Q&A with Josh Lanyon discussion
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Writing Questions for Josh
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When you write about detectives in your stories, do you research or do you write from personal experience?
I'm doing research for a detective character I want to write. I recently finished ..."
Well, my second hand experience is now getting pretty out of date as most of my law enforcement family and friends are hitting retirement or dying off. Of course some things never change. People don't really change much, but procedure and policy changes quite dramatically.
In fact, I was discussing this somewhere recently -- how impatient I get with cop stories that seem unduly influenced by my work and the work of earlier writers -- things have changed a lot in the years since I wrote FS. No, it's not all sunshine and roses for gay law enforcement, but to act like NO progress has been made sort of undermines what achievements there have been.
Anyway, in answer to your question, I have a number of books on forensics and procedure, but these too are getting quickly out of date given the strides in technology. So I do a lot of double-checking on the web and in various law enforcement forums.
I think you kind of have to do that now--the web has become an integral part of research for the modern writer--but you also have to check and double check all info, and keep in mind that a lot of the people giving the info are like any group of people you work with in any office. Some are smarter and more informed than others.
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When you write about detectives in your stories, do you research or do you write from personal experience?
I'm doing research for a detective character I want to write. I recently finished ..."
I don't have the Simon book, but I do have Corwin's.
I haven't read any of these, but they look like a pretty good selection to me:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_nos...
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Another book that's very very good is Howdunit Police Procedure & Investigation: A Guide for Writers. I absolutely love this book. The author is a retired cop and has his own blog that's also a great resource: http://www.leelofland.com/wordpress/
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I've got that Howdunit one too -- yes it is useful!
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Hey I just finally got a chance to read CUTTYS last week. I agree with Vivian on the 2nd person CYOA chapter lead-ins. Thought it worked well with the theme of a person in recovery from serious addiction.
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Thinking of that, here's a 10 year old article that I read recently that could be best described as "a brief history of gay cops in the LAPD." I'm sure its changed even more since then.
http://www.laweekly.com/2002-09-12/ne...
But you know, I happen to have been thinking about the LAPD myself because I just went there (to Long Beach, not to the LAPD) for Yaoi-Con.
And through the course of general research on the city (read: I was looking for restaurants and got sidetracked) I realized just how completely insane jurisdictions in Los Angeles county are.
More than that, the whole history of the police there is just fascinating. Whole police departments have been dissolved because of corruption. Apparently the entire plot and premise of The Wire is about one now dissolved police unit in the greater LA area.
I know that we are mainly talking about building romances and cosy mysteries here, rather than gritty dramas. But I couldn't help thinking that although paying attention to police procedures is good in a nuts and bolts kind of way, one thing that very few m/m writers who like to have cop characters have ever delved into is law enforcement infiltration by organized crime.
Not that I have any big ideas about how to make that a very, very sexy romance. :)
I'm just saying that it would be really interesting if someone could.
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Yes. LA Confidential for example -- to put a historical spin on it. I'd like to see stories that address bigger issues, more complex scenarios -- and within that context it should be possible to work in a romantic subplot.
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I agree. I'd add that very often present tense can also sound sing-songy and almost always creates a dream-like atmosphere. And that's good if what a person is trying to do is create a dream-like atmosphere.
I've seen a lot of slipstream and magical realism stories use present tense to great effect. But the downside of creating that sense of "not quite in this reality" disconnectedness is that readers tend to become distanced from the characters so readers who are reading primarily for characterization or for catharsis with characters lose interest quickly.
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Hey I just finally got a chance to read CUTTYS las..."
Thank you!
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That's exactly what I was thinking. The one thing to avoid, I think would be to make it too easy. I mean, I don't think that a cop could realistically have an affair with a guy from MS-13 and have that turn out happily ever after.
(While I was at Y-Con I read a manga about a cop/yakuza love affair where the cop was pretty much the worst detective ever. But had pretty art.)
There's gotta be a way to bring more complex cop stories into the romance genre, though. There's just gotta!
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I think so. It requires building a better primary story, which requires length and complexity -- not that we don't have plenty of long stories in this genre, but they aren't particularly complex. A lot of romantic angst is not actually a complex plot. :-D
I think sometimes writers confuse drama with depth.
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I think sometimes writers confuse drama with depth."
I know, right? I personally find it hard to pay attention to a lot of angst because often, for me, angst reads as dithering, wishy-washiness or just bad problem-solving skills.
Plenty of people love it, though.
One barrier I see to creating those more complex plots, though is the necessity of meaningful, well-developed side-characters in a genre that traditionally eschews the side character. That's a balancing act for sure.
I thoroughly agree with both of you -- especially this: "I think sometimes writers confuse drama with depth." And this: "I personally find it hard to pay attention to a lot of angst because often, for me, angst reads as dithering, wishy-washiness or just bad problem-solving skills."Or just an empty device.
I recently read two novels by a highly regarded author in our genre. Although the author's prose was beautiful, both plots centered on insta-love followed by a series of angst-inducing crises and buckets of tears. I simply couldn't take the nonstop, over-the-top melodrama and scratched that writer off my TBR list for good. At some point in each of those books, reading on was like trying to chew and swallow food while I was well past being stuffed.
The secondary-characters issue is something else I've noticed in my reading. With deft handling, minor characters enrich the protagonists' world. But if they aren't carefully controlled, they dilute that world by becoming too much of a distraction. In romance fiction especially, this isn't good. Attention should never be deflected for long from the central couple or conflict.
I have no patience for a supporting cast that spends too much time onstage, for discursive ramblings through their irrelevant back-stories or strenuous attempts at using them for comic relief. A series I thought I'd love based on the first book completely lost me in the second, primarily because the author became enamored of a secondary character I found annoying in the extreme. She threw the whole plot -- and, I figured, would continue to throw the whole series -- into imbalance.
K.Z. wrote: "I thoroughly agree with both of you -- especially this: "I think sometimes writers confuse drama with depth." So true! I recently read two novels by a highly regarded author in our genre and, alt..."
I think it takes a great skill to write a real life stories with real life hurdles in relationships, like fear of commitment, personal differences, career choice, etc, and turn them into deep & meaningful stories and that's why I love Josh' stories so much.
Also it doesn't take great tragedies/ angst to make readers sympathize with the characters. Even with minimal conflict, a story can turn to be very memorable, and without overload of sugary fluff, such as your Electric Melty Tingles, KZ. I have a warm fuzzy right now just remembering your story.
Thank you so much for saying that, Cleon! It gave me a warm fuzzy. :)I'll admit I'm partial to drama on a personal scale. Internal struggles can be complex and fascinating, even when they're incorporated into epic fantasy, sci fi, and steampunk novels (lookin' at you, Ginn Hale). And I agree, Josh excels at incorporating subtle psycho-emotional tension into his stories. CUTYS, in particular, ranks among my favorite reads.
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I agree with this in principle, but I also suggest that weak or non-existent secondary characters might lead to some very one-dimensional, predictable plots and dull worlds--I'm talking mainly about SF&F inspired fiction here.
Being a fan of the ensemble cast, I've thought a lot about secondary characters. I think what might make or break them is the protag's degree of relatedness to them.
Since we're on Josh's group I'll use AE as an example. There are a bunch of prominent secondary characters in this series. On Team Adrien we've got Lisa, Angus, Guy the step-sisters, the writer's group and the cat. On Team Jake we've got Chan and the ever-present, but, until the very end, unseen presence of Kate.
We end up caring about them all because Adrien cares about them all and we care about what Adrien cares about.
I think when side characters go really wrong is when the protag doesn't care about (or even actively dislikes) them but for some reason the author makes us read a lot about them anyway.
That's just a thought, though.
Oh, hell yeah, ensemble casts are more common, and probably more necessary, in SF&F. I think they pose more of a potential problem, though, in contemporary romance -- or any romance, for that matter. If a writer gets too carried away with one or more secondaries (and this is where the deft handling comes into play), s/he is in danger of upsetting the apple cart.
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Yes. To develop the kind of story we're talking about requires solid subplots, and solid subplots require a cast of believable and interesting side characters. Characters the reader actually cares about -- or at least finds interesting enough to not resent time spent away from the protagonists' central concern.
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I think this is the challenge, and probably one reason so many writers in our genre steer clear of an active supporting cast.
And, given the painful stereotypes and cliches (the sassy African American best friend, to take one example -- or the chubby, sexually voracious but doomed to rejection fag hag best pal to take another) maybe it's a wise choice. Better no supporting cast than a bad supporting cast.
At the same time, the lack of a strong supporting cast does limit the plot possibilities.
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So true! If anything our genre suffers from an overload of contrived drama and manufactured angst. I mean, about 98% of the romantic obstacles I see in most of the m/m stories I read could be cleared up by both main characters simply acting like grown ups.
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I'll admit I'm partial to drama on a personal scale. Internal struggles can be complex and fascinating, even when they're inco..."
Thank you, KZ. That's very kind.
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..."
Such an interesting observation -- and so true. In fact, I was smiling as I read that because YES. So often we readers are forced to spend time with what I call "book people." Characters who only exist because the author understood that a supporting cast was required. And yet they are not particularly real and it is clear the author doesn't like them anymore than we do! :-D
What IS that about?
Josh wrote: "So true! If anything our genre suffers from an overload of contrived drama and manufactured angst. I mean, about 98% of the romantic obstacles I see in most of the m/m stories I read could be cleared up by both main characters simply acting like grown ups. ..."In their defense, most adults don't act like they're adults. We just have to look at our coworkers to confirm this fact. lol.
Josh wrote: "What IS that about?"The only legal way to kill my neighbors and anyone else who pisses me off. Lack of realism = plausible deniability.
Er...
Not that I would do that, of course. Just floating a...uh...theory! Yeah, that's the
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I don't know that that's actually true, Cleon. Although I bet it does widely vary depending on one's chosen profession. :-)
I do know that I'm not interested in reading YA fiction. Especially when it's supposed to pass for grown up romance.
Josh wrote: "At the same time, the lack of a strong supporting cast does limit the plot possibilities."This depends largely, I think, on the nature of the story and the size of its arc. A novella can't absorb too much population; a large novel or series, on the other hand, can more easily accommodate a variety of players.
Of course the most important thing in either case is that the extras don't derail the storyline or eclipse the central couple.
Josh wrote: "I don't know that that's actually true, Cleon. Although I bet it does widely vary depending on one's chosen profession. :-)..."I think it's not the profession as much as the environment you're stuck with. Or maybe it IS the profession. LOL.
Kari wrote: "Josh wrote: "What IS that about?"The only legal way to kill my neighbors and anyone else who pisses me off. Lack of realism = plausible deniability."
:-D
Nicole wrote: "I know, right? I personally find it hard to pay attention to a lot of angst because often, for me, angst reads as dithering, wishy-washiness or just bad problem-solving skills."So much this.
I really don't much enjoy reading about people being stupid. Or at least it had better be funny and not heart-rending. (I can read literature for that.)
But is such a staple of romance that a lot of people must enjoy it. Different personality types perhaps.
Josh wrote: "Thank you, KZ. That's very kind."You're welcome. It's also very true. ;-)
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I think it's not the profession as much as the environm..."
I know! I think they're inextricably bound together.
:-)
Charming wrote: "Nicole wrote: "I know, right? I personally find it hard to pay attention to a lot of angst because often, for me, angst reads as dithering, wishy-washiness or just bad problem-solving skills."So ..."
Belong to a race of people (Norwegians that is) who never talk about emotions if they can avoid it, this goes for almost all the men at least, there is some realism in stories where the problems stem from lack of communication. When that is said, there are stories where I have the urge to scream, just say it you moron. And then the book would end.. ;)
Josh wrote: "I mean, about 98% of the romantic obstacles I see in most of the m/m stories I read could be cleared up by both main characters simply acting like grown ups. "Uh, yeah.
I don't know why I needed to weigh in with that, but I did.
Josh wrote: "Characters who only exist because the author understood that a supporting cast was required. And yet they are not particularly real and it is clear the author doesn't like them anymore than we do! :-D What IS that about?"
That's about not wanting to create supporting characters who you later have to provide stories for because you love them so much.
Obviously, there are other ways around this, but I've learned that too slowly for it to do me any good before now.
I know there are lots of resources for police procedures and detective-type skills, but does anyone have suggestions for how to figure out the exact sequence of events for the lead-up to a criminal trial? It's the US, but other than being a state in the western US state isn't as important.
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So true what Cleon, Anne, and Jordan said. Adults don't always act like adults -- men in particular, in my experience :) -- so there is some justification for that lack-of-communication trope.
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Thanks for posting the link to that article! Sooo facinating!
And yeah, you're right. There has to be a way to make that kind of story work. Heck, if Aleksandr Voinov can do something rough and tumble with Special Forces, especially in the first book, someone can do it with regular police officers.
I think you've given me a challenge I'm going to have to look into attempting. I enjoy writing about cops too much.
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So, yeah. People like to think they've changed a lot when they go back to their highschool reunions, but they don't. And I'm avoiding my reunions like the plague! Besides, all I ever did in highschool was write or read. And that's what the rest of my class will tell you too. ... I'm such a boring person in real life. lol. I'm still like that today.
So many great lines in this thread! I could really make use of a 'like' button! =DFor me, the difference between writing and craft, is the ability to: simply communicate complexity. Seems like magic, to me....
I think I agree that lots of folks don't act like adults but the problem I have in reading about them is that those aren't the people I want to hang out with. And reading a story can mean hanging out with them for hours on end. I don't mind when people have blind spots - we all have those to some extent - but I don't like to read stories where supposed adults are acting like spoiled brats. I really feel like secondary characters are important in even the shortest stories if only because they let us see a different side of the main characters. But I agree that they need to be fully fleshed out, which can be tricky given that you don't want to spend too much page time on them. But few of us live on a desert island with only our true love for company, so having a few other people around seems important. But then, my first draft problem is always too many people, not too few. I'm always throwing people out of the boat during my initial edits.
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Go for it, Jordan!
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The only legal way to kill my neighbors and anyone else who pisses me off. Lack of realism = plausible deniability."
Ha! I think you're right though. I think it's autobiography creeping into the MS.
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This makes me laugh so hard. My dad's side of the family is all Scandinavian and honestly you've got to pry words out of them with a kro-bar. Even about dinner.
"Did you like the pie I made?"
"I love pie."
"What about that pie?"
"Any pie." Fork continues going in and out of mouth. "Got coffee?"
And so silence ensues for the next half hour while pie eating continues unabated.
Nicole wrote: "Anne wrote: "(I) Belong to a race of people (Norwegians that is) who never talk about emotions if they can avoid it, this goes for almost all the men at least, "This makes me laugh so hard. My da..."
Just so ;)
Lou wrote: "I like reading secondary characters that feel fleshed-out, give me the sense they have past, life outside of the story, even without telling me all about it. What I don't like is when they are flat..."I really loved that movie, with Meryl Streep as a country singer, it was from a real radio show, wasn't it? But to me those people are American, but maybe from Norwegian stock?
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This makes me laugh so hard. My da..."
Anne and Nicole, this sounds so familiar! LOL. :)
Wow, so many interesting thoughts about secondary characters in this discussion! I really enjoyed reading all of your posts.
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Q&A with Josh Lanyon
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When you write about detectives in your stories, do you research or do you write from personal experience?
I'm doing research for a detective character I want to write. I recently finished reading David Simon's Homicide and now I'm reading Miles Corwin's Homicide Special.
Any books you recommend?