Q&A with Josh Lanyon discussion
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Writing Questions for Josh
Josh what network are the watching Sherlock on? When I checked the TV guide it had ABBey something on Sunday.
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Hey there, Murphy!
Sherlock isn't playing here yet -- it's still Downtown Abbey on my local PBS station.
I'm relying heavily on romance novel stereotypes for my WIP, which up until now has had a lot to do with tropes. Now, though, I'm trying to work in some standard plot devices, like The Dark Moment or the Big Mis, but I need suggestions for others. You'd think I'd know these off the top of my head, but I keep blanking...Anyone?
L.C. wrote: "Is this maybe what you're looking for? http://www.mybooktherapy.com/romance/..."
Sort of, but those aren't recognizabe terms, necessarily. Like, you can't say, "Oh, and then this book used the 'Why or Why Not' plot device," and expect whoever you're talking to to understand you, know what I mean?
Anne wrote: "I'm relying heavily on romance novel stereotypes for my WIP, which up until now has had a lot to do with tropes. Now, though, I'm trying to work in some standard plot devices, like The Dark Moment ..."Did you check out TV tropes already?
Charming wrote: "Anne wrote: "I'm relying heavily on romance novel stereotypes for my WIP, which up until now has had a lot to do with tropes. Now, though, I'm trying to work in some standard plot devices, like The..."I haven't yet. I thought of it, but forgot to. Thanks!
It may have been asked before, but do you use outlines at all? And also, long hand or word processor? I feel like I can't accomplish anything with a computer in front of me. Too many distractions.
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Hmmm, that's something to consider. I confess there is something very organic about writing longhand. I don't self edit as much. Of course, probably half of what I write doesn't make it to the transcription, but at least long hand I at least write something. So, when people ask "how many words do you write a day?" I give them a bit of a blank stare first and after I recover from the shock I give them a very uneducated estimate.
I have finish Irregulars and I must say I like it a lot. I have a bit of an inkling question though.It was mention that Rake has barbed member in his demon form. Doesn't it damage Archer internally? Or he heal fast because of the fae blood?
Also, it was good that I was reading near a computer so I can google many things from the story to know what the heck they were :P
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I used to outline a lot more. And I still outline for novel-length stories.
I really do recommend outlines for new writers. It's not like the outline has to use bullet points and Roman numerals. I just think it really helps to know where the story is headed. I hear writers fret that it will take all the excitement and surprise out of the work, but the outline is just that. It's a road map. It's not a contract signed in blood. It doesn't mean you can't follow inspiration -- writing is an organic process, so many better ideas occur along the way, but again having already thought of the initial idea gives you the freedom to come up with a second, better idea.
I used to write longhand. In fact, it took me a long time to make the move to writing directly to my desktop. And then it took me a while to move to working on my laptop -- at that point I'd stopped using any kind of hardcopy crutch.
I think part of my feeling was unease that I was a sub-conscious unease that I wearing the computer out while it waited for me to come up with the next line. :-) Eventually I forgot all about the computer and just focused on crafting the story.
I do think there are advantages to long hand. I did a lot of rewriting when I would transfer the text from paper to computer. But then again I've streamlined much of my process and my thinking -- the more you do something, the faster and more efficient you get at it. So my process would have adapted anyway.
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I second that motion. I had to limit my internet time to mornings and evenings in order to get anything done. The internet is a curse as far as distractions.
Josh wrote: "I had to limit my internet time to mornings and evenings in order to get anything done. The internet is a curse as far as distractions."I notice this when something is not working and I have to get my mail online. Then I check my mails much less often.
Normally I see every incoming message and I tend to answer at once to all mails, private or business related, interrupting what I'm doing. Often this wouldn't be necessary.
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I notice this when something is not working an..."
I have to struggle with my instinct to deal with everything the instant it comes in.
For one thing, there are letter that are a pleasure to savor and consider -- and take time answering.
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My current WIP, I started with an outline. But after I wrote the initial draft, I realized that I needed to change A LOT of what had happened in the beginning of the novel. Yep, it takes time to rewrite, but I think my novel is that much better for it. I simply came out with a new outline based on what I currently had written and what I wanted to change about it. And now, I can finally say my WIP will soon be a Past WIP! Whoot!
Jordan wrote: "Don't recall if I said this, but I second outlines too. As Josh said, they are a road map, but if on my way to LA I decide to take a detour to Las Vegas, I can certainly do that. My current WIP, ..."
Congratulations on getting your story so far ahead, Jordan. I hope you finish it very soon. :)
About writing: I started with an outline, but I was getting really caught up on plot and I was disregarding the actual story. A friend of mine took a creative writing class in college and he lent me all of his notes and reading material when he found out I was struggling with the outline part, they've turned out to be really helpful.
I come from a *winces* fanfiction writing background and now that I am writing something original I recognize that 60% of the work is already done for a fanfiction writer. Most of what we do is to write on "premises", since the "story" of the character is already developed for us.
It was really humbling to find out that I am woefully ignorant about the writing process. I've been writing for years, but in the manner in which I was writing I was only getting the tips of my toes wet. I wasn't really plunging into raw story telling.
Outlines don't have to be super structured, Vivian, and there are definitely people out there who are more pantsers than outliners (I'm definitley more in the pantser category, but I still have a basic outline, like Josh said). I have a few plot points in my head or on paper, and I write from one point to the next, OR I write a scene that pops into my head and then go back in the story and write toward it.Also, we have lots of former fanfic writers floating around, so you aren't alone by any means. :-)
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.."
There's nothing wrong with a fan fiction background. At one point -- and maybe it's still true -- the vast majority of writers and publishers in this genre came from a fan fiction background.
There are separate issues, but the fact that someone started out in fan fiction isn't a problem.
So no wincing allowed!
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..."
Yep. A lot of m/m writers have developed something I think of as a "slash" voice. That's because slash writers are influenced heavily by their preeminent peers in the same way that the Impressionists were influenced by Manet and Monet and so on.
So many of them have a similar "voice" -- which is fascinating given that they are often writing in largely disparate fandoms.
You don't see it so much in the writers who came out of the Hornblower fandom, for example, given that they're writing historical fiction. Although if you were IN the Hornblower fandom, you might notice a similarity of style and voice.
But you know, everyone has to start somewhere. And we all learn by emulating the writers we most admire.
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I've got a fanfic background, but I can look at what I wrote and trace how it changed and got better over the years, which is pretty cool. And in the later years I started changing a lot of things about the fandom I was writing in, so it was almost like I was writing original work. Almost. Though most of what I was drawing from was still created by someone else. lol, that was my unsubtle cue to leave fandom and write my own stuff.
You don't see it so much in the writers who came out of the Hornblower fandom, for example, given that they're writing historical fiction. Although if you were IN the Hornblower fandom, you might notice a similarity of style and voice.But you know, everyone has to start somewhere. And we all learn by emulating the writers we most admire. ."
What's Hornblower? :D
And I love your mysteries. They are so much fun to figure out. They are the equivalent of a puzzle in book form, but I doubt that I'll ever be able to write a good one. I can just hope to emulate how well you give voice to your characters. Really, your style is so far above what you generally find in the genre that I find it hard to read other writers of m/m romance since I expect to find writing of your caliber or above. Of course, I am sure there are great writers out there, but I am new to the mainstream genre (I read fanfiction for many years) and I have not found many -- Harper Fox being an exception, I think she is up there in the stratosphere with you.
Charming wrote: "Present tense."I was just thinking that the other day when I was indulging in a little fanfic. Almost everything seems to be written in 3rd person present tense.
Charming wrote: "Present tense."Hmm.. I haven't read any present tense books, but I do notice a lot of flashbacks, a lot more than in mainstream books.
Josh wrote: "Yep. A lot of m/m writers have developed something I think of as a "slash" voice. "I too would like you to expound on this. I realize that might be asking a lot (sometimes it's hard to put one's finger on what makes something recognizable), but it's an interesting observation. Maybe like the way teen slang and intonations can ricochet around the country at warp speed, making my niece in TX sound just like the kids here on the east coast.
Charming wrote: "Present tense."
Ugh. *shiver* Is that where that nasty habit came from? (well, *I* hate it, anyway).
I like present tense for very short pieces, especially retrospective musings. I wrote a Big Bang fic in present tense once, purely because I'd written two short fics before it and felt the follow-on should be in the same tense. I did struggle a bit with making it flow and I've vowed not to do it again :D
There's a present tense trend in literary fiction. I tend to dislike it. It always sounds to me like those creepy golf game narrators.
IDK why I don't like it, I just don't. I can handle it occasionally though.
I wrote a very short piece using present tense and second person narrative. It was supposed to be a sort of internal monologue with flashbacks. I thought it was challenging and perhaps not my best effort to date. Regardless, it was a lot of fun to write.
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Yes. Definitely favored by fan fiction writers.
Well, partly because publishers frown on it.
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Can you elaborate? I came from fanfic, but I'm only familiar with one fandom. I recall stylistic sim..."
Hmm. It's hard to pinpoint. I would say Dani Alexander is someone who writes in a fan fictiony voice. I don't know if she ever wrote fan fiction or where she picked that up, but it is the classic promising-fan-fic- writer voice.
I'd have to read her more carefully to narrow down the word choices and why that voice is a "slash" voice versus a gay fiction voice.
This is not to say one is better or worse than the other. It's totally about voice and style. We are all heavily influenced by what we read -- especially in the years before we break out and begin writing our own stories.
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I agree about Harper. She's got a very distinct voice. It's not to everyone's taste -- she's definitely not writing for the Siren crowd, if you know what I mean. :-D
I come from a mystery writing tradition. I didn't discover fan fiction until I'd been published for a couple of years. But may I say, I ADORE fan fiction! Well, in my teeny tiny fandom.
It didn't influence me, though, because I was already locked in to whatever my own "voice" is. Kind of...Georgette Heyer Meets Joseph Hansen Meets Felix the Cat. :-D
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Hmm.. I haven't read any present tense books, but I do notice a lot of flashbacks, a lot more than in mainstream books."
You won't see a lot of present tense because readers don't like it, therefore publishers squelch it.
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You know what? You're someone who writes very well in present tense. But -- going to be blunt here -- most people don't do it well.
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It's only in the most pretentious of literary fiction. Not the stuff that actually sells.
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Some writers do it well. Harper Fox does it well (although I believe she's had to cut it out of every book where she's tried to use it.)
It just, for whatever reason, doesn't go down well with a lot of readers. Instead of the sense of immediacy it's intended to create, it creates a consciousness, an awareness of the writer, of Craft. And of course the aim in storytelling is to swallow the reader whole.
There are readers who have great difficulty with first person POV too, so you have to remember that readers can be finicky critters.
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It makes for great writing exercises.
It's not like no one should ever use these techniques. It's just that if you do use them you have to be prepared for an unfavorable reaction. Publishers don't like it because they believe readers (en large) don't like it.
But growing as a writer means taking chances and pushing boundaries. Not that you necessarily want to try and sell all your writing exercises, but that doesn't mean you should practice and experiment.
Josh wrote: "Hambel wrote: "I like present tense for very short pieces, especially retrospective musings. I wrote a Big Bang fic in present tense once, purely because I'd written two short fics before it and fe..."I have the opinion that the sign that you do it right is when the readers don't even notice what tense you use. For me, the story is what matters. If the structure or anything else distract you from the story, then you do it wrong. That's why I don't like literary stuff in general. But the thing I hate most is second person POV. OMG! You can't pay me to read a whole novel with it.
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I agree. Good writing is largely invisible. Not that excellent lines or striking images don't stand out, but the tricks of the trade don't poke the reader in the eye.
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It was mention that Rake has barbed member in his demon form. Doesn't it damage Archer interna..."
I thought I'd responded to this -- it's in the Green Glass Beads forum:
Here's my answer, Pete -
perhaps in sex the barbs soften so they're more like the bristles on a bottle brush. And when the demon is angry or fighting, they're sharp and hard, like razors.
Josh wrote: "Pete wrote: "I have finish Irregulars and I must say I like it a lot. I have a bit of an inkling question though.It was mention that Rake has barbed member in his demon form. Doesn't it damage A..."
Ouwwwiiieee!!!
Second person seems like a contrarian choice because it usually comes out of someone hearing that you can only write in first and third and saying, "oh yeah?" And then we read it and tend to say, "well, yeah."
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And then we read it and tend to say,..."
Some writers can make it all but invisible.
I am not one of them.
Some writers can make it all but invisible.I am not one of them.
I thought you did a good job weaving the bits of second person narrative and third person in Come Unto These Yellow Sands. My absolute favorite of the books you've written (and I have read).
Josh wrote: "Instead of the sense of immediacy it's intended to create, it creates a consciousness, an awareness of the writer, of Craft. And of course the aim in storytelling is to swallow the reader whole. "As much as I hate to admit to being 'average' or 'typical' (heh) I'd have to say that this describes my aversion to it quite well. What I've always said is that it keeps me skimming along the surface of the story, like my brain *knows* it isn't happening in the now, so it just can't suspend disbelief. It makes me constantly aware of the non-reality, and thus makes the writing very self-conscious to me. I cannot sink in.
That, IMO is why it can work well in flashbacks (that are supposed to be a little surreal) as well as in short stories that are meant to keep me on edge.
Oh also wanted to say, in response to the writing longhand vs computer-- that I, too, used to need to write longhand first, then transfer to computer to edit. Don't do that anymore, write straight on my PC, but the evolution was natural, never conscious or forced. My sense is that a writer should do what keeps their juices flowing (I know... "DUH"). Every once in a while, I do still feel the need to pick up a pen and write out a hairy scene long-hand. It isn't so much that I need the pen though, as much as I need something to jar me out of familiar tracks. Doesn't ever last long though, as these days, I get writer's cramp after only a page of scrawl. :D
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I am not one of them.
I thought you did a good job weaving the bits of second person narrative and third person in Come Unto These Yellow Sands. My a..."
Well, that's because the CYOA books are all second person, so it was easy to parody them. :-)
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..."
I should clarify that I just happened to be looking at one of her excerpts, which is why her name sprang to mind. Not a criticism, not anything, really. It just happened that for once someone asked a question when I actually had an example handy!
I just checked my writing on my personal site... All my Buffy/Angel fanfic is in present tense, while all my Harry Potter fanfic is in past tense...
I also checked my original snippets posted there, and that seems to be a mishmash of both (not in one story, obviously).
So, at some point I felt more comfortable writing present tense, but I write predominantly past tense.
I couldn't even say whether it was a conscious decision to write one or the other, let alone what the reason was.
Was I good at it? No idea, ppl would have to read my stuff to judge that lol
Not sure I'll ever go back to present tense, but there are a lot of things I thought I'd never do in writing, and I keep proving myself wrong, so... never say never.
sorry for my long absence... I'll try not to disappear for so long again...
ps: when I say ALL... I wrote 6 Buffy/Angel fics and 7 HP fics... so it's not that extensive...
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Q&A with Josh Lanyon
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So, I'm finding myself these days more interested in writing plot and character than romance."
That's cool, Lou. I'm good at creating characters, (or so my friends say), but absolutely sucks at plotting. :(