Q&A with Josh Lanyon discussion
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Writing Questions for Josh
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Glad to hear that you got it. But I must say that the crucial thing is actually doing some of the exercises in the book. Normally I am not particularly a fan of exercises, but these are really amazing in terms of helping a writer grasp prose and the mechanisms at work therein. Great leaps in sophistication are possible to the dedicated student. Isn't there some sort of m/m writing group all y'all are in? Maybe you can try doing some of them together.
Nicole wrote: "Eve wrote: "but have flipped through LeGuin's and it looks great. Very usable, if that makes sense. So thanks! :) "Glad to hear that you got it. But I must say that the crucial thing is actually ..."
Yeah, we're part of writing group. I'm in 2 actually, but we're usually too busy with our own projects and talk about whatnot. But I think this sort of exercise will really benefit us. As I can't get my hand on the book, could any of you with the book describe a little what kind of exercise should we do?
I already did the first one. :) Once, anyway. I think it's worth playing with from time to time. That's the one about putting words together to *sound* good, playing with them like music (my words, not hers).I like exercises as long as:
1) they seem worthwhile (these do)
2) they aren't too time-consuming (which shouldn't be the case, but at this age, I've learned to recognize and work around my more stubborn failings)-- these are short-page style exercises.
3) they don't make me feel more stooopid that when I started. :) So far, so good.
I'm not a member of this m/m writing group (I couldn't offer the commitment, and didn't want to drop the ball on people). But yeah, if a (small) group of people got the book and wanted to work through them with me, that'd be fun. They also look cool to do alone.
@Lou -- I'm a huge scifi buff, and have to say that while I have the utmost respect for LeGuin as a writer, her stories end up annoying me. Too heavy-handed moralizing of a style for my tastes (even though I agree with her stances). But that is a taste thing -- no questioning her skill, and am happy to learn from a master.
I could really benefit from something like this - I'm a totally seat-of-the-pants writer right now, and need to learn some craft, I think. But with NaNo and all the stories I'm juggling right now (3 novels and 2 shorts in editing, although I'll be done with one IF MY EDITOR WOULD SEND ME THE FREAKING PROOFS ALREADY IF SHE WANTS THEM BACK BY WEDNESDAY ... oops, sorry, got carried away.) Anyway, I do think it could be fun to do them as a group, maybe next month?
Cleon. Hmm. Part of the good is in reading the chapter beforehand. Not saying it wouldn't be cool to still do, and that you wouldn't get something out of it, but you might find it frustrating to not sort of have the point of the exercise solidly in mind.But the exercises themselves are fairly easily explained, yeah.
Kaje: One of the beauties of these is that one could commit to say, meeting on-line one evening a week for an hour or so. I *think* (I've only looked at a couple) that most are designed to be written inside of thirty-ish minutes, and then shared and talked about.
Lou: I still love Octavia. Such a luscious writer. But yes, I know what you mean. One thing I have NOT done is go back and read my favorite novels again after having spent 2-3 years really honing my writing skills. I think that would be an interesting thing. Maybe I'd find I didn't like them so well anymore, finding all of the problems. But I suspect that I'd often appreciate more fully just what it is they do *right* that I like.
Yes. I am assigning myself that homework over the next few months. Time to reread me some Cherryh and Zelazny. :D And Donaldson, and... :)... Not a hardship, I've missed them.
I could handle an hour a week, sure. Well, if it gets organized count me in.
I've also been looking at doing the exercises in Steering the Craft. It would be fun to do them with a group, as long as it's after nano. November is looking rather... busy.
Mod
No digital for that one, huh?
Well, the first exercise is about sound and being gorgeous. So what you do is write a paragraph, 150-300 words that is meant to be read aloud and uses onomatopoeia, alliteration, repetition, rhythm, made-up words or names and any other sound effect EXCEPT rhyme and meter.
Her examples of use of sound in writing included The Celebrated Jumping From of Calaveras County by Mark Twain as well as Gertrude Stein's Susie Asado and Rudyard Kipling's How the Whale Got His Throat.
The second exercise is to write a paragraph to a page 150-300 words with absolutely no punctuation or breaks of any kind, then one week later, go back and punctuate it and see what how the piece has changed.
Nicole wrote: "Cleon wrote: "As I can't get my hand on the book, could any of you with the book describe a little what kind of exercise should we do?"No digital for that one, huh?
Well, the first exercise is ..."
Cool! Now the next step is to persuade my writing buddies to do the exercise. :D
So... guys? What do you think?
I'm game for one a week; If we're going to, though, we need someone to post the description of the exercise for the week, and have a place to post and discuss the results. I'm not up to being a moderator for that. But if someone else is, I'll be in there for (most of) the exercises.
I got a copy at my local library and liked it well enough I just ordered it from Amazon. They have a bunch of used copies at $4.57 as well as new copies.
Kaje wrote: "I'm game for one a week; If we're going to, though, we need someone to post the description of the exercise for the week, and have a place to post and discuss the results. I'm not up to being a mo..."Maybe we can do it after Nano.
Absolutely. Or when everyone has a little time. (Not like we're going to stop writing any time soon - it will still be worthwhile a month from now.)
After NaNo sounds fab.It's on my wishlist, and my Bday isn't till 22 december ... if any of my friends will buy it, that is ... (Or I will after my Bday)
After Nano is good. Not doing nano this year, but November is always bad for me. December starts to improve.I've never done things like this with a group, it sounds like fun. :)
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Just jumping in to say that I'm over at Jessewave's blogging about creating villains today if anybody is interested. (I'm looking at you, Cleon. :P )
http://www.reviewsbyjessewave.com/201...
Nicole wrote: "Hi there!Just jumping in to say that I'm over at Jessewave's blogging about creating villains today if anybody is interested. (I'm looking at you, Cleon. :P )
http://www.reviewsbyjessewave.com/2..."
I know, Nicole. I hope I can create a kick ass villain, not just a jealous naked chick seducing a young gay sorcerer. LMAO!
I like that - food for thought (especially about rewriting if you find you've made a villain more interesting than your MC's - I think this is my issue with a number of mainstream romance/thrillers.)And my favorite bit: (view spoiler) I do hate illogical behavior from characters just to emphasize a character trait. Thanks for the post.
Btw, my favorite list ever! Things I'd Do if I Become an Evil Overlord.
http://bertc.com/subfour/truth/overlo...
ETA: and this is priceless: http://notalwaysright.com/be-sure-to-...
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You can do it. I believe in you.
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And thank you for reading it!
RE: Henchmen. More than a decade as a professional cook has taught me the value of the henchman.
Nicole wrote: "Cleon wrote: "I hope I can create a kick ass villain, not just a jealous naked chick seducing a young gay sorcerer. LMAO! "You can do it. I believe in you."
Thank you! Coming from you, it really really means a lot to me.
Mod
Things I'd Do if I Become an Evil Overlord."
Yeah, it is a laundry list of transparent plot contrivances, for sure.
This one is my favorite:
"98. If an attractive young couple enters my realm, I will carefully monitor their activities. If I find they are happy and affectionate, I will ignore them. However if circumstance have forced them together against their will and they spend all their time bickering and criticizing each other except during the intermittent occasions when they are saving each others' lives at which point there are hints of sexual tension, I will immediately order their execution."
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Aw shucks, now you make my shy.
RE: Kickass villains. Just remember that they are ultimately revealed to be responsible for the bad shit that happens in the story. So even events that seem to be unconnected to the villain at first... for example, an endless winter... are eventually revealed to be all part of the villain's master plan. The fact that nobody knows the villain is the villain at first is ALSO part of a master plan.
Basically, you've got to get a line on the master plan, then gradually allow the hero to, with great horror, discover it.
I liked that Nicole, thanks. I've had a pretty decent sense (I think) of what makes good (but not too good) villains, but you put it so clearly that it is bound to help my creation of them.Honestly, I don't write villains much. But I have a special love for the anti-hero in stories -- both reading and writing, so I especially chowed down on those hints that you gave on writing them well. :)
Mod
I think one of the great challenges of writing diverse characters is allowing them to be the villains. It's touchy because in old pulp fiction, people of diverse ethnic and cultural heritage were almost always the villains, which is obviously offensive -- but at the same time if we are to allow these characters to be fully realized and developed, it ultimately means allowing them to be the villains too.
Or does it?
Thoughts?
Well, I think so. But I also think whatever you do, someone is going to take exception to it. IMO, if your villain is from a - hm, call it 'minority group' in the interests of brevity - then some of your protagonists need to be from 'minority groups' also. For example, if you are writing a thriller about an attack by Muslim terrorists similar to 9/11, then all your villains are likely to be Muslims. In that case, I believe you should have at least one 'good guy' who is Muslim, also, if for no other reason than to avoid adding to the already overwhelming hatred towards that group.
Mod
IMO, if your villain is from a - hm, call it 'minority group' in the interests of brevity - then som..."
Good point.
Also, there are probably certain historical periods when randomly picking someone from a particular group -- muslims is a perfect example -- to be your villain is going to bad judgement or the sign of agenda.
Now if the plot is about the Middle East, okay, that's different. Or at least it might be different. But if the plot is murder in suburbia, and you just happen to pick the muslim neighbor to be the villain, then that becomes something entirely different.
In my opinion.
Interesting article!and I agree. If you feel the need to write them in, at least do your homework.
Lou wrote: "I seem to recall if there was a foreign woman in an Agatha Christie novel she always ended up being guilty of something."In her defense, it was a different time and value then. Conan Doyle was even worse. Remember the story about the "monkey man" from Asia?
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And Ridge is my protagonist, but he's a character that some readers will have trouble connecting to. So there's always that concern that you're perhaps disappointing the readers who've been pushing for more diversity.
Josh wrote: But if the plot is murder in suburbia, and you just happen to pick the muslim neighbor to be the villain, then that becomes something entirely different.In my opinion.
I agree.
As a writer (with, hopefully, readers) I feel a certain responsibility not to add to the already overwhelming hate so prevalent in our world, so I would be very careful to balance minority villains with minority heroes.
I'm not saying everyone should write this way - this is just what I need to feel comfortable with myself. And I agree that we need more diversified characters, as both heroes and villains.
Josh wrote: "The essay reminded me of some of the uncertainty of writing the character of Ridge in Just Desserts. Readers will request disabled characters or simply characters who aren't white and middleclass, ..."I finished Just Desserts last night. I liked Ridge - but then I've played Tug to far too many Ridges in my life (not physically disabled, but my sexual preference seems to be 'self-absorbed and disagreeable'). There are so many tricky issues about spinal disability and sexuality. I was impressed by the way that you integrated ALL his physical limitations and capabilities.
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..."
Thank you for noticing. Such a comparatively little story required major research time. But those characters really grew on me. I got very fond of both of them.
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your talk of Just Desserts is making it sound really good. Can't wait to check it out!
If there is a group reading Leguin and doing the exercises, I should join up too. Don't have the book... yet... although I can read the "in library use only" copy if I really had a mind to stay at work for extra time. lol. I might just buy it from Amazon if others are going to do it. And yeah, post-November would be better for me too. I'm still writing in December, but it's at my own pace, so that makes things more flexible.
Cleon, I wish there was an easier way for you to get books! You need someone in the states who can buy books and mail them to you. It would be a pain perhaps, but maybe it would help?
Jordan wrote: "lol, new books and stories just keep popping up... where on earth am I going to find the time to read them all? your talk of Just Desserts is making it sound really good. Can't wait to check it o..."
The shipping cost will still be about the same and I still have to pay tax for them.
Jordan wrote: "Awww fudge. I was hoping..."Thanks for the offer though. :)
Mod
I've also found a book on writing subtext into movies. I'm thinking of checking it out for myself in writing novels. I have a feeling I need more subtext in my writing perhaps. It's called Writing Subtext: What Lies Beneath by Linda Seger
I totally stumbled on that as a recommended book from Amazon along with The Writer's Guide to Psychology, which couldn't have come at a more perfect time as my character suffering from PTSD is about to go into his first therapy session.
... and I wasn't planning on buying any more books for awhile. Darn it! But these all look really useful!
Hi Jordan et al.,Re a group working through the exercises—I have a copy so I’ll chime in with some thoughts on your ideas (and more) to help us decide.
After you posted, I grabbed the book and looked over the first few exercises to get a sense for how they work. They are short. They do vary, but the standard format is 100-300 words of writing to then be shared with a group. In many cases read aloud, which we’ll of course be working around, but that’s the idea. I’ll quote from her introductory chapter (I’m typing this in, so forgive my laziness in replacing some bits with dots et al. and any type-o's are mine):
Many of the exercise pieces you write will be very short, no more than a paragraph to a page or so. This is necessary if you’re working in a group and reading your pieces aloud. Writing to a short, set length is also an excellent discipline in itself. Of course your piece can grow longer, later, if it leads you into something interesting and you go on working on it.
…
Exercise pieces don’t have to be highly finished; they don’t have to be deathless literature. If they lead you on towards something bigger, that’s grand. But to be successful as exercises, all they have to do is what the directions say to do.
If you’re working in a peer group, you might choose to write some of the exercises during the meeting (in-class writing). After discussion of the exercise, each person writes it. Half an hour is the absolute time-limit. Silence: scribble scribble scribble. {although some of them seem to be meant to take a little longer than this, not in terms of word-count so much as time investment. - Oco} Then each on reads their piece aloud in turn, hot off the paper. The pressure often brings out excellent and surprising writing. In-class writing is particularly useful for people who aren’t used to producing under pressure this way and think they can’t do it (they can).
And here is an example of an exercise (from Chapter 3):
Write a paragraph of narrative, 100-150 words, in sentences of seven or fewer words. No sentence fragments. Each must have a subject and a verb.
The part two to that is the opposite, writing one long sentence.
So, given all that, it seems like one way this could work is if once a week, someone (moderator?) posts the new exercise (or announces our intention to do it) and we allow a days worth of discussion about the exercise before attempting it. Then cut off discussion, and ask people to write their exercise but not post before 24 hours are up. I say this because some of us will be sleeping as others work and it might be nice to remove the temptation of seeing what others are doing before trying our own. Then we start posting as we wish and commenting as we wish until it all winds down and we start up on the next exercise.
I’m not stuck on that model, it’s just that like you, Jordan, thought I’d put an idea out there to start discussion.
As to the forum – I’m leaning towards starting a ‘secret’ GR group. ‘Secret’ meaning even it's existence isn’t viewable by non-members. That could avoid the discomfort of having to say no to unknown people wanting to join. Not suggesting we necessarily keep it a secret, just that I think that’s what GR calls those groups that are hidden from searches etc.: ‘secret’. [caveat: I just read up on this and have no experience at creating groups, but it looks fairly straightforward.]
I don’t mind trying to create one myself, though I’m also happy to let someone else take the reins. To let y’all know – I don’t participate a lot in discussion because during semesters sometimes it feels like all I can do to keep my head above water, but I do consistently check my Ocotillo email and stay on top of the required stuff pretty well. I.e., though you don’t see evidence of me much around here, I don’t think you’d have to worry about me disappearing and not, say, approving members or whatever in a timely manner. I think I’m pretty reliable about that sort of thing, especially when it doesn’t actually take up a whole lot of time. But yeah, whatever, I am more than happy to let someone else take the reins if it sounds like something they are good at (in general, people-leading, rah-rah stuff, and high organizational skills are not my primary strengths!).
And I agree that as a chat room thing: Ugh, PLEASE no. That sounds like a nightmare. I need to move slow and chat rooms just sort of freak me out (my brain just sort of flips out trying to keep up with everything and eventually just gives up and shuts down).
December is a good time for me as I’m on break, but I’m also good with waiting until maybe right after holidays season? It'd be good to at least get it started before my semester (mid/late Jan) starts up in earnest again.
Sorry so long. :)
-Oco
btw: I want to do a minor vent... can't remember which of these threads it was where we were talking about how the author should never never never engage a reviewer on GR (the discussion came because an author crawled down KZ's throat for DNF'ing his book).Well, we all agreed with that basic principle (including me, vehemently), and now I am finding myself **itching** to engage a reviewer on a review of one of mine... but here's why. She's posted a MAJOR spoiler of a plot twist central to the entire story. :((((
Like the whole point of this book, in many ways, is a slow reveal of the fact that character X is yyyyy. And right there in the second or third sentence the reviewer writes something like, "interesting take on the idea of X actually being yyyy." Anyone who reads her review is going to miss out on much of the fun of the book. :(
Arghhhh!!!
*sigh* (Nope, not going to do anything. That's why I'm venting in a quiet place where other writers hang out).
Thank you... :)
Eve wrote: "btw: I want to do a minor vent... can't remember which of these threads it was where we were talking about how the author should never never never engage a reviewer on GR (the discussion came becau..."Let one of us know and we can PM her and ask her to put spoiler tags on it.
Kaje wrote: "Eve wrote: "btw: I want to do a minor vent... can't remember which of these threads it was where we were talking about how the author should never never never engage a reviewer on GR (the discussio..."Okay. Now I feel stoopid. Because you aren't ever going to believe that that hadn't occurred to me. :\ Which, yeah, that wasn't a hint, hint. But if someone would do that nicely it'd be awesome. Have to go find it:
Here:
http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...
Incidentally - my frustration at that came from a feeling of impotence. That sort of mistake (unintentionally spoiling someone) is something that I totally could see myself doing...
Thanks buckets! :)
Okay I'm about to PM her to make the request; just need to test out <"spoiler"> <"/spoiler"> and (view spoiler).
Eve - your post made me curious about what book you were talking about, so I clicked and prepared to shield my eyes and just look for the title. Then I saw it was "The Violet and the Tom" and just wanted to say OMG! I loved that!! (and that was a pretty egregious spoiler, damn.)
That's all :)
That's all :)
Oh thanks! And Kaje PM'd by the way, and I thanked her but will do so publicly now.Thank you, Kaje. *\o/*
I'd been wondering in general how to deal with this sort of thing, because it has to happen a lot. As I said, I could totally see myself doing it on one of my far-too-common brain-fart days.
Often times spoilers aren't a hyper-big-deal (I don't generally mind being 'spoiled'), but in this case, it was, since the twist was so integral to the story.
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Also, Oco, I do like your ideas for a "secret" group and how to post for the excersises. That makes perfect sense to me. I sooo can't spell right now (almost wrote slepp) too tired... must finish checking email and scram from the boards before I say something I don't mean to by accident.
Jordan, I am one of those people who will read the ending if I get worried without feeling the least bit guilty. Hah. :) I find that I can enjoy the ride more if I'm assured of a good ending, like, I can slow down and watch the development and the scenery.I sure hope you like it. I don't think it is necessary to be surprised to enjoy the story, but I wrote it with the reveal in mind, spending a fair bit of time trying to make it so that different readers would figure it out at different places, some early, some late.
Me? I would've been one of the readers to figure it out late. I *never* figure out who the 'murderer' is before I'm told... heh. Though I can't say that I try very hard either. :)
I'm hoping we get somewhere between 4 and ten people to join in. That seems like a perfect, manageable number to me...
Cleon, I hope you join us. Having the book would certainly enrich the experience, and I like the idea of supporting the author with sales, but goodness, you'll still get a lot out of joining us (the exercises are all pretty straightforward), and you are in a bad spot, aren't you? And anyways, we'd miss you if you weren't part of it. :)
By the way, for everyone's info, since we are all busy and need to be actually *writing* as well, I envision that if we did an exercise a week, it would take about an hour a week, plus any discussion that we each wanted to contribute. There are ten exercises total. Some of those have parts A and B. But the point is, this isn't a huge time commitment.
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Q&A with Josh Lanyon
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I think you hit the nail on the head. That's exactly it Josh. Exploring all those available options. lol, I couldn't take one of my two current MCs and turn one of them into a merman, it just wouldn't work. The universe is wrong, and I can't create an Alternate Universe for this realistic setting. And readers would go WTF? lol. But with fanfic, no one questions it. And if they don't like that idea, they can skip it and go on to the next.