Q&A with Josh Lanyon discussion
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Writing Questions for Josh
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Dev
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Dec 05, 2012 02:07PM
I think that's a great idea, Nicole.
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Don't know. But much depends on how quickly and intelligently traditional publishers/distros swoop in to monetize their digital properties. There could be a lions driving the hyenas off their kill situation. (we who have come first and cultivated the digital ground being the hyenas)
Mod
I CAN HAZ THE POWER OF DIVINATION! MEOW!
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Well, yes. (alas...)
Mod
Wow, I totally posted my lions/hyeans thing before I read this. We must think alike. :-)
Mod
But are they 20 authors that you want? That's the question. And the answer is usually no.
KZ - Yes. But I'm OK with that. Most "litehrahrayh" writers consider romance writers hacks. Who sells more books? Exactly.
Nicole wrote: "But are they 20 authors that you want? That's the question. And the answer is usually no."And here comes another question. (Sheesh, I'm full of them today. Or full of it.)
Do you see readers' standards as being different from or essentially the same as publishers'? Some houses keep the bar high; others, not so; many readers, even less so. Standards for quality seem so unpredictable and vary so widely, a lot of crappy fiction becomes insanely popular while good fiction languishes. So . . . does it even pay for publishers to be picky? What's more important: reputation or sales?
Nicole wrote: "There is an element of matchmaking involved, I think.What would be interesting to do, I think, would be to build some sort of... Oh I don't know what this would be called but Josh would--some sort of page where editors interested in m/m all have the links to profiles (or whatever) stating their interests, what they do not do and citing a basic rate (or saying something like "contact for rate")."
This sounds wonderful. However, a lot of people simply can't afford to shell out that kind of money, regardless of their desire for betterment. I think it's the cost of private editorial services that keeps most writers from soliciting them.
Mod
Well, sure. That's why as an author you'd want it to know you're getting something of value for your investment. That's why if I were to provide editorial services for hire (which I do not, at the moment, BTW--I've got a lot on my plate already) I would have some sort of bargain package, like the 10 pages for 40 bucks deal that would allow an author to sample the goods on offer. Kinda like a test drive. Plus a lot can be conveyed in 10 pages. A dedicated author could apply the critique in the sample to an entire MS.
Mod
Okays. This is actually, like 4 different questions.
1. Publishers--or rather acquiring editors for publishing houses could be described as a very narrow band of readers. Not all books that are popular--meaning that they connect with a readership--will be caught by this editorial segment. Some will slip past.
2. Quality is a broad, subjective term. What defines quality? Craft? Popularity? A combination of the two plus some other factor? And when you talk about quality do you mean quality of fiction or production values such as typesetting and cover art?
3. It does pay for publishers to be picky in that a publisher must acquire MS that they feel they can market. In other words, MS that they understand, believe in and enjoy.
4. Reputation matters in that if a publisher has reputation, then they can offer reputation to their authors as an intangible benefit of working for said publisher. Reputation can also get a publisher things like mainstream reviews, which also benefit the authors in the form of exposure.
Sales matter in the way that we all already understand.
Mod
Speaking of which, I came upon this thread and found both the title and content . . . interesting: http://www.goodreads...."
Not a member, so I can't see the discussion, but anytime people start blethering about their need for "literary" genre fiction I think one of two things: frustrated wannabe writers or readers with an agenda that probably has not a lot to do with literature.
And if that's unkind, I apologize. Generalizations are often unfair.
Mod
I agree.
The gut reaction of a lot of publishers to the self-pub crisis (crisis being their perception) was to create MORE restrictive contracts. You saw that in mainstream, but you saw it here in indie publishing too. But that's almost an involuntary reaction. Someone tries to grab something out of your hand and you snatch it back.
I think the next stage will be (smart) publishers thinking much more seriously about ways in which they can add value to the publishing experience for the author who already has a lot of options and choices.
Mod
Right now it seems there's a bumper crop of aspiring authors ..."
That's absolutely true. And for a quantity publisher, that's a winning game plan. All they need is an endless supply of cannon fodder. Books that keep the mills churning and a little bit of revenue from many many streams flowing in.
Hmm. And in my experience, it isn't just romance. Literary types seem to look down any commercial genre fiction. There is one freelance editor/blogger in particular I am thinking of, but I can't think of her name right now. From what I remember, she saw literary ficiton as a high art and a labor of love that a writer may make sacrifices to create, while genre fiction is a dilution of the craft, a pursuit for the greedy, undedicated, unartful writerly masses.
I didn't read much of her blog after that, so I don't know if she balanced that view with other observations, but I think she was completely overlooking the talented, dedicated, artful authors who have a passion and a love for genre fiction.
Nicole wrote: "Okays. This is actually, like 4 different questions."I know. :) Ai-yai-yai, this whole topic of where publishing is headed really got my mind churning. Thanks for answering so patiently, sensibly, and thoroughly.
Mod
This is..."
That is a cool idea. I know at one time there was some kind of yahoo group of editors, but they were all totally green editors and their criteria for being an editor was having read one of those (I forget the title now) generic paint-by-numbers copyedit How Tos.
Putting together a database of genuinely qualified and experienced editors would be a priceless resource.
Mod
And here comes another question. (Sheesh, I'm full of them today. Or full of it.)
Do you ..."
That's the age old question. And I don't think it's a cop out when I say that it depends on the individual readers, writers, and publishers.
Sex sells. That much is fact.
And for a lot of readers, sex is enough. Reading is not some high falutin' intellectual pursuit, although to a total non-reader it might seem that way. There are readers who basically want the equivilent of a TV show. This is not criticism, this is just being realistic about why some books and series that make other authors want to shoot themselves are perennial faves with a lot of readers.
And that's just a partial response.
Mod
There is one freelance editor/blogger in particular I am thinking of, but I can't ..."
And this is the basic conflict. Literary + genre fiction is an uneasy alliance as far as the type of person who would request "literary" genre fiction. If you see what I mean.
In other words, you can have genre fiction that contains literary elements, but when you find these groups where there's a lot of bashing genre fiction and requests for something higher and purer and more noble...it seems to me (from what feels like eons of sitting on discussion lists) that something else is going on there.
Especially in this genre where you have that ongoing battle of what is REAL gay fiction. Is it fiction written by gay people (in which case is the work of Louis Bayard who rarely writes anything but standard mystery fiction) gay fiction? Or is it fiction that concerns itself with gay characters and themes of interest to the gay community?
There is often an underlying mission statement in some of these groups. And hey. Room for all.
Josh wrote: ". . . anytime people start blethering about their need for "literary" genre fiction I think one of two things: frustrated wannabe writers or readers with an agenda that probably has not a lot to do with literature."I've no idea. What struck me was the commenter's lack of familiarity with the incredibly wide range of fiction classified as m/m romance. Where has be been? How could he be unaware of thousands of well-publicized, and often highly regarded, titles -- especially if he's a member of Goodreads?
The assumption that we -- and he had no idea who "we" are -- simply crank out gay versions of the cheesiest Harlequin romances left me mystified. Yet, there appear to be other people who make the same assumption. I just don't get it.
Pat Elrod has this linked from her site: P&E Editing Services: "Preditors and Editors ™A guide to publishers and publishing services for serious writers since 1997."
Is this the sort of thing you're thinking of?
Mod
You know what? It's the same everywhere in the world and on every topic. The people with the harshest views are almost inevitably the least informed.
Josh wrote: "The people with the harshest views are almost inevitably the least informed."Yes!
Mod
Well, if you're going to have a collection of editors contact info, then I think you would also need one for cover artists. I couldn't design a cover to save my life. That would be a goldmine, for sure.
Mod
Yes!"
That is so true. So so true.
Sometimes I think it's best to ignore those people. They'll figure it out eventually for themselves and probably feel very embarrassed by the whole thing. And if they don't figure it out... maybe they were never meant to. And if they don't feel embarrassed about being stupid for not doing their homework well... not much we can do about that, now is there?
Jordan wrote: "Christine wrote: "The theme song for this question is Garbage's "Androgyny."What influences a writer to choose male or female main characters in a romance?
Reading over that question, I think it..."
Oh yes - Wreaththu is absolutely fabulous!
Mod
A guide to publishers and publishing services for serious writers since 1997."
Is this the sort of thing you..."
Yeah, like that, only narrowed to people specifically interested in working with m/m romance. Cause I've been to a lot of writers/editors--type gatherings where romance itself is treated as such a joke that I suspect many freelance editors would not try very hard to do a good job. Throw in homosexuals and shape-shifters and respect for the writer goes down so far that it reaches the level of total contempt.
That's why I'd want a more specific list--to avoid outrightly hostile editors.
Mod
Yeah, I thought of that too--belatedly.
Now to convince somebody to actually do it...... :-)
Mod
:-)
Mod
KEXP has been playing this song all day.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlVBg7...
Mod
I agree but I can also see authors getting charged for services in the smart model. For example, having the option to buy into a publicity package or having the option to either have free house cover art or buy into a different tier of book designers. Having the option to buy into foreign rights agent representation. Perhaps even having the ability to buy a larger print run. These costs would be deducted from royalties (to equal what would have been given as an advance--after that, cash up front with some sort of reimbursement clause should sales top a certain number of units) Stuff like that.
Because already traditional print distros charge publishers for all kinds of services. I can buy a spot for a Blind Eye title at the Frankfurt Book fair, for example. Or I can buy one at the American Library show. I pay for pages in the print catalog. In exchange I get access to their sales reps, free shipping (except to me, which I pay for) free warehousing and fulfillment to outlets on the entire North American continent.
Here's what I think will happen in the future. I think that prestige publishers will still offer free basic editorial services and free basic art and book design, but at some point the quality of these will decline to the level that authors will have to pay for the upgrades in order to get a competitive product. The cost will be less than you'd pay if you hired each person yourself. High sales authors will be able to negotiate to get all these services and upgrades for free.
Or that's what I'd do if I had a big massive publishing house that had to stay competitive while retaining authors. I would hire an in-house for-hire publicity department and then charge authors to use it. Because publicity is the one thing authors hate to do. Thinking on it, I'd probably offer publicity packages in three month increments for a very low price. I'd hire in-house foreign rights and film/media agents and sell access to them in, oh, probably yearly increments. These funds would pay for manufacturing.
It would only work if I had my own distro, though, I think.
Mod
.."
Precisely.
Mod
I agree this is a business model you'll see moving forward. This is where it will get very competitive too because the bigger the publisher, the more they can absorb these costs and offer these services for free or super cheap to authors -- that will become a big incentive.
And you do see more and more publishers stressing now what they can offer in the way of marketing and distribution -- marketing being a sore point for many years with authors (who weren't willing to accept the idea that widespread distribution was in itself sufficient marketing).
This is where I think perhaps we will see attrition of medium sized publishers, both POD and electronic. The largest publishers will be able to absorb that cost and the smallest publishers, boutique publishers, will offer something else -- literary cachet or super special editing, something very specialized. But the medium sized publishers who can't compete with services and distribution and don't have any particular prestige attached...maybe aren't terribly forward thinking but have survived under the old economic model...those are the publishers who I think will struggle to stay afloat.
But I also think self-publishing is going to be a big fail for a lot of people, especially aspiring authors just now dipping into the very crowded waters. When there were only a handful of people bobbing in open water, things like professional formatting and professional cover art and even copyediting didn't matter so much. Initially there was no particular expectation because ebooks were still a novelty.
That's no longer true. Now you can do everything right but you're competing with cyber shelfspace with hundreds of other authors doing everything right -- so we're quickly getting back to status quo.
Mod
KEXP has been playing this song all day.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlVBg7..."
:-)
Mod
If that were to become the case, I could easily see self-pubbing as a much more viable option. Especially if you have a list of editors, a list of cover artists, and as you just pointed out, a list of people who can handle promotion in varying formats and ways. It's still going to cost the author money though, so then I guess it simply becomes a comparison price wise for what you're going to get between self-pubbing and going to a regular publisher.
I see self publishing as an investment. If you run your own publishing, it's a business and you should be ready to invest money into your work. If someone is not interested in running their own business, they might as well just go with a publisher.
I suspect royalty rates will be a deciding factor for many authors. It's certainly something I've become very conscious of after seeing statements from one of my former publishers -- the mere pennies (literally) I'm making on each title. Such a piddly return is particularly galling when it comes to print editions. Mine retail for $18.99 through that pub, but the money I get per copy can't even buy me a pack of chewing gum.
Self publishing is also a lot of work. When you go with a publisher someone else is doing some of that footwork (from finding the cover artist and editor to bookkeeping, assigning ISBNs and payroll). The time spent doing business stuff is time you're not writing. So it makes more sense to me for established writers to self-pub their backlist as it goes off contract than it does for new writers to put out their own fresh work. For new work, even established writers need to think through how much time self-publishing costs. If you can write twice as many books and have someone else publish them, then the reasons to self-publish may have more to do with control of the end product than with $$.
Dev wrote: "Self publishing is also a lot of work."OMG, YES. The last one I did was self-pubbed, because of timing issues more than anything else, but the work. Dear God.
I'm not saying I wouldn't do it again. Somewhere down the line, I probably will and having done it once now, I'll have experience so hopefully it'll go more smoothly. But it's only going to be a sideline thing for me, never something I do a lot of. I like my publishers. I like being able to focus on writing instead of the million other details/tasks you have to divy your time to when you self-pub. The creative control of self-pub is very, very alluring, true. But I like my sanity more.
Kari wrote: "Dev wrote: "Self publishing is also a lot of work."OMG, YES. The last one I did was self-pubbed, because of timing issues more than anything else, but the work. Dear God.
I'm not saying I wouldn..."
I just finished I Don't: A Christmas Wish and I have no idea how you managed to get it out in such a timely fashion even publishing it on your own! You are a goddess.
Kari wrote: "Dev wrote: "Self publishing is also a lot of work."OMG, YES. The last one I did was self-pubbed, because of timing issues more than anything else, but the work. Dear God."
Yikes, you guys (Dev, Kari, and Lou), I can only imagine!
I've reached the point where I feel like an old dog continually forced to learn new tricks . . . and, frankly, the thrill is gone. Unless I'm struck by lightning and suddenly instilled with complete knowledge of the self-publishing process, I'll probably stick to the old route. But I'll never stop weighing the relative advantages of being with certain publishers rather than others.
Dev wrote: "I just finished I Don't: A Christmas Wish and I have no idea how you managed to get it out in such a timely fashion even publishing it on your own! You are a goddess."Oh, it gets worse. Before everybody and their Uncle Willie realized writing shorts for MMR Group events might be a swell idea, the group did their first free story event, Christmas 2010, right? I think there were only 24 or so who said yes that first time, but I was one of them, wrote You Melted Me. People had been telling me to put YMM on Ami for a while. So I set that up a few mths ago and then waited til the holidays because, hey, it's a holiday story. I uploaded YMM to Amazon at the same time as I Don't. Since it was available everywhere except at Ami, Amzn flagged it for possibly being public domain, blah, blah, blah. I had to explain that I'm the copyright holder & tell them why I was uploading it to Ami when it was free everywhere else...
NIGHTMARE.
Next time I get an idea like uploading 2 at one go, feel free to shoot me in the head.
Dev wrote: "Self publishing is also a lot of work. When you go with a publisher someone else is doing some of that footwork (from finding the cover artist and editor to bookkeeping, assigning ISBNs and payroll..."That's for sure. It took me four solid days to figure out formatting and conversion for a short story. I was tearing my hair out by the end. For someone who's writing time is limited already, that's a lot of time I could have been working on one of my wips.
Mod
See that's another thing that should go on the m/m co-operative list--formatters, typesetters, digital conversion types.
Srsly. Gotta find somebody willing to host this listing............
Any ideas?
Lou wrote: "Pender, you should've asked. I've been through a few of them by now...."Thanks, I will next time. :)
I honestly didn't think it would be that difficult but I have a new version of Word so that didn't help either.
Nicole wrote: "Lou wrote: "Pender, you should've asked. I've been through a few of them by now. "See that's another thing that should go on the m/m co-operative list--formatters, typesetters, digital conversion..."
That's an excellent idea.
Mod
Do you not have InDesign?
Nicole wrote: "Pender wrote: "I honestly didn't think it would be that difficult but I have a new version of Word so that didn't help either. "Do you not have InDesign?"
No. I've never heard of it. I was using Scrivener to convert, but I got it as a gift and haven't really used it yet. So, I was dealing with a new version of Word and software I've never used before. Ai yi yi.
I checked the specs of InDesign on Wikipedia. I have a MacBook Pro so that's compatible. Is it worth it? *ducks quickly*
Mod
That's why I stick with Word Perfect. LOVE it.
Though a lot of friends I know like Scrivener. I was going to try it, but it wouldn't download the free trial version so I decided not to bother after several attempts.
I've been using WP my entire life, so it's kinda hard to give up, you know? Especially when it works really well for me.
Mod
Do you not have InDesign?"
No. I've never heard of ..."
There is Scrivener for Dummies. Don't know if that would help you or not.
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Q&A with Josh Lanyon
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