Q&A with Josh Lanyon discussion
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Writing Questions for Josh
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There's this crazy progr..."
Exactly. In fact, I know more writers making a living from their work now than at any previous time.
I would also say that the crass writeanythingformoney writer is really the minority -- in any genre. Even now with so many not-ready-for-prime-time self-publishers, they're driven as much by love of writing as by dreams of fame and fortune.
My quibble is that they're not willing to do the hard work of learning their craft -- which most of the time comes through working with top notch editors (meaning publishers). But they've been encouraged to think they can skip ahead of all that boring stuff and still make lots of money.
And maybe that was even true for a year or so. I don't think it's true now. I think this holiday season will be very interesting for a lot of reasons.
Mod
Wha...? No! Those are tears from yawning, I swear!"
:-D
Blaine - I hoped you hadn't meant that. :) What i'm saying is, I do know extremely productive authors who still love what they are doing. And the "pressure thing", well, I guess some people can write what they don't feel, but I don't think they are very many. I'd wager the opposite is true.Josh - I think we're completely on the same page there. can't wait to see how this shakes out in the next couple years. :)
Mod
And when I say "write for a living" I mean writing what I want to write. I tried getting into a program that would have me writing some weird advertizing thing. I hated it. I didn't even get beyond the instructions, or the whatever it was that explained what I'd be doing. Essentially, I'd be selling things to people that I didn't believe in. Couldn't do it. I quickly packed up all the material they'd sent me and mailed it back. I'm very picky about what I like to write. lol.
Aleksandr wrote: "What i'm saying is, I do know extremely productive authors who still love what they are doing. "I have nothing but admiration for those authors
Jordan - Yep. People told me "with your talent, you should be working in an advertising agency" and I told them I'd rather debrain myself with a spork than sell deodorants or shampoos - or crappy "low fat/low sugar/this is really healthy/buy this and be loved" bullshit to people. To me, that's the closest thing to black magic. (That said, I am working in financial services - but the people who read the stuff I write/edit here at least should know better than believe what the company is pouring out...)
Mod
That's always stuck with me. Sell what you believe in. What you really, truly believe in. I think that's the best way to go.
I mean, I was nearly in tears over this stupid writing job thing. It had been my Mom's idea, because I had nothing else at the time. But I just couldn't do it, it made me that upset.
But things like TKD and Nanowrimo, I believe in those things, so I could sell them with a passion. Heck, I can't even write well (uh, who can, really?) during Wrimo. It's not how I naturally work, but it's what helped get me to write original fic when I was so tied to fanfic. And it's won me so many fantastic friends in real life and online that it's worth it to do it every year, even if I have trouble writing in November. Both events are about friends and family, because they bring you both. Your friends become family.
OK, getting off the soap box. There is a novel dying to be written at some point today... lol.
Jordan - Yep. I used to work for a roleplaying games publisher. I LOVED that stuff. LOVED it. Sold the hell out of it at various gaming conventions. Everybody was like "Wow, you are a natural sales person." The THOUGHT of selling something I don't believe in makes me physically ill. So, I totally get where you're coming from.
Jordan wrote: "That's always stuck with me. Sell what you believe in. What you really, truly believe in. I think that's the best way to go."Yes! :D
@Aleks: Oooo. What RPG publisher? (If you don't mind me asking!)
Lou - I kicked it in the UK. Just... not the same quality of players as in my area.
Aleksandr wrote: "Sorry: RolePlayGames. :)"Gotcha. Hmm. Don't think I've heard of them.
@Lou and Aleks: My gaming group of ten years finally dissolved recently after a series of dramas. :( (Although, the writer in me says, "YES--more time to WRITE. You know--spend time with all those OTHER fictitious people and events.")
Christine - Gaming was a big boon for the writing. I learnt a lot about plot and motivation AND how to structure a scene. But it still hurts when a group fails, and I've missed it for years. Now, I'm really struggling to give up that much control, though Kendras did start as a character for a Pathfinder game - which ended up being shit boring, and was my last foray into attempting to roleplay in this country. Maybe I've just grown out of it. AND it gives me more time to write. :)
Aleksandr wrote: "Gaming was a big boon for the writing."Yes! I agree! :D
And it's given me "gaming mind," which can be fun. I frequently think in terms of dice rolls, negatives, skill-ups... Like, I know that the more things I do at once, the more I'm splitting my dice, so the worse I'm going to do at everything--especially if I'm tired and have a little less than usual Intelligence. ;) My roommate thinks the same way, so dialogue can get interesting around the house. Silly things, like she'll burn the spaghetti sauce--which of course is a "BOTCH!"
"Struggling to give up that much control"--you mean on the character and story? That's always been difficult for me. I was writing for years before I started gaming. And not being able to "edit" what my character says or does? Oy.
I wanted to like Pathfinder, and I dearly love the friend who ran that, but his D20 games bore the heck out of me. :/ (His Storyteller games--MUCH better. We had a great Mage game that was just getting warmed up when he stopped running it. Meh.)
I'll stop blathering now. ^_^;;
Christine - Yep. I was actually somewhat semi-famous as a Cyberpunk 2020 and Werewolf: TA GM. I also ran GURPS (my own world), and am very much a method actor kind of player and GM. Rules - only as much as I need to make sure everybody's having fun. I can't like Pathfinder of D&D. I tried. I had some fantastic GMs, but it's just not really built to be immersive. :)
And uh, yeah, we do say stuff like "CRITICAL!" when something goes well. LOL. Or just "Crit!"
It's kinda fun to borrow some stuff - I absolutely riffed on my Cyberpunk 2020 gaming with Break and Enter, for example. I could absolutely build Cyke on a sheet in fifteen minutes.
(And, err, I did write German Shadowrun novels)
Mod
You know, as a person who both edits other people and is myself edited, I have to say that it's worth it to share the moneys with a publisher provided that you are working with an editor who will make you work harder than you want to, if that makes sense.
What I mean is--at the end of writing a book, I am typically extremely tired and DO need an editor to encourage me on the finer edits.
And by encourage me, I mean crack the whip. :)
The resulting product is better than the one I would have done by myself.
And as for BEING in editor/small press publisher. Well, I don't know how it is for other people, but there are some authors who I want to edit so much that it manifests as an almost physical pain. LOL
I want to write them notes that say, "Please send me your next MS before you publish it. I swear it will be worth it to you."
I have learned, though, that this unsolicited critique is tacky and so I don't do it...
Anymore. :)
Mod
I think so too. We (publishers, self and otherwise) should come back and talk about it after it's over.
Aleksandr wrote: "Rules - only as much as I need to make sure everybody's having fun."Exactly the way I prefer to play. :)
(And, err, I did write German Shadowrun novels)
EEEEE! Why must I not know German?? (Always wanted to play Shadowrun, but never got the chance. I have a soft spot for fantasy/cyberpunk.)
@Lou: Oh! Computer RPGs! Hell, yeah, those CAN be habit-forming! I played WoW for a good while. My WoW group also disintegrated, but more because of budget reasons. Also, because of some of the same drama that my tabletop group dissolved (there was quite a bit of overlap in the groups).Ha! I can just imagine doing a dungeon crawl while trying to jot a recipe down. *g*
Nicole wrote: "Josh wrote: "My quibble is that they're not willing to do the hard work of learning their craft -- which most of the time comes through working with top notch editors (meaning publishers). But they..."I've both self-published and been published and the thing that makes me reluctant to self-publish again is that my experience is that it's hard to get really good editing when you're hiring the editors yourself. It's a risky thing for a freelance editor to ask the challenging questions. And yet, I think it's cheating readers to put out a self-published book without having it go through the best editing available.
Nicole wrote: "Josh wrote: "I think this holiday season will be very interesting for a lot of reasons."I think so too. We (publishers, self and otherwise) should come back and talk about it after it's over."
So . . . we group members are sitting here reading cryptic predictions of a big shakeout that will probably take place over the holiday season. The predictions have been made by three eminent author-publishers.
You realize -- don't you? -- it's like eavesdropping on Aztec shamans having a calendar confab. And we eavesdroppers are ready to scream the question, What the hell do you think is going to happen already? ;-)
K.Z. wrote: "Nicole wrote: "Josh wrote: "I think this holiday season will be very interesting for a lot of reasons."I think so too. We (publishers, self and otherwise) should come back and talk about it after..."
Hopefully the world won't end on the 22 of December :). It would piss me off immensely if it did. But perhaps some publishers will? Just guessing ..
Anne wrote: "Hopefully the world won't end on the 22 of December :). It would piss me off immensely if it did. But perhaps some publishers will? Just guessing .. "If the world does end that day, I'll be going out with a bang, cause it's my Birthday, and I'll be surrounded by friends... what better way to go?
I would hate, however, having to miss the Christmas Episode of Doctor Who. Now that would just be cruel!
Blaine wrote: "Anne wrote: "Hopefully the world won't end on the 22 of December :). It would piss me off immensely if it did. But perhaps some publishers will? Just guessing .. "If the world does end that day, ..."
LOL true enough
Blaine wrote: "If the world does end that day, I'll be going out with a bang, cause it's my Birthday"Oh, wow! What a day to have a birthday!
Jordan wrote: "I definitely don't have dreams of fame or fortune. But I would like to be able to live comfortably by doing what I love. That's it. I don't need very much to make me happy."I concur.
Mod
I think this is a reasonable goal. (Maybe I think that because it's my goal.)
I don't need to be rich, I just need to be able to not be paralyzed by financial worries. And I certainly don't need to be famous. Ugh. I want my name to be synonomous with quality fiction. Period.
Mod
I think so too. We (publishers, self and otherwise) should come back and talk about it after it's over."
Yes. We should indeed. I think this is going to be a very telling holiday season.
Mod
..."
NIKKI, WTF DID YOU DO WITH THAT SHIN BONE?!
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..."
Good thought. I think I'll wait to pay my credit card bills until after the New Year. ;-D
Mod
I think so too. We (publishers, self and otherwise) should come back and talk a..."
I'll go on the record and if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. It won't be the first time. And in fact I would LIKE to be wrong this time.
I think we'll see a bump in the holiday sales. Absolutely. But I don't think we'll see the bump of the previous last two years -- and I think the publishers that are counting on that bump in order to stay afloat, will be in deep, deep water by March.
I think the temptation of the last couple of years has been to believe that the huge holiday bump was a regular and ongoing thing. I don't think it will be moving forward. Yes, ereaders are still a popular gift choice, but they aren't the novelty they were and there is so much more to choose from in the way of content.
I actually think print might get a little bump this season, especially anthologies.
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That is soo true Dev.
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I think this is a reasonable goal. (Maybe I think that because it's my goal.)
I don't need to be rich, I..."
Exactly.
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ROTFL... OMG guys. See? This is why I love this group.
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I think so too. We (publishers, self and otherwise) should come ba..."
Honestly, I'm not planning on buying any books for Christmas. WEll, I did buy some back in September to give as gifts, but there weren't many and none were MM.
As for MY reading, I'm trying to get caught up on what I already own before I go out and buy more. It's really sad, and very embarrassing when you realize that you still haven't read 15 stories/novels by your favorite author. I have to get reading!
Plus, My CD player needs replacing and that's a pretty pricy thing to replace, so you know, I've just got to get that out of the way first as well. It'll be my Thank God I finished Nano when I didn't think I could and Merry Christmas to myself all in one neat little (uh, large) package. lol.
Mod
Jordan wrote: "It sounds so wrong to say I'm not buying books right now. Soooo wrong. Sacriligious. Someone smack me!"If it makes you feel any better, I think I've been buying enough books for two people. -_-
I amass WAY more than I have time to read. I am dragon atop a hoard of books.
Josh wrote: "I want my name to be synonomous with quality fiction. Period."Speaking of which, I came upon this thread and found both the title and content . . . interesting: http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...
Is "well-written gay erotic literature" that hard to find? One wouldn't think so, given the number of releases every week. So that leads to the question, are most of us considered hacks by a good portion of gay-fic readers? I've always been curious about this perception of m/m romance.
One commenter mentioned James Lear. I enjoy his books enormously, but are they any more "literary" than some of the work in our genre?
Josh wrote: "NIKKI, WTF DID YOU DO WITH THAT SHIN BONE?!"I think she's stringing it with green glass beads. ;-)
The gist of it is, Lou, the person who's looking for recs wants something more "highbrow" (his word) than what most of us have to offer. To each his own, of course. I'm just curious about the mindset.
Josh wrote: "I want my name to be synonomous with quality fiction"Good point!
And I have no doubt your name IS synonymous with quality fiction :)
Josh - Interesting. I can also see pricing war when the feeding grounds get too restricted and competition hots up. Essentially, I predict pricing war between author mill model publishers and self-pubbers. I'm also predicting high-level "defections" from Big Name authors to more accommodating models and publishers. I'd assume that's a trend we'll see a lot of in 2013.
Mod
If it makes you feel any better, I think I've been buying enough books for tw..."
I love the image of a dragon sitting on top of a hoard of books. :-D
Will royalty percentages go up, I wonder, as prices go down? Or would that be a lethal combination for most publishers in this genre? Right now it seems there's a bumper crop of aspiring authors eager to sign contracts, just like the supply of labor in today's marketplace exceeds demand, so would companies even care if they had defections? For every writer who leaves a house, there are probably twenty pawing at the door to get in.
Jordan wrote: "I love the image of a dragon sitting on top of a hoard of books. :-D"*grins*
I'd yell at the dragon for cracking all those spines and creasing all of those covers.
Christine wrote: "Jordan wrote: "I love the image of a dragon sitting on top of a hoard of books. :-D"*grins*
I'd yell at the dragon for cracking all those spines and creasing all of those covers."
As well as scorching and/or peeing on them. :)
KZ - Some people in the genre make more money on their own than 50 newbies in their first year. :) I mean, I know newbies who only sell a hundred copies of a novel - in two years. I know other people who shift five thousand or ten thousand copies. I'd imagine a publisher feels that difference.To explain - I used to be a 500-1,000 copies author. I'm moving towards 3-5k now, at least with the more successful books.
Aleksandr wrote: "I used to be a 500-1,000 copies author. I'm moving towards 3-5k now, at least with the more successful books."I'm very pleased to hear this because you write quality stuff. Your success is fully deserved.
What I don't understand is how some people manage to arrive for ex. on amazon. No one reads their books in advance? I remember getting for free on amazon a short story that they were normally selling: it was written in English by a non native speaker with lots of bad mistakes plus pitiful plot. If I would have payed for it, I would have been seriously pissed!
I also don't catch the moderate to huge success of people writing bad to very cliché stuff. But that's another matter.
Mod
This is probably true to some extent, but I would also argue that one problem with hiring your own editors is that you're choosing them instead of them choosing you. In other words, they might not get your stuff so might not know what the challenging questions are.
There is an element of matchmaking involved, I think.
What would be interesting to do, I think, would be to build some sort of... Oh I don't know what this would be called but Josh would--some sort of page where editors interested in m/m all have the links to profiles (or whatever) stating their interests, what they do not do and citing a basic rate (or saying something like "contact for rate")
So what mine would say would be something like:
Nicole Kimberling
plot-based m/m romance, spec fic, some mystery. Leans toward literary.
No BDSM, menage, pure erotica.
Provides:
Content editing
Line editing
No proofreading
And then maybe either a selected clients list or a selected "authors/works edited list" So mine would read:
Green Glass Beads/Irregulars--Josh Lanyon
Wicked Gentlemen--Ginn Hale
And so forth.
And then some sort of query instructions and information about cost. I would probably charge something like 4$ per page for content and line editing (so that's 2 rounds of edits) with a 30 day turnaround on each, 50% up front. Partial OK, 100 pages minimum for content, 10 pages minimum for line.
And then maybe some sort of statement so you could get an idea what the editor is like.
Like mine would read something like: "Specializes in character development, plot development, speculative fiction world-building. Will take clients interested in workshopping a short excerpt in order to raise the level of complexity and polish in narrative prose."
The main thing would be to have all the editors willing to work with m/m writer in one place so it could be accessed easily by the m/m writing community. Can't think of who might do something like that just for the sake of writers... Jessewave, maybe?
Anyway, it would be a cool idea.
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Q&A with Josh Lanyon
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There's this crazy progr..."
Mmm... that wasn't actualy the point I was trying to make. I didn't mean it had to be one or the other, I know you can make a decent living out of it.
I meant that I'd rather make less money doing what I love, than 'cutting corners' or feeling pressured into writing things that are not me in order to get to the rich part quicker... which is what I thought you were saying... but I could be wrong
edited to add: I don't think money demeans what we do. at all. If I did, I'd be publishing all my writing for free...