Q&A with Josh Lanyon discussion
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Writing Questions for Josh
Nicole wrote: "This makes me laugh so hard. My dad's side of the family is all Scandinavian and honestly you've got to pry words out of them with a kro-bar. Even about dinner. ..."East Asian men too, particularly Japanese & Korean men too. Not sure if it's applicable to the younger generation. Chinese men supposedly don't talk too much either, but some of them, you can't get them to shut up.
Lou wrote: "I like reading secondary characters that feel fleshed-out, give me the sense they have past, life outside of the story, even without telling me all about it. What I don't like is when they are flat..."Me too. And I hate stories where the main couple exist in a vacuum or there's only one or two additional, cardboard-cutout characters.
It doesn't take pages and pages of story to make a secondary character come to life. One or two physical characteristics, a certain way of dressing or speaking or a few props can tell the reader enough about a secondary character without detracting from the main couple.
IMO realistic secondary characters add another dimension to the story. They can be used to emphasize character traits of the protagonist, fill in back story, act as a conscience for the main character, highlight the story's theme…The list goes on and on.
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Nope. They're from Minnesota. I remember listening to that show when I was a kid. I need to find it again. Used to love those stories.
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That's a very good point to the whole discussion Dev. Adults act like kids, not all adults, but some. And those are not the people you want to read/hang out with.
I need to remember that for my own writing. That, and as I started my novel the other day, I realized last night that a few of my characters will be cardboards for awhile. I never did get a chance to finish fleshing out the plot and minor characters. Oiy. I'm so not ready to be writing right now.
Is there a way we can go back to October 31st and slide another month in before November so I can finish my notes? lol.
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That's a very good point to the whole discussion Dev. Adults act like kids, not all adults, but some. And those are not the people you want to read/hang out with.
I need to remember that for my own writing. That, and as I started my novel the other day, I realized last night that a few of my characters will be cardboards for awhile. I never did get a chance to finish fleshing out the plot and minor characters. Oiy. I'm so not ready to be writing right now.
Is there a way we can go back to October 31st and slide another month in before November so I can finish my notes? lol.
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Yes, this is one of the very best reasons for including a vibrant supporting cast -- because they make for a richer, more realistic main story.
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..."
Exactly. I think sometimes writers get confused on this point and then can't understand why their work doesn't catch on. Are people often obnoxious, childish, foolish? Sure! Are perfect characters boring? Yes!
But somewhere between a Gary Sue and an obnoxious asshole YOU wouldn't put up with for five minutes lies the secret to creating characters who are believably human and therefore flawed and yet still engaging and likable enough to want to spend hours -- maybe years -- with.
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..."
Sure. On occasion we all behave badly. We all have our childish or self-centered moments, we all react in anger or out of hurt. We all have egos and tender feelings.
But fiction is not real life. And the most "realistic" fiction is the most carefully and artificially constructed. :-D
And sometimes the need of the writer conflicts with the need of the reader. Sometimes the writer needs to explore his own life, her own conflicts, his own experiences, her own fantasies.
And that may not always be a commercial enterprise --or even interesting to anyone else.
If you are just writing for yourself, no worries. But we publish for others. The act of publishing is an act of soliciting readers. No one goes to the time and trouble of publishing unless they hope to be read.
And therein often lies the difficulty.
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Sure. On occasion we all behave badly. We all have our childish or self-centered moments, we all react in anger or out of hurt. We all have egos and tender feelings."
It was an obser..."
I think it's always a surprise when people in authority or people we look up to suddenly reveal themselves to be...exactly like ourselves. :-)
Or maybe I'm just a slow learner.
Josh wrote: "I think it's always a surprise when people in authority or people we look up to suddenly reveal themselves to be...exactly like ourselves. :-)"First time my pastor cursed in front of me, I was all "okay, buddy, Angel Kari is taking a dive; you're in for it now." LOL
Josh wrote: "I think it's always a surprise when people in authority or people we look up to suddenly reveal themselves to be...exactly like ourselves. :-)Or maybe I'm just a slow learner.
..."
I think it's because we often have subconscious, preconceived ideas about people based on their occupations.
It's a bit of a jolt to your sense of reality to see the cop who gave you a stern talking-to and a speeding ticket laughing and roughhousing on the beach with his kids the following day.
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..."
That's part of what makes for a great romantic dynamic too. The stern remote boss who behind closed doors is actually a funny, tender lover.
But for that to work, to stay effective, the character has to believably maintain both sides of his personality -- the psychology has to hold together.
We like to see *cracks* in the tough, stern facade, but if the powerful authority figure suddenly starts acting like a hormonal adolescent, he loses that charismatic hold on the reader.
Josh wrote: "But for that to work, to stay effective, the character has to believably maintain both sides of his personality -- the psychology has to hold together..."I have wondered how writers train themselves in psychology. Some writes seem to be part profilers, they are so good at exemplifying the nuances in motivation/personality.
Sure some people are really intuitive, but how can someone not so knoweldgable compensate? Pick a Meyer-Briggs profile and use that? Lots of different skills in the writer's tool box!
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I have wondered how writers ..."
Sometimes a writer's day job offers instruction in human nature and psychology. Some jobs lend themselves to analyzing the human condition.
Then again, a lot of authors are by nature watchers. They are observers.
And yet, accurate observing of people enables mimicry but not necessarily authentic psychology. Do you see what I mean? Not everyone who observes is able to interpret accurately.
And then even the people who interpret accurately are not always able to translate that into good fiction. This is where many a would-be author stumbles over the concept of platform and authenticity. BEING a thing -- a cop, for example, does not automatically mean you will be able to write effectively about being a cop.
Because fiction is not reality. Fiction is art.
Being a woman does not automatically mean you could write interestingly -- or even believably! -- about being a woman.
I find that endlessly interesting.
Josh wrote: "But somewhere between a Gary Sue and an obnoxious asshole YOU wouldn't put up with for five minutes lies the secret to creating characters who are believably human and therefore flawed and yet still engaging and likable enough to want to spend hours -- maybe years -- with. "I think I'm going to have to print that quote out and hang it in my office.
I'm always afraid my secondary characters aren't.... worked out enough, but I do try to make them human and complementary to the MCs
Lou wrote: "It was an observation on my part, not a comment on writing. To me it was an eye-opener at the time. I had a natural tendency to look up at my professors, and that's when I notice for the first time that there was only a very thin line separating us. "I realised this when I went back to studying as an adult. We had a teacher who'd just re-started her career, and she had so much trouble 'leading' us, and getting us to shut up.
Granted, we weren't very nice, but she was teaching us about teaching students, and she gave us the impression she was as much a student as we were. The combination just didn't work at all
Blaine wrote: "Lou wrote: "It was an observation on my part, not a comment on writing. To me it was an eye-opener at the time. I had a natural tendency to look up at my professors, and that's when I notice for th..."I spend a lot of years in academia and I have to say that my experience of professors is that while many are fully adult, interesting people, there's definitely a large subset with arrested development. All you have to do is sit in on a faculty meeting to realize that many of us don't appear to have graduated from kindergarten.
I suspect this phenomenon may be more common in positions where people are looked up to as authorities. There's something seriously unhealthy about getting used to having rooms full of people write down every word you say.
Mod
And of course, the cardboard secondary characters, as well as the bad guys too sometimes.
Reggie wrote: "I have wondered how writers train themselves in psychology. Some writes seem to be part profilers, they are so good at exemplifying the nuances in motivation/personality.Sure some people are really intuitive, but how can someone not so knoweldgable compensate? Pick a Meyer-Briggs profile and use that? Lots of different skills in the writer's tool box! ..."
I can't speak for myself, as for me, I studied Psychology as a major. But it doesn't help much in writing fiction if you can't get into someone's head and detach from yourself. Or see something without judging. Many psychologists I know are the most judging people I know though obviously they might not judge you base on society's standard but by if you have any disorder. lol.
My student too, is only 15 years old, and definitely hasn't had any Psyc training or even does a lot of reading in that area, however she can write characters very well! A secluded traumatic watchmaker, a necrophiliac (not the graphic scene, thank God! only how someone can love corpse more than a human being). So I think a lot of it got to do with instinct?
Josh wrote: "That's part of what makes for a great romantic dynamic too. The stern remote boss who behind closed doors is actually a funny, tender lover.But for that to work, to stay effective, the character has to believably maintain both sides of his personality -- the psychology has to hold together.
We like to see *cracks* in the tough, stern facade, but if the powerful authority figure suddenly starts acting like a hormonal adolescent, he loses that charismatic hold on the reader.
..."
True. That's where observation and understanding of human nature, human behavior are so valuable to a writer. But the real trick is to translate that observation and understanding into believable characters.
Mod
True that, for reals.
Before I started writing primarily male characters I got a lot of criticism for writing characters who were unrealistic or unlikeable. Writing EXACTLY the same characters as men--literally just omitting a whole string of "s's"--somehow made these characters engaging and charming.
That's when I realized that I'm not really a very realistic woman and shouldn't try to base female characters on myself. (LOL)
But seriously, what you said--completely true.
Nicole wrote: "Josh wrote: "Being a woman does not automatically mean you could write interestingly -- or even believably! -- about being a woman."True that, for reals.
Before I started writing primarily male ..."
To tell the truth, I loved your female protag in Happy Snak so in my opinion there is nothing wrong with the way you portrait women. When that is said, I love the males in the Bellingham series as well, so just go on :)
But maybe the ones critcising your writing really are the ones that don't know what makes a realistic woman. And what is that exactly...? ;)Is there a test one should take? Should it be based on an American housewife in the 50's or a professional Norwegian lawyer/mother in the third millennium or a female foot soldier in the the Middle East or something completely different or in between? Or are there as many realistic types out there that there are women in the world (which amounts to at least 3-4 billion now)?
I guess what I want to say, that I believe we agree that there isn't one set of rules for how a woman should act, and it is the craft that makes you write good or bad, not your gender or the gender of your protags. And I have probably now tangled myself in too many complicated issues as it is. :)
Anne wrote: "But maybe the ones critcising your writing really are the ones that don't know what makes a realistic woman...I guess what I want to say, that I believe we agree that there isn't one set of rules for how a woman should act, and it is the craft that makes you write good or bad, not your gender or the gender of your protags. ..."
Anne - good points, well made!
Nicole's post says more about those who criticised her than about whether she herself is "a realistic woman"!?! Readers or critics (not necessarily the same thing) with dreadful preconceptions, both about women and about men.
I like the men and the women in Primal Red et al.
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Hey Anne, thanks for the compliment on Happy Snak--my sole female protag! I'm so fond of her.
I guess in a perfect world gender of character just would not be an issue, but it is, alas. And you're right. There are so many sorts of women in the world that surely there must be room for multiple sorts of portrayals. In any sort of genre fiction, though, it seems like the range that readers allow the characters to inhabit is truncated by the demands of the rest of the story. Readers of both fantasy and romance (the two genres I write most) do very much like to keep their gender roles mostly intact.
I mean, how many romances have you read that feature "beta males?" Or romances that feature rational, dispassionate women? Fantasy, if anything, is more traditional than romance right now. If a chick is wearing pants in fantasy, its still a big deal. And I can't think of a single cross-dressing male protagonist. (Though historically there are some really interesting cross-dressers, including one professional duelist.)
This isn't how it should be, of course, but I've always been a pragmatist when it comes to picking my battles. I think that's one one the reasons I've confined my major female characters to contemporary or futuristic settings.
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Ah, thanks for that. I think what I meant to say there, when I said I wasn't a realistic woman, is that my experiences as a female are not mainstream enough to naturally resonate with the majority of readers. So I can't use myself as a model and have to seek inspiration in the histories and personalities of my female friends, instead of using myself and my autobiography for source material.
However, I can use myself and my auto-biography a lot when generating the character of Peter Fontaine from Bellingham Mysteries and have reader response turn out just fine.
I don't know what that means exactly.... But its interesting.
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As for cross dressing guys... you're right, I can't think of any myself either. Everyone is always wearing robes... which just makes me wonder (like a kilt) what's underneath? lol. But seriously, I'd like to see a manly man in a skirt or a dress in a fantasy novel. I think I will have to plan for that to happen in a novel someday.
Nicole wrote: If a chick is wearing pants in fantasy, its still a big deal. And I can't think of a single cross-dressing male protagonist.Perhaps we are thinking of different things, but I know several fantasy novels with tough female characters. Barbara Hambly's The Time of the Dark features a cool woman who becomes a swordswoman. CE Murphy's Urban Shaman has a strong female protagonist - she is a mechanic, a cop, and a magic user who saves the world on a regular basis. And when she becomes a detective, her partner is a big, burly, manly man who cross-dresses.
As for romance, Doranna Durgin wrote several romances where the heroine saved the hero, and I would definitely not describe the heroes as alpha males.
Granted, the books I have mentioned are more the exception rather than the rule, but they do exist.
Mod
Wow, I haven't thought of Time of the Dark in AGES! I think I must have read that book at least 20 years ago. That was a pretty good one, actually.
What I was talking about was that pants-wearing female protags are a big deal to the other characters in the book, rather than to readers. Because the pants wearing surprise girl swordswoman/warrior is plainly a pretty common trope. (Most recently recycled in Pixar's "Brave")
Thanks for letting me know about "Urban Shaman." It's good to know that there ARE cross-dressing male characters in fantasy fiction these days.... or at least one!
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Inara was a great character for standing up for herself and being just as sneaky as the men.
I love high heels... but mostly when they're attached to kick-ass platform boots ;)
Blaine wrote: "I love high heels... but mostly when they're attached to kick-ass platform boots ;)"I love high heels. As long as I'm not the one who's wearing them. ;)
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I love high heels. As long as I'm not the one who's wearing them. ;)"
I dance in them, but can't walk in them. Ironically, tango is a "walking dance."
I'm going to chime in late (as usual!) and say that I loved Happy Snak because I can identify with Gaia as I do not identify with many romance or indeed spec fic heroines.I tend to find that many so called "kick-ass" heroines talk the talk but don't walk the walk as regards to eschewing traditional female roles. In that I mean they might get to have cool powers or be a swordswoman or assassin or whatever, but they still have the "traditional female" mindset in that in the end they still look for and bow to their male protector. There's still the power imbalance.
I loved Happy Snak for many reasons, the main being I still find it hard to find female characters I can relate to and want to read about, so I am especially happy when I do. Gaia was awesome, not because she was unrealistically perfect, but because she felt like a real person to me. And secondly because I was touched by the overall theme of the story - it's not often I find books that are about friendship, but it's a theme I enjoyed reading about very much. The last scene of the book gave me warm fuzzies. :-)
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Thanks Merael... You know all I was trying to do with that one was have a lady character with a real job... that she actually goes to during the course of the book. LOL
Nicole wrote: "Thanks Merael... You know all I was trying to do with that one was have a lady character with a real job... that she actually goes to during the course of the book. LOL "That was one of the things I liked about her - that she has a job that has real meaning to her. I haven't read a lot of romance where the heroine's occupation helps define her character and goals, not simply being a placeholder while she waits for her man to fulfill her. :-)
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This is probably why most of my main characters end up as cops.
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True that, for reals.
Before I started writing ..."
I'd forgotten this interesting conversation!
You know, part of it might be that women readers seek something different from female characters than male? Do they read more critically perhaps?
I think Nicole's point is well taken, though. We all accept certain fictional behaviors from male characters that we would not accept from female characters.
One of the common -- depressingly common, in fact -- complaints I hear from female readers is how bored they are by heterosexual romance and fiction. Why? How can this be, given the variety of writers and fiction out there? Are they just not reading very widely?
But then equally confusing is when readers ADORE the same helpless, wimpy behaviors in male characters that they abhor in female characters. What is up with that?
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..."
I find this astonishing. The idea that fantasy would be so traditional now of all times!
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..."
Interesting. So many writers are working from the idea of a historical world, and then imposing our own historical traditions and values -- and yet the fun part would be to shake all that up.
Come to think of it, it would probably be more original now days to write fantasy where the heroine was NOT a sword slinging badass warrior. Someone who got by just on her wits and charm.
When starting a romance, or a fantasy, a crime mystery or any other genre specific book, there are certain expectations I expect will be met. But, if an author can surprise me within those set boundaries and still make it work, I am thrilled! So, please, more non-conformist female or male protags, more stunning and lovely language, more fantastical, unexpected world- building, please. Not that I am pressuring you or anything:)
Josh wrote: "We all accept certain fictional behaviors from male characters that we would not accept from female characters."And vice versa. ;-)
I've always liked Ridley in the Alien movies. She's not conventionally attractive, not out to bag (or bang) a man, but is gritty and capable and able to think on her feet. After my two forays into Anita Blake novels, I honestly couldn't stand to read more of that kind of UF heroine. Blech!
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And vice versa. ;-)
I've always liked Ridley in the Alien movies. She..."
Yes. She's fit but the thing that stays with us is she's smart and resourceful and mentally tough. Yet she goes back for her cat. :-)
Thus making us love her even more.
I believe the part was originally written to be male. (Same with "Salt", apparently), so the "female agenda" (bag a man, get raped/near-raped, have sex, be desirable or get rescued and serve as a "price" for a male hero) never figured.
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I'd heard that too.
Aleksandr wrote: "I believe the part was originally written to be male. (Same with "Salt", apparently), so the "female agenda" (bag a man, get raped/near-raped, have sex, be desirable or get rescued and serve as a "..."So that's the female agenda? I never knew ;)
LOL. According to some scriptwriters I've read... :)
Josh wrote: "One of the common -- depressingly common, in fact -- complaints I hear from female readers is how bored they are by heterosexual romance and fiction. Why? How can this be, given the variety of writers and fiction out there? Are they just not reading very widely?"Over familiarity? Too formulaic? People like novelty and different ways of looking at romance? I'm not sure either, but for the most part, though I do read romance novels, I'm very picky about what/who I read and even then will find myself skipping over parts because I don't enjoy having certain intimate activities described in detail (which is ironic since I do read m/m erotica like Stephani Hecht, Amber Kell and Charlie Richards).
Some of the best romance stories I've ever read aren't romances at all but belong to other genres - Elizabeth Peters' Amelia Peabody mystery series comes to mind. The relationship between Emerson and Peabody is a joy to read. I also find the relationship between Vickie Nelson and Mike Celucci from Tanya Huff's Victoria Nelson paranormal mysteries series to be quite good.
I like it especially when the romance in question is secondary to the overall plot, just part of the growing relationship between characters rather than the central focus.
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Lori, I feel the same about those two series. I'm trying to think of another, but the ones I'm considering tend towards the demon/vampire/supernatural baddie-hunter types and various cliches... will give it more thought. I've always enjoyed Emerson and Amelia.
How about Elizabeth Peters' other series featuring Vickie Bliss and John Tregarth (aka Sir John Smythe)? Not as involved at Emerson and Amelia, but still sweet.
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Q&A with Josh Lanyon
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A-fucking-men! In school you'll realize the teachers' maturity score overall is usually less than the students. lol.
And so true about the clique thing. It's been driving me and my friends crazy around here.