Q&A with Josh Lanyon discussion
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Writing Questions for Josh
K.Z. wrote: "The wife's weight in beer? Off to find my fake mustache so I can enter!"It always sounds to me like the carrier is the thing to be, not the carried in this race because the "wife" gets carried upside down so he's holding her by the knees and the back of her head is bouncing off his butt. Women who've done it tell me it's seriously nauseating.
I don't think anyone's ever won with a "wife" who weighed more than 120 pounds. Still, 120 pounds of beer is a lot.
"Josh wrote: "I can tell you one thing though, one of the most excruciating things on the planet is being the writer and listening to an erotic scene read aloud..."I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks so.
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I talk quite a bit about this in the new intro to Man Oh Man, but briefly, I think the struggle for some gay men is the same for anyone who is impatient, skeptical, or uneasy with romance fiction in general.
The very things -- with the exception of appropriation -- Stu mentions are the EXACT same problems some feminists have with heterosexual romance fiction. EXACTLY the same problems.
Is heterosexual romance fiction really about women?
I think you either get romance fiction or you don't.
**I will go further and say I find MOST romance fiction unreadable. But so what? If I want a realistic depiction of life I don't pick up a romance novel.
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..."
I don't think so. Bad writing is bad writing. And it's not limited to women writers, either. Some of the sappiest, silliest m/m stories are written by gay men. So are these guys (who I will refrain from naming) more guilty of betraying family than some earnest young woman who tries hard but still gets it wrong?
Even though they're writing the same tripe, are they less guilty by virtue of being male? Or are they MORE guilty because they know better?
If the point of such colmns and essays is a reminder that when you're dealing with a marginalized group of people -- Native Americans, for example -- a writer needs to be especially conscientious, then I think we can all happily agree.
I don't see why a romance can't be somewhat realistic and still sell well. Then again, there are plenty of people out there -- male and female -- who don't like my work but love authors who are guilty of everything Stu is talking about. What's the takeaway?
I think the takeaway is when it comes to romance fiction, we're all looking for something personal and particular.
I think of those old Indian romances which read more like fantasy fiction. They were enormously popular for a time. But did anyone really think they accurately depicted the life and times of Native Americans!?
Did those Indian romances serve any good purpose? Did they do any lasting harm? I honestly don't know.
I do believe that to some extent, all romance fiction is partly fantasy.
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K.Z. wrote: "There's a provocative opinion piece ..."
I think I am unfairly impatient with this line of argument, having listening to parents worrying for years that I allowed kids to read and report on romance novels. Wouldn't it give them unrealistic and unfair notions of what to expect out of life?
Well, no. Judging by the book reports, most girls knew they were unlikely to be forced into marriages of convenience or that a handsome CEO was going to come along and solve all their problems.
Oh -- and the youngsters who have the hardest time accepting infidelity and betrayal? Young males. So I have to roll my eyes when people start generalizing that one sex is more accepting of betrayal or infidelity than another. That's something that entirely depends on the person.
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..."
This is because people who seek out romance fiction are looking for -- expecting -- HEAs.
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Many gay men also dislike and complain about Glee (directed & written by a gay man, Ryan Murphy) because Kurt is too "effeminate" and too stereotypical..."
The SO and I increasingly struggle with Modern Family. But as I keep pointing out, everybody in the show is a goof and it's almost entirely played for laughs. And losing our ability to laugh at ourselves is not only sad, it's dangerous.
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This is one of its strengths, I agree.
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You mentioned this before in an au..."
Here's an interesting thing. Max Miller, the guy who narrated A Darkling Thrush, is narrating The Ghost Wore Yellow Socks. And this time when we got to the erotic scenes, it wasn't quite as bad -- I think I was more comfortable with his voice and with the idea of him reading. :-D
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:-) :-) :-)
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And all this time I've been browsing quotes on Pinterest when the best quotes are here! :)
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And all this time I've been browsing quotes on Pinterest when the best quotes are here! :)"
:-)
Josh wrote: "Bad writing is bad writing. And it's not limited to women writers, either. Some of the sappiest, silliest m/m stories are written by gay men. So are these guys (who I will refrain from naming) more guilty of betraying family than some earnest young woman who tries hard but still gets it wrong?"Thank you for pointing out once more something that goes regularly forgotten in the argument regularly flaring up.
Dev wrote: "Still, 120 pounds of beer is a lot."Exactly! And -- who knows? -- we could be in for a long, brutal winter. :)
Josh wrote: "I think I am unfairly impatient with this line of argument, having listening to parents worrying for years that I allowed kids to read and report on romance novels. Wouldn't it give them unrealistic and unfair notions of what to expect out of life? ..."I think Disney does more to our young people's psyche than romance novels. Some adults have Prince Charming seared into their being. I believe in optimism, don't get me wrong, but we are talking about our expectations of mature adult relationships. Disney has a lot to answer for imo. Fun movies, but concepts to base life expectations on? Not.
Thanks Josh for a refreshingly balanced perspective. =D
Megan Derr wrote about her perspective on Stuart's blog post here: http://maderr.livejournal.com/1579505...
Wow, that's a good and heartfelt article! Thank you, dear Cleon, for pointing it out!
Cleon wrote: "Megan Derr wrote about her perspective on Stuart's blog post here: http://maderr.livejournal.com/1579505..."Thanks, Cleon, for linking to that.
Reggie wrote: "I think Disney does more to our young people's psyche than romance novels. Some adults have Prince Charming seared into their being. I believe in optimism, don't get me wrong, but we are talking about our expectations of mature adult relationships. Disney has a lot to answer for imo. Fun movies, but concepts to base life expectations on? Not."This is kind of off topic, but has anyone else noticed that most Disney movies only have kids with one-parent? I wonder why?
Thorny's opinion about 'that' post is here on Chicks and Dicks: http://www.chicksanddicksrainbow.com/...
Hambel wrote: "Thorny's opinion about 'that' post is here on Chicks and Dicks: http://www.chicksanddicksrainbow.com/..."Excellent post by my favorite gay man. :)
Thorny's blog and that of Brad and Matt ("Two Boys in Love") are my favorites in the QUILTBAG community. They're well worth following.
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I was thinking quite a bit about that post last night. I think it helps put it in perspective if you remember two points: 1 - The general gay fiction market in general is not booming (it's pretty much where it was a decade ago -- holding steady, happily, but not enjoying the kind of success writers of m/m fiction are). 2 - Stu is an aspiring writer.
Maybe three points, the third being, m/m is a flooded market, and that makes writers who hope to enter that market edgy and frustrated when they see how much bad work is out there clogging the channels they hope to sail through one day.
So many male writers are caught in a kind of Catch-22. They can't help but want -- even feel entitled -- to a piece of the m/m publishing boom. These books are about men, right? That's the partial misconception they keep bumping into. Why on earth wouldn't a gay man be making money on romance stories about gay men? Why would women be making more money than actual gay men?
It's crazy.
You can see why it feels crazy.
And a number of men *are* making money writing m/m romance. But they're doing it because they've mastered the art of writing romance novels. But you can't have it both ways. You can't ignore the tropes and themes and sensibility of romance and then be irritated that your work isn't appealing to romance readers.
It's kind of like hating science but wanting to write steampunk. You can't leave out the nuts and bolts of romance writing but still be a successful romance writer.
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There are two parents in the Parent Trap, right? Divorced. They get back together.
Oh, maybe that's it. There will be a mild grown-up romance for the adults in the audience?
Pender wrote: "This is kind of off topic, but has anyone else noticed that most Disney movies only have kids with one-parent? I wonder why?"It's a hold over from fairy tales and history:
Fairy Tales:
... historically, many women died in childbirth, their husbands remarried, and the new stepmothers competed with the children of the first marriage for resources; the tales can be interpreted as factual conflicts from history.[29] In some fairy tales, such as The Juniper Tree, the stepmother's hostility is overtly the desire to secure the inheritance of her children...
Josh - keen observation. That should be in the revamped m/m writing guide. :)
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I expect it will be. ;-)
It worked very well for the troll Mathew Derringer, who was tracked back to be a married straight high school teacher rather than a bisexual ex-hustler with a psychology degree and an enormous dick. :)
Reggie wrote: "I think Disney does more to our young people's psyche than romance novels. Some adults have Prince Charming seared into their being."I wonder how common that really is. Even if it is, it makes more sense to me to teach young people critical skills in their reading/viewing than to try to protect them from unrealistic fantasies (not that you were suggesting that).
Charming wrote: "Reggie wrote: "I think Disney does more to our young people's psyche than romance novels. Some adults have Prince Charming seared into their being."I wonder how common that really is. Even if it..."
Hi Charming- Yes. I agree with you, this is a non-issue for me too. I brought it up because I had a big eye roll moment, with parents giving a teacher a hard time for students writing papers/critically reading a Romance novel. I mean Really? like they haven't been spoon fed it at home with Cinderella...etc
eye roll please
I could never be a teacher. I would have dreams about shooting people and cars exploding. MMMmmmm.... maybe this explains all the teachers we have hanging around this mystery loving thread?...MMMmmmmm ;-p
Josh wrote: "I was thinking quite a bit ..."You shed some much-needed light on the issue. Truth be told, I've always felt a bit guilty about the fact that women dominate this genre. And if its increasing bloat is frustrating for us low- and midlist female authors, it must be maddening for gay men trying to break in. I fully understand their resentment.
You're also right about the futility of lashing out against popular genre tropes. I sure as heck haven't figured out the secret of successfully writing for this market, so I imagine that men (most of whom don't have an affinity for romance fiction) are even more in the dark. And flustered.
I unfortunately can't be a part of a Disney debate, I am completely biased because I FREAKIN love Disney :) I don't necessarily mean the movies (although, I remember singing and dancing as a kid to Aladin, Lion King, Beauty and the Beast), but the parks. I would live in Cinderalla's castle if I could.I have a son, so the Disney movies I'm watching are different, Toy Story, Cars, Bug's Life, etc. IMO I don't see anything wrong with it. It still amazes me everytime I watch a Toy Story movie all the details involved. I'm sure the discussion is mostly about the fairy tales, but that is not all they do.
K.Z. wrote: "Thorny's blog and that of Brad and Matt ("Two Boys in Love") are my favorites in the QUILTBAG community. They're well worth following."Mine too :) I try to check in at least once a day to see what those guys are up to. Really enjoying it that Alec is writing for Thorny too!
Lou wrote: "Toy Story and Cars are Pixar. :P Technically, they are under Disney, but they're autonomous....Well like I said having a son, the movies I'm watching are different. All I know is I got a great pic of my family posed with Buzz Lightyear at the Magic Kingdom, so to me they are still Disney :)
As a young girl, I was never into the princesses, for me I liked all the singing (probably why I liked Aladin and Lion King best), and let's not forget the original image of Disney - Mickey Mouse, he was always my favorite character. I guess it depends what your watching. My son doesn't watch movies all that much, he likes shows where he can interact (they ask him questions and he answers, or he counts with them, etc.)
But this is just my opinion, I think anything in moderation is fine, just like I can't get on board with the talk of video games creating violence...again just my opinion.
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If you talk with children early-on about what they are seeing and reading, plant the seeds of critical thinking skills, and of course mix it up, even very young children demonstrate independent minds.
Twenty years ago my now 23-year old requested Disney's Cinderella over and over again, by asking for the mice. To her the movie was about Gus and Jaq. Both daughters still adore Wallace and Gromit and the Miyazaki films, but these were more in their pre-teen/teen years. They also enjoy a lot of the Pixar films and may occasionally reference the Disney songs.
The first film version of Beauty and the Beast my daughters saw was Jean Cocteau's in French with subtitles. It may still give them nightmares. Guess I was an evil mom. ;-)
Dev wrote: "Reggie wrote: "I love that. Do you mind if I use that phrase now? I think you are spot on, using a word to seperate the phrase from RL. Thanks 8)"Absolutely!
And yes, KZ - Heroes with Hernias (or in some of my past relationships perhaps Damsels with Disc problems might be more appropriate).
"
Hmmm. Dev, seeing your mention of Damsels with Disc Problems (LOL) made me think perhaps Damsels with Dicks might work better than Heroines WD. Heroine often has a good connotation, whereas damsel rarely does. :)
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Very true. Approaching media with a critical mind is an extremely important skill that should be taught to every child surrounded by media. And like you said, children are surprisingly sharp-eyed and sensitive when they are observing pictures — whether they are movies, advertisements, paintings, photographs in newspapers, illustrations, etc. — especially if the child is mentored (maybe not the right word?) to pay attention to certain things.
By the way, do you have Moomin books and movies in the US? I like the Moomin philosophy and I adore Tove Jansson's books! Just like I love everything by Astrid Lindgren. :)
Lou wrote: "Compare this with one of the movies of Hayao Miyazaki, like Spirited Away. It has layered characters and a story that encourages kids to think."It encourages also adults to think! ;-)
I'm among the Miyazaki fans!
Marge wrote: "Hmmm. Dev, seeing your mention of Damsels with Disc Problems (LOL) made me think perhaps Damsels with Dicks might work better than Heroines WD. Heroine often has a good connotation, whereas damsel rarely does. :)"DWD it is! I always have a problem with Heroine anyway since I frequently misspell it and leave off the final e which gives it an entirely different meaning. :)
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I wonder how common that reall..."
I was grateful to have kids who would read at all. This was a when I was teaching a remedial course. So getting these kids to read Dickens or whatever the heck their parents fondly imagined they should be reading, was a non starter.
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I've got a writing question, sort of anyway...I noticed that I'm postponing reading the sequel of a book a loved, because I'm worried I might be disappointed. And then I thought about the pressure on many authors -> avoid disappointing the fans.
I wondered if you feel this pressure more than before now that you are so successful.
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I noticed that I'm postponing reading the sequel of a book a loved, because I'm worried I might be disappointed. And then I thought about the pressur..."
I'm not sure -- partly because having taken a year off, I feel sort of removed from the whole process. If that makes sense.
But then again one scary thing is I look at stuff I've written and think...how did I do that? Will I still be able to do that? So I think that's slowing me down in getting back to work. Even though I did put out Perfect Day, it wasn't really the same thing as a novella or a novel.
I know before I wrote The Dark Tide, I did feel a huge amount of pressure not to disappoint.
So for me it's probably a mix of not wanting to disappoint but also...can I write at all? And maybe by taking a year off I upped the pressure because the anticipation for me to write again is much stronger than I thought it would be.
But it helps that I've been doing it long enough to know that some people will not like what I do, will be disappointed, will compare to earlier work...it probably doesn't sound like it would help, but it does. :-D I've had enough one star reviews and rants about my work to harden me. Not that it's ever pleasant to know people don't like your work, but you finally reach a point where you can accept it without wanting to quit.
So I keep circling back to...can I still write? Intellectually I know I can. But...can I really?
:-D
Josh wrote: "Not that it's ever pleasant to know people don't like your work, but you finally reach a point where you can accept it without wanting to quit."You can't please everybody! Although I admit that when I notice that someone gave less than 4 stars to one of your books I'm deeply distrustful of their judgement. I'm biased, I know.
''Can I still write?'' Yes, you can! ;-)
Thank you for replying so quickly.
Enjoy Thanksgiving!
"Josh wrote: "So I keep circling back to...can I still write? Intellectually I know I can. But...can I really?..."Absolutely! You just need to be back in the "zone". How you get to that magical place can be tricky though I know you'll get there again.
BTW, I am loving
even though I'm staying up late and losing sleep to read it. :)
Josh wrote: "Actually, there are few things more entertaining than reading high school kids analyzing romance novels -- or really anything they're reading. :-)"try reading book reports by Dutch high school kids, written in English LOL
When I was doing my first (and last) teacher's internship, I was shown a report that started with "He hot from distuingished John"
Now... you guys guess what the first sentence should have been ;)
Josh wrote: "can I still write? Intellectually I know I can. But...can I really?"It's like riding a bike, you never forget.
So, YES!!! YOU CAN!
Antonella wrote: "I've got a writing question, sort of anyway...I noticed that I'm postponing reading the sequel of a book a loved, because I'm worried I might be disappointed. And then I thought about the pressur..."
I guess it is very difficult for authors to let go of a well-loved and successful series as well. But the reality is, some of them overstay their welcome.
Antonella, I suspect I know which sequel you are referring to :-) cos I've been doing the same thing!
I have read quite a few disappointing sequels in last 2 months, I think i will stay away frim sequels for a bit. I have also just made a decision not to read the 4th instalment of a series that I loved, after reading the blurb. I reckon even if i still like the writing, I would most likely to be hugely disappointed with the direction it's going.
Blaine wrote: "When I was doing my first (and last) teacher's internship, I was shown a report that started with "He hot from distuingished John" Now... you guys guess what the first sentence should have been ;) ..."
Whoa. I'm guessing it's something about a distinguished genre? Hope you figured it out. That must have been a tough read.
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Q&A with Josh Lanyon
Books mentioned in this topic
Alphabears: An ABC Book (other topics)Rag and Bone (other topics)
As Meat Loves Salt (other topics)
The Well of Loneliness (other topics)
The Selfish Gene (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Julie Smith (other topics)Bernard Cornwell (other topics)
Robin McKinley (other topics)
Tove Jansson (other topics)
Astrid Lindgren (other topics)
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You mentioned this before in an audio-book discussion. It's interesting because those of us here generally agree that your erotic scenes are beautifully written, top-of-genre. But I think it may be related to how "talking dirty" (saying what one is doing to the other, etc.) is erotic on the page, but in real lovemaking this is just as likely to inspire nervous laughter. Our imaginary selves are able to project personae we'd be abashed to try out in daily life.