word...blah, blah, blah.
What I have learned -- and a lot of that learning came from this group! -- is that I can never see my work as readers do, and that even if I could, readers are looking for something different from the work. All I can see is the writing. The technical aspects. Readers are primarily looking for the story and the emotional content -- yes, the more discerning reader cares about the writing, too -- but if the writing itself was the main thing, you'd all be reading literary fiction and Russian translations and James Joyce. :-P
Okay, I'm kidding, but I think you see what I'm getting at.
Aleksandr wrote: "Christine - It's VERY helpful. I do like Roz's book, too (I bought the e- and print versions)."So, the good news is, I ordered the book.
The bad news is, I forgot to change the shipping address and it's now on its way to my friend on the other side of the country. Who doesn't write fiction. *facepalm*
Mod
That is a very..."
I think part of being a practical writer is that you're generally working with an editor whom you (ideally) trust to make the call as to when the book is ready. This editor knows the publishing house and the intended audience and is in the best position to judge whether the book is ready for prime time.
Which is why it's crucial to work with the best publishing houses and the best possible editors.
Mod
You just have to let it go. Nothing can be perfect."
I think this lesson came to me most strongly with Fatal Shadows. It had a couple of revisions and it was stronger for them. But I reached a point where I recognized that were I to write that story now, it would be an entirely different story. And that was the light going on. Because the book is what it is. And I don't want to spend the second half of my career rewriting everything I did in the first half. The work was read and enjoyed and stood on its own merits. Who am I to come along after the fact and erase all that and create something new in its place?
Josh wrote: "Caroline wrote: "I have a vital editing question to ask of you all. How do you stop? How do you let go of the manuscript even when you think it isn't quite as ready as it might be?"Hm. I think th..."
I've established some deadlines for myself in the past, and blew them up every single time, because I self-edit like a mad woman. Really. It's crazy. "That could be better" is my favorite line after reading whatever it is I just wrote, and so I tweak and change and add and delete, and then I go back to make sure there are no inconsistencies. It is a crazy cycle and I don't know how to stop.
Taylor wrote: "Josh wrote: "Caroline wrote: "I have a vital editing question to ask of you all. How do you stop? How do you let go of the manuscript even when you think it isn't quite as ready as it might be?"H..."
I love deadlines. I used to teach a lecture course and one of the great things it taught me was the usefulness of deadlines, because when you lecture there's a point in time when you need to go in front of all those people whether you think your lecture is done or not.
That said, at this very moment I'm three days behind on a self-imposed deadline for my WIP. It's due to an editor soon so I'd best get moving. Those external deadlines seem to work better for me than the ones I impose on myself.
Josh wrote: "I think part of being a practical writer is that you're generally working with an editor whom you (ideally) trust to make the call as to when the book is ready. This editor knows the publishing house and the intended audience and is in the best position to judge whether the book is ready for prime time.Which is why it's crucial to work with the best publishing houses and the best possible editors."
I agree!
Dev wrote: "Those external deadlines seem to work better for me than the ones I impose on myself."Same here...
Mod
I'm not a painter, but my wife is. Her advice is to always work on a painting one hour past the point that you despise it utterly and think it's a complete failure. Then stop. :)
Mod
My suggestion to you is to get a reader who expects a certain number of pages every week or two weeks or whatever and who will bust your balls for failing to deliver. This is the relationship I had with Astrid Amara for many years. Having a person to give pages to really helped me just get through many first drafts that I would otherwise have spent too much time on.
Nicole wrote: "My suggestion to you is to get a reader who expects a certain number of pages every week or two weeks or whatever."It's fun too, especially if you do swops as well as having someone else give you deadlines.
Josh wrote: "I think this probably boils down to the practical writer and the writer who writes primarily for their own entertainment.The practical writer understands that there is no such thing as perfection. And also that were you to wait five years, you would write a different book. You can only write the book you have in you at the time."
I guess you mean the difference between someone who writes for a living - the practical writer - and someone who doesn't and therefore has the liberty to take longer over the writing? However entertainment isn't the apt word for the work I've just been finishing. Perhaps entertainment means something different to an American? I read entertainment as being to do with amusement, something to occupy idle hours. But yes if I'd taken five years over it instead of two it would be a different book.
Josh wrote: "There are different reasons for writing and I don't pretend to be a great literary genius. I write genre fiction and I write it well. The comforting thing about this is I understand that I am not writing for the ages and I am not writing about myself. I am writing to entertain, maybe to educated, and -- perhaps oddly -- to comfort. "
I think you sell yourself short Josh with that 'I'm just a genre writer' tag. It's like someone describing themselves as a jobbing actor or a hack journalist as in I'm quite good at what I do but heck I'm never going to get an academy award. Come to think of it Edward Thomas probably would have described himself as not up to much as a writer and he did just churn stuff out to make money. It needed his pal, Robert Frost to tap him on the shoulder and say 'but you can write better than that'. But it does require stepping out of your comfort zone? Could be exhilarating though.
Mod
What a great advice. I'm going to put it to use. :)
I'm still experimenting with my process.Early on, of course, I signed on full manuscripts, but as I toddled along, I started signing on prop. Which ended up not working for me at all. I transformed into a massive stressbeast and didn't like me very much. Most importantly, once the dust settled, I wasn't as satisfied with the final product. So I went to the opposite extreme and decided to go back to delivering fulls & not signing on prop at all...which hasn't worked for me, either. Without the time crunch of a deadline, I'm more satisfied with the work, but I screw around more. Takes longer to finish and longer to queue up the release schedule too.
So now I'm back to experimenting with striking the right balance for what works best for me. I signed Plunder on prop and only having one project on prop at a go was much, much better. The thing is...I haven't signed anything on prop since. Dead Cannibals was a full. I Don't was self-pub so, LOL, yeah, that was a full too. ;-) The projects in the works now, I could sign on prop, but I haven't pitched either one of them, even though my publishers would probably sign both.
IDK WTH I'm doing, frankly. Lotta fruity shit has been going on for me and that's made me a great deal more conservative about my career moves. Downright paranoid, really. You have no idea. Turning me into a nutball.
I am a blank slate when it comes to the Mystery Genre. I did not get exposed to it at all in school or at home. So, I am trying to put the genre into historical perspective. I found this web site that looks promising, but there is no bibliography or reference to the authors of the site. It looks logically laid out though- http://www.historyofthemystery.com/in...Is there somewhere else a newbie should look for a basic overview?
Mod
The practical writer understands that there is no such thing a..."
No, by practical I mean writing for publication. Practical in that other people's time and money are involved. It is no longer simply about you, the artist, and your own personal vision.
As for genre writing, ha! I happen to think genre writing is a noble profession. :-) To be a top notch writer of genre fiction is just as demanding in its own way as to be a writer of top notch literary fiction. Possibly more so.
Peeking in to say that "literary writing" is just a genre, too. Discuss. :)
Mod
Early on, of course, I signed on full manuscripts, but as I toddled along, I started signing on prop. Which ended up not working for me at all. I transform..."
Some deadlines impose themselves. If you're earning a living as a free lancer then you have some flexibility with deadlines, but obviously at some point, even if it is the eleventh hour, you must produce. So there is always THAT deadline. The...I don't got money for food or shelter deadline.
Mod
Hmm. I would start with Michael Grost. http://mikegrost.com/outline.htm
Kari wrote: "I'm still experimenting with my process.Early on, of course, I signed on full manuscripts, but as I toddled along, I started signing on prop. Which ended up not working for me at all. I transform..."
Kari, thank you for sharing your experiences of trying to find balance with your writing projects. I am so interested in reading about how other authors manage their writing lives. I'm still writing at my leisure (well, if 20 hours a week is leisure ^.^;;), but I am always thinking ahead to a time I might HAVE to write, and trying to prepare myself... I mean, writing books don't talk about things like burnout, right? Or biting off more than you can chew? But I'm sort of getting a lesson in that by hanging around these discussion boards. Josh's experiences with burnout were an eye-opener, for one thing.
Good luck! I do hope you find a balance that works for you.
Josh wrote: "As for genre writing, ha! I happen to think genre writing is a noble profession. :-) To be a top notch writer of genre fiction is just as demanding in its own way as to be a writer of top notch literary fiction. Possibly more so."YES!
...But then, genre fiction is the ocean I swim in, so maybe I am biased. *g*
Anyway, some of the best classics are "genre" fiction.
I still can't believe something my dad once said. We were taking a walk--and, this was fairly recently--and I was talking about my writing with him. He basically said to me, "Well, that's nice, Chris. And maybe one day you'll be good enough that you can write real fiction. You know, not about dragons and werewolves but about, say, a physician in the real world, addressing real life problems."
My dad's a joker, so I stared at him for a good few long seconds with a funny expression. He was all like, "What?" The thing was, he was completely serious. That's when I tried to carefully explain that genre fiction is NOT an inferior artform. In fact, IMO, genre fiction can sometimes address real life issues in a way that the sorts of stories my dad was thinking about can't. Genre fiction can tap into powerful analogies and imagery--take for instance the movie "Avatar." That movie was one big message (or, many messages in one big film) about very real problems, about very real facets of human nature.
Anyway. Genre fiction. I think it's powerful and important and in no way inferior.
[Now I'm nagged by the feeling that I've shared that story about my dad somewhere in this discussion board before. Sorry if I'm repeating... If anyone would even be able to remember...]
Aleksandr wrote: "Peeking in to say that "literary writing" is just a genre, too. Discuss. :)"
lol. Um...everything is just a genre to me, including literary fiction. If it's a section in the bookstore, I consider it a genre. ^_^
But I understand that generally "genre fiction" refers to, I guess you could say, 'trope-centric' genres like mystery, science fiction, romance, so I use the term to refer to those.
Aleksandr wrote: "Peeking in to say that "literary writing" is just a genre, too. Discuss. :)"
I agree. These days it is.
I hate the term literary writing. To me it is pretension beyond the pale. I grew up reading classic literature. I have a degree in Literature. I read the stuff of cannon and English classes. The thing is, those (now canonized) writers did not sit down one day and say "I'm going to be literary". They wrote to tell a story just as we do today.
The entire genre vs non-genre argument is just utter crap. All genres have produced books that transcend those genre definitions and have become universally known. The problem is that sometimes then the author can't smell their own shit and take on pretensions.
I've also always thought that for a book to be a classic, the book has to have staying power. Like 50+ years worth of staying power. We read Shakespeare, Dickens, Wolfe, Steinbeck, Hemingway, etc. for a reason. Their underlying message and storytelling are still relevant today as when they were written. Sometimes more so.
I also agree with Na. Literature is books. Calling a book literary is being redundant. :)
Many, many "literary classics" were genre in their day.
Anne wrote: "Many, many "literary classics" were genre in their day."Exactly! Though back then the bookstores didn't subdivide the way they do today.
The Fort Sill Library had two sections, Fiction and Non-Fiction. That's the way I've always looked at books.
What's the significance of the Fort Sill Library? I love that idea, and I agree, but I'm also so glad it's subdivided in the current marketplace. I'd never find anything if it weren't LOL
It's just the library I grew up with. It is on the Army base. Most other public libraries I have been in have genre divisions, like a mystery section, a science fiction section, etc. However the books could be there OR the main section depending on who's shelving that day.
Anne wrote: "Many, many "literary classics" were genre in their day."And some were perhaps the beginning of a genre? :)
Christine wrote: "Anne wrote: "Many, many "literary classics" were genre in their day."And some were perhaps the beginning of a genre? :)"
Agreed.
I was catching up on 376 messages yesterday and got all excited when I saw the messages about Scrivner and checked it out. I about hit the buy button when I thought, why? I have never finished a piece of writing in my life other than school papers (and those just barely).I have goodness knows how many writing manuals. I read about writing, I think about writing, I follow publishing news. I just don't actually write. Of course I don't call myself a writer, either. If I ever finished something I might upgrade myself to wannabe. :)
But then I read over 500 works last year. I am going to be satisfied to call myself a reader. Ya'll need me to stay in business, right? I'm happy to contribute to everyone's bottom line by buying your books and be happy with that.
Though when the spirit moves, I may scribble something down now and then, knowing it will most likely never go anywhere.
Mod
..."
Ah. But it is not the ocean I was raised to swim in. In fact, I was trained to be a literary snob. :-D
So my transformation to a militant writer of genre fiction was neither casual nor light-hearted.
And I can confidently say that I write genre fiction with more panache and conviction than the majority of literary fiction authors write literary fiction. ;-D
Josh wrote: "Christine wrote: "...But then, genre fiction is the ocean I swim in, so maybe I am biased. *g*..."
Ah. But it is not the ocean I was raised to swim in. In fact, I was trained to be a literary snob..."
So was I, Josh, so was I. I recovered quite nicely! :)
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Q&A with Josh Lanyon
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