Q&A with Josh Lanyon discussion
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Writing Questions for Josh
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I forgot I wanted to see that again! Thanks for the reminder.
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A certain amount of sameness is inevitable -- I remember reading John Irving on the topic of sameness because he too was called out for reusing the same themes and dynamics over and over again.
I tend to think that the readers who find it a problem are those jsut not that thrilled with our work in general. So of course they find these endless explorations and patterns ditchwater dull. They weren't impressed to start with.
And, fair enough, there are some authors who just keep writing the same plots and characters over and over. There are one trick ponies, and that's a fact.
But in general branding yourself as a writer of amateur sleuth mysteries or hard boiled adventure or supersweet romance is not going to be a bad thing -- for the same reason that chain restaurants are successful. If the product is a good one and enough people like it, you will be successful by sticking to what works. I don't go to my favorite French restaurant for fast food. And if they suddenly took it into their minds that they needed to compete with the fast food franchises and started cranking out burgers, I'd be bewildered and unhappy.
As writers we cannot be all things to all readers. I cannot be fast food stories. And while I appreciate that the fast food market is way bigger than the French cuisine market, I can only write what I like to eat.
Um...if you know what I mean. :-D
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What I think that's really about is a reader looking for Adrien, hoping for Adrien, and comparing the characters to Adrien -- and thus finding them wanting. Because while, yes, most every character I write will have a certain similarity (they all came out of my brain and are thus limited to what I can conceive) every character is not Adrien. Not remotely.
So I think the disappointment is actually the reader (perhaps unconsciously) hoping for something I just can't provide. Have zero interest in providing, to be honest.
Josh wrote: "Jorrie wrote: "But the "sameness" evidently didn't hold me back from enjoying her work and wanting more. (Other authors, yeah, that can happen.) ..."
A certain amount of sameness is inevitable..."
I think that's one of the best reasons for a pseudonym if you write in more than one genre. It's only fair to your readers to give them some indication that the story they're about to read is similar to one they liked before.
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That happens to me too.
The weirdest thing though -- and I am guilty of this myself, so I wish I did understand it -- is how I can so love certain books by someone but not even give their other work a chance. What is that about? It's frustrating as a writer, but I'm totally guilty of it myself as a reader.
The thing is all authors have ticks; little unconscious patterns that become more obvious as they write more stories, or as I read more of their work. It can be reoccurring plot elements, certain phrasing, favorite words, underlying themes, character dynamics, lots of stuff.
Sometimes those "mannerisms" don't bother me at all (Georgette Heyer, for instance, who I've been reading and rereading for 40 years), sometimes they make an author feel stale but I'll still read them (Bujold), or they get so irritating I don't even like anything they've ever written any more (Mary Balogh).
I suspect some of the people who see Adrien in every Josh Lanyon book are really just falling somewhere on that irritation spectrum.
Sometimes those "mannerisms" don't bother me at all (Georgette Heyer, for instance, who I've been reading and rereading for 40 years), sometimes they make an author feel stale but I'll still read them (Bujold), or they get so irritating I don't even like anything they've ever written any more (Mary Balogh).
I suspect some of the people who see Adrien in every Josh Lanyon book are really just falling somewhere on that irritation spectrum.
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I'm sure that's true for some. But given the pressure to keep writing AE, I'm also sure that some of it is simply unconscious disappointment that more characters aren't more like AE.
Yeah, well, you and Arthur Conan Doyle. Just don't try killing him off as a way of escaping the reader pressure. ;-D
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As much as I admire, even envy Renault's writing, I admit nothing moved me like TC. Nor do I re-read anything (except for Last of the Wine) with any regularity. But what an amazing writer. Such beautiful writing, such powerful emotions. But yet...
So sometimes it's just a perfect combination of elements and nothing else quite clicks the same way. Sometimes the brand loyalty is the author and sometimes to a particular book/series.
Unless you're just a huge mega bestseller with one book or series (JK Rowling) successful writing careers are built on author loyalty -- and that's also what allows you to take a few chances (even if those experiments flop, comparatively speaking) because you can count on a percentage of readers who will buy whatever you write. As long as you don't start disappointing them on a regular basis.
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No camping trips to the Reichenbach Falls then.
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Went to see promo efforts of Jo Myles. Ended up reading excerpt. Decided to read Barging In.
So I guess the efforts are pretty successful, since I am now buying a book.
Writing style seemed readable plus I'm curious about narrowboat culture.
Josh wrote: "I'm sure that's true for some. But given the pressure to keep writing AE, I'm also sure that some of it is simply unconscious disappointment that more characters aren't more like AE."I think that when you discover an author and you are in awe of their writing and stories, you're also probably trying to feel that moment of wonder again in their other books.
I have no problems re-reading the same story with little differences again and again (a change in the names of the characters is sometimes enough).
Josh wrote: "Jorrie wrote: "I mean, I really need to read more of Renault than The Charioteer, for example. And yet, I haven't."As much as I admire, even envy Renault's writing, I admit nothing moved me like TC..."
I loved The Persian Boy too.
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It's startling how many classics, how many wonderful books in general are not ebooks yet. I was looking for books for my mother's kindle this holiday. No Mary Stewart and no Phyllis A. Whitney!
Josh wrote: "Jorrie wrote: "I need to read The Persian Boy. It would help if her books were available as ebooks, I'll admit."It's startling how many classics, how many wonderful books in general are not ebo..."
Josh - check out google e-books - I'm not sure if it's the same Mary Stewart, but I found some of her work on their site.
eta: and this: http://www.phyllisawhitney.com/main_p... --oops - only audio....
Jorrie wrote: "I need to read The Persian Boy. It would help if her books were available as ebooks, I'll admit."My library has all of hers in their system.
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It's startling how many classics, how many wonderful books in general ..."
I saw those audio books! Which is great, but my mom has a fairly new Kindle and I wanted to stock it up for her with the stuff she loves.
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It was cute, though ..."
Most definitely. That whole, writer job not being as respected, is one of my pet peeves. Especially because I have family who wants to read my work. I don't want to know what they'd think, but if I don't let them see it, then it's like writing is just a "hobby" and I'm not serious about it, when I am.
I've got a friend in a similar situation. He works special effects for HUGE movies. We're talking Pirates of the Caribbean here, but his parents think it's just a hobby, that he still hasn't found a real job yet. lol. It's crazy. But he loves the job, and it sounds like a ton of fun. He keeps telling all these stories about meeting celebrities, and there are a lot that are funny. I could tell a few, but I'll keep my storytelling in check.
I did watch Wonder Boys and that was definitely a movie for writers! lol. And you know what? I'm blaming you for the dream I had the next morning where I was hanging out with Toby McGuire and he was all over me, but then confessed he was gay, while two guys were literally going at it completely naked nearby. It was odd, for sure! lol. But a good movie, no doubt about it.
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I fall asleep to books on tape, so I only have them for when I can't sleep at night. lol.
I'm afraid I'll get a little sameness in my works, but maybe not too much, since I do like a wide variety of things in my own reading. We'll just have to see.
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Right now, I've got 2-3 povs (the 2 MCs and the video diaries of the villain), and I'm wondering how many is acceptable, and if it's cool to add in one more mid-novel, well past the middle, and only put it in once or twice. I've always thought that was a bad thing to do, but I've read books where it's been done and it wasn't that bad at all.
What's your thoughts Josh? Thanks.
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Generally speaking, inserting a POV merely for convenience's sake is not going to fly.
But at the same time having dramatic scenes happen off-stage is usually not going to fly either.
But you can more easily get away with describing the dramatic scene to the protag than you can suddenly popping in another view point, and in certain cases a dramatic scene is not necessarily crucial. It depends on a variety of other factors.
I would suggest -- and that's all it is since I don't know the story -- that you stick to the existing viewpoints but really ratchet up the emotional intensity of finding the body, etc.
Jordan, I got a lot of complaints for adding in those two new POV characters at the end of my book. I thought it was foreshadowing but most people just saw it as a cheat for showing the action. Shows what I know. LOL
Hm... Ok, I'm having trouble with sequence and backstory building. So, flashback, good or bad? So my story sequence goes like this:Chapter 1. present
2. flashback
3. present (with some action)
4. present
5. flashback
6 - end. present
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Cleon, without knowing much about the story here, I'd say that sounds fine to me, but I would have to actually read it, I think, to be able to say more.
Cleon wrote: "Hm... Ok, I'm having trouble with sequence and backstory building. So, flashback, good or bad? So my story sequence goes like this:Chapter 1. present
2. flashback
3. present (with some action)
4...."
I can't speak in general. I have two stories that do a simple version. (beginning in the present, long flashback in the middle, end in the present) Lots of people liked it, a few specifically said no extended flashbacks.
Question for Josh and everyone else: my Samhain editor wants to post an excerpt from my upcoming book. With MLR that has always been the first chapter, but this editor wants to post a chunk from about 20% into the story. It's a GFY and this is the scene where the two guys first realize their attraction so it has some plot importance and it's also probably my favorite scene from the book. To me, it feels like those annoying movie trailers that pull out the funniest bits from a movie and make the movie itself a little less fun. But I suppose those are good marketing tools. I never read an excerpt that isn't the beginning of the book. What do you think about this? She needs my OK to post it.
I remember having read excerpts taken from somewhere in a book. I can't tell you if it happened only when the publishing house posted an excerpt and the author had another excerpt in his/her homepage (I love when this happens, because I get two excerpts ;-), but it is not absolutely unusual.
Seems to me that the excerpt should be something really good so it entices people to buy. Obviously you don't want a scene from the end of the book - but anything in the first quarter seems like fair game to me. If you think it's your best scene then maybe it's the one you should use to rope in readers.
When the excerpt is the first chapter I tend to skip it when I read the whole book. That's never a good start. So maybe a scene from somewhere in the first quarter, like Dev said, could make a reader even more curious because you want to know how they got there.
Calathea wrote: "When the excerpt is the first chapter I tend to skip it when I read the whole book. That's never a good start. So maybe a scene from somewhere in the first quarter, like Dev said, could make a read..."And maybe when the reader gets to that section it will feel like meeting an old friend.
Thanks for the input - I'm really on the fence but you are making me see the positives to it. Hm.
the excerpt for 'the forester' is actually the last scene of the first chapter. I like that Saundra chose that one, because it does involve all three MCs and paints their background/conflict a bit as well.
I get what Calathea says. I have that tendency as well, because I get that 'oh, I read this already' feeling, and then I tend to skip it.
And I like what Dev said about getting to the excerpt part feeling like meeting an old friend.
But I think what you need to look at is, whether this scene in particular works for you. Ask them why they chose it to help you decide. See if there is another scene you think might work better ...
Does that help?
Blaine D. wrote: "the excerpt for 'the forester' is actually the last scene of the first chapter. I like that Saundra chose that one, because it does involve all three MCs and paints their background/conflict a bit..."
If I'm not doing first chapter then yes, this works. Thanks all for the input.
Cleon wrote: "Hm... Ok, I'm having trouble with sequence and backstory building. So, flashback, good or bad? So my story sequence goes like this:Chapter 1. present
2. flashback
3. present (with some action)
4...."
I think it partly depends on what you're using the flashbacks for. If you're showing us past experiences, past events, then I don't think it should be a problem. But if the flashbacks are more backstory (infodump?) then I'm not sure.
As long as you have a good balance between backstory and action in the flashbacks, you should be all right.
As for good or bad?
Personally, I'd rather learn of a past experience through a flashback, than having it spelt out to me in a dialogue or retelling.
Blaine D. wrote: "Cleon wrote: "Hm... Ok, I'm having trouble with sequence and backstory building. So, flashback, good or bad? So my story sequence goes like this:Chapter 1. present
2. flashback
3. present (with s..."
Thanks, Blaine. The flashback is for key experiences in the past. So I guess, it's good to use flashback for them.
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Chapter 1. present
2. flashback
3. present (with some action)
4...."
It's hard to know without reading the story. Is this a story with twin arcs? So that we're getting a past story and it somehow intertwines with the present day story, and the resolution of the past story is what makes the resolution of the present time story possible?
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Unless you're doing a story where time travel IS the story, the reader considers the present day time/story line to be the "real" story and the flashabacks, no matter how crucial or interesting, to be...flashbacks. Backstory. So there's always an unconscious pushing for you to get back to telling the "real" story.
The big danger is if the most interesting story is the past -- the flashbacks.
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I used to think only the first chapters were of any use to a reader, but I've gradually changed my mind about that. So long as it's easy for the reader to get the gist of the scene, I think it's fine to take it out of sequence.
Josh wrote: "I used to think only the first chapters were of any use to a reader, but I've gradually changed my mind about that. So long as it's easy for the reader to get the gist of the scene, I think it's fine to take it out of sequence...."
Thanks. I think I'll do it, since the editor wants to. The scene is clear, I think, and not too spoilery.
Josh wrote: "It's hard to know without reading the story. Is this a story with twin arcs? So that we're getting a past story and it somehow intertwines with the present day story, and the resolution of the past story is what makes the resolution of the present time story possible? "Not really a twin acrs, no. The story starts with an established relationship so the flashback is more how the pair got to the point they are now.
Kaje wrote: "Question for Josh and everyone else: my Samhain editor wants to post an excerpt from my upcoming book. With MLR that has always been the first chapter, but this editor wants to post a chunk from ..."Reader's perspective here. When I started buying m/m, I remember being surprised that all of the excerpts were from Chapter 1. I'd never seen that before. I can't give you examples, but I know that before m/m, I always *expected* an excerpt to throw me into a juicy part of the story (they were never nearly as LONG as these are either).
Anyway, I personally don't like Chapter 1 excerpts. They are often dull, and I don't trust that they give me a sense of the 'average' passage. In fact, often they are sort of 'prologuey' which gives me no sense of the story at all. I much prefer an excerpt from a cool bit in the middle. That it will be one of the best I take for granted, and adjust my expectations accordingly.
Edit: and yes to what Dev said, it is fun to 'reach' the passage. Like an easter egg. :)
I can totally see someone having the reverse opinion as me, just letting you know that the pref for in-middle-excerpts exists and is common outside of m/m (or maybe romance? Whatever).
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On my sidebar here at GR was an ad for a book called Spell Caster.
There were THREE typos/errors in a one sentence ad. I pop over to the web page and the self-pubbed author has rated his book 2 stars. His OWN book is rated 2 stars.So I think this is obviously a joke and I pop over to Amazon and see that it's an Xlibris title selling for $15.ish.
Now maybe it is a joke, but I'm thinking maybe it's not.
Either way, do I even have to comment on how many promotional and marketing errors there are in this scenario?
Josh wrote: "So despite my vow not to type anymore today, I have to comment on this.On my sidebar here at GR was an ad for a book called Spell Caster.
There were THREE typo..."Well, it got your interest, so maybe it's not so erroneous after all. :D
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On my sidebar here at GR was an ad for a book called Spell Caster.
There were..."True. But getting my interest as a subject for a DO NOT DO THIS post is not the same as convincing me to buy the book.
Wild horses would not convince me to buy that book now because I'm halfway convinced it's either a joke or written by a moron.
Despite what you hear, all publicity is not good publicity. Think of the writers whose name fills you with instant antagonism (yes, I'm one of them for some people) ;-P
If there are enough people turned off by your name alone, that's not going to work out well for you. Name recognition, at least in a small genre where people can remember WHY they know your name, is not always a good thing.
Josh wrote: "Cleon wrote: "Josh wrote: "So despite my vow not to type anymore today, I have to comment on this.On my sidebar here at GR was an ad for a book called Spell Caster. [bookcover:Spell Caster|1317..."
I know what you mean. Pretending to be nice when you're really not doesn't work either. But hey, some people are so desperate for attention they do anything to get attention. I think it's similar to some people who do stupid dangerous thing so that they can film it and post it on Youtube for the whole world to see.
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Josh wrote: "So despite my vow not to type anymore today, I have to comment on this.On my sidebar here at GR was an ad for a book called Spell Caster.
There were THREE typo..."That is completely confusing. I can't figure out why anyone would do that, either... An experiment to see if anyone buys it? IDK.
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Q&A with Josh Lanyon
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It was cute, though the ending was ..."
It's really more about the journey to becoming a writer, isn't it? And part of that is using everything that happens to us -- and that happens to those around us -- as grist for the mill. And also it's about letting go of other's expectations for us and our own expectations for who we think we should be.
Becoming a fulltime writer is rarely seen as the mature, responsible choice. ;-)