Q&A with Josh Lanyon discussion
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Writing Questions for Josh
Josh wrote: "I'm proud of that book. Both Laura and I -- and our wonderful editor Judith David -- worked our asses off to create that. But that was just more work and more emotional wear and tear than any of us could face repeating."This is an invaluable bit of honesty here. You both received heaps of well-deserved praise and reader-love for that book, yet even such a reception couldn't persuade you to have another go.
No guts, no glory, BUT...there's clearly some point at which the sacrifices outweigh the rewards. Is that point only recognizable to a writer after s/he has reached it? Or can the writer see it coming? And what are those sacrifices?
Lot to think about.
Mod
I think its probably accurate to say that no one can know their whole capacity without testing their personal limits. To that end, the true test of grit is delivering what you promise no matter how grueling and painful it turns out to be. That said, the true test of intelligence is knowing when not to make that same promise again.
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..."
Three quarters in we both realized it was much, much more complicated and difficult than we had expected -- and we hadn't worked out a great method for co-writing (in fact, looking back, it was absolute insanity) but by then we had committed ourselves -- plus Laura had committed financial resources to promoting the series, so there wasn't any question that we had to complete our mission. At least the first book.
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..."
Ha! Yes. Exactly.
Wisdom that can be applied to all relationships, I imagine: between domestic partners, authors and publishers, service providers and clients...
Do you ever get overwhelmed by the demands for sequels, Josh?Right now, I've promised readers 2 with a strong probably on a 3rd. By January...Unless I'm sorely mistaken, readers are going to want to those sequels which would bump me up to 5.
O.O
This is not good for a chick who can produce 3 books and a coupla shorts per year, tops, unless I'm willing to sacrifice quality which I am not. I NEED to work on new material too. I can't produce sequels all the time, it'd stifle me. For example, this time, I'm heading into the Spoils sequel, the zombie story and a mysterious 3rd I haven't settled on yet. The zombie world is definitely rich enough to support several books so that'll just add to my IOUs...FFS. Short of quitting my day job, how do I fix this? Tips? Advice?
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Also, it's best if you don't put ideas in writing where others will see them or where they're considered "permanent" by readers, like a blog, website, even Twitter. Keep them to yourself, so that if something doesn't happen for awhile, you won't have readers wondering where it is and why you haven't written it yet. That includes new material too. At least don't say anything until you're sure it's going somewhere. But talk to the crit group all you want about all your ideas! lol.
Hope this is helpful.
Mod
Right now, I've promised readers 2 with a strong probably on a 3rd. By January...Unless I'm sorely mistaken, readers are going to want..."
I do. A little bit.
It wasn't a problem when there weren't so many series, or when I was just doing little quick codas to novellas, but I sort of got carried away with the idea of continuing on with characters and stories and I launched too many at once.
So that would be my first tip. Limit how many series you allow yourself to run at any one time. As you say, if all you're writing are continuations of existing stories, that gets to feel limiting after a while.
The other thing I would say is don't let yourself be cajoled into promising a sequel to a book that doesn't need it. Or, if you think you would eventually like to do a follow-up, don't commit to a particular time frame until you're ready to write the story.
The thing you have to remember is sequels and series are so common nowdays readers are in the habit of asking for more merely because they loved the story or the characters. But that's really not justification for a sequel or a series. When it comes to continuing a storyline, you're really the best judge as to whether there's justification, whether you've got enough left to work with.
You have to be honest with yourself. If you don't think there's enough there to explore in another story, I'd say follow your instinct.
Josh wrote: "So that would be my first tip. Limit how many series you allow yourself to run at any one time."Probably yanking back my drama queen self would be helpful, LOL. Also recognizing the distinction between simple sequels and series. The first 2 are only sequels. Two books then finit. Done. That isn't so bad. The others...Oh lord.
The other thing I would say is don't let yourself be cajoled into promising a sequel to a book that doesn't need it. Or, if you think you would eventually like to do a follow-up, don't commit to a particular time frame until you're ready to write the story.
That's one thing at least. I've never committed to a time frame for anything. I interrupted the Spoils sequel to write IO/Collared/ITR, sure, but it's not like I had a contract or a release date for the Spoils sequel. Still don't, actually. LOL.
I am cross posting from the October Read thread, because my thoughts are too OT.Josh wrote: "Now in other genres, feel free to kill everyone and blow up the world."
You know, it's something I was thinking about these last days. I read - strange but true - het romance too and I'm anxiously waiting for the release of a sequel of a book where the author killed the hero in the last installment. I don't know if I am hoping for a miracle resurrection (which according to the rules of that world should be impossible) or for the author to convince that the heroine is better off without the guy.
Was the decision of the author a betrayal of the readers or a betrayal of the rules of the genre?
I am very conflicted about it.
In a well-loved M/M book which I can't figure out the spoiler thingy to hide the name of, the same thing happens in the second book of the series. It was painful, but the deceased was the secondary POV and the other guy went on and gradually healed...some. It was powerful and it worked, but I do think some warning of a sad ending is appropriate in a book labelled as Romance. So many people read the genre for the HEA lift. So the betrayal is not in writing the book, but in failing to give warning that the end is sad.
Kaje wrote: "In a well-loved M/M book which I can't figure out the spoiler thingy to hide the name of, the same thing happens in the second book of the series. It was painful, but the deceased was the secondar..."I know which book you are referring to (view spoiler).
The spoiler thingy works like <*spoiler>this<*/spoiler> without (view spoiler)
I should say that the series I am reading is in the first person POV of the heroine, but she and he have been working on that relationship for four books and there were a lot of things to work on still. I am also cinically wondering if it's a way to prolong the life of the series, but it's too painful for readers.
Emanuela ~plastic duck~ wrote: "Kaje wrote: "In a well-loved M/M book which I can't figure out the spoiler thingy to hide the name of, the same thing happens in the second book of the series. It was painful, but the deceased was..."Ah, thank you for the (view spoiler). Yeah, I could see where that would be painful. At least in the m/m you kind of knew it was coming from the beginning, no matter how much you hoped they would dodge the bullet until the end of the series. I'd be less cynical and think that maybe the author just wanted to be unpredictable and outside the box. But if it makes your readers unhappy, maybe that's too far outside. Unless it's a paranormal like the Dresden Files where he gets to be a ghost for one book and then come back to life?
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..."
Okay. First point. Most of the people writing in m/m romance are coming at it from a mainstream/fan fiction background NOT a gay literature background, so their view on this will be very different. It will be a more youthful and mainstream view.
Which is fine -- that's as it should be. I'm not suggesting that everyone needs to write m/m fiction according to my rules. ;-P
Now on to your question, Emanuela. A possible "betrayal" of the reader/writer contract within context of a series will largely depend on tone and theme.
If the series has been lighthearted and playful and played for laughs, then the death of a major character is most certainly a betrayal of the reader's confidence.
But if the series has dark undertones, if favorite characters have died, if there is a precedent for tragedy and loss, then no, there is no betrayal. The writer established from the first that this is a world where bad things happen to good people.
In a standalone there is no reader/writer contract and there are no rules. All bets are off with a standalone -- which is why standalones can be so satisfying to write. In a series...yes. There are rules of engagement. And woe to the writer who betrays the reader.
I'm not saying the writer can't do whatever the writer wants to do. I'm saying the writer needs to buck up and remain stoic as readers express their displeasure. Because that's what happens and many a writer cracks beneath the pressure and lashes out at readers who Don't Understand. ;-P
Mod
Frankly, labeling is a serious issue in this genre. Starting with the generic "erotica" and working on down to the various expectations of "romance."
Kaje wrote: "...where he gets to be a ghost for one book and then come back to life?"Or it was all a dream!!! It was Bobby Ewing in the series Dallas, right?
I am consciously waiting for something like that, because I really liked him, but it should be well explained in the rules of her world because otherwise I'd be pissed off for the easy way out. I'm not a tough reader, I assure you, I am ready to buy anything, but the author has to show me she worked really hard on it :-)
Emanuela ~plastic duck~ wrote: "Was the decision of the author a betrayal of the readers or a betrayal of the rules of the genre? "Or was she just following a deep-seated conviction that told her this was what had to happen?
I'm betting she figures out some new world-rule that allows her to resurrect the hero. But beware; I predict angsty seas ahead.
Josh wrote: "I'm not saying the writer can't do whatever the writer wants to do. I'm saying the writer needs to buck up and remain stoic as readers express their displeasure. Because that's what happens and many a writer cracks beneath the pressure and lashes out at readers who Don't Understand. ;-P"I was mad because I felt betrayed in my expectations, but I have to admit that I loved feeling my outrage. I am split between admiration and ... WTF :-D
The series is the classical urban fantasy setting, very linear and entertaining (at least for me), the heroine and hero had been having this conflicted relationship since the beginning and we were just before the point where they would be over their conflict and ready to acknowledge their feelings... and he was killed. The sequel is realead on Tuesday and there's another book planned, so I guess the decision is kind of working.
Anne wrote: "Or was she just following a deep-seated conviction that told her this was what had to happen?..."Sometimes you do get tired of all the near-misses in the genre. I gave a character brain damage after a head-trauma, because I was convinced it was likely and because I was tired of my own characters brushing off traumatic injury (on top of everyone else's.) Maybe she wanted to acknowledge the real world where people die when you're not ready for it to happen. Depends how formulaic she has been until now whether that fits with the tone of the series?
Anne wrote: "I'm betting she figures out some new world-rule that allows her to resurrect the hero. But beware; I predict angsty seas ahead.."She probably decided to up the angst factor, because even if the setting is dangerous and there are a lot of external conflicts, the romantic relationship was a mixture of enemies-to-lovers, mentor/mentee relationship, with a lot of anticipation because the guy is - was - drop dead (*sniff*) gorgeous, very classical in a way.
If she can't resurrect him... oh, wait, there has been nothing about re-incarnation yet! :-D
Mod
AARGH! Reincarnation! I read a book once where that was the solution. Time-travel het romance. I might have been okay with it if the reincarnated hero had instantly recognized that he was her lover in a previous life, but he didn't.I guess I'm rigid in my tropes.
Josh wrote: "I'm not saying the writer can't do whatever the writer wants to do. I'm saying the writer needs to buck up and remain stoic as readers express their displeasure. Because that's what happens and many a writer cracks beneath the pressure and lashes out at readers who Don't Understand. ;-P..."I expect you had to stock up on stoicism after The Hell You Say. I remember the outrage even though I only experienced the tail end of it. And I think even after two more books there are readers who would really like to meet Jake in a dark alley with a knife *g*
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Or was she just following a deep-seated conviction that told her..."
:-D Then she's writing in the wrong genre.
I'm mostly kidding. But I will say that I've never had any patience with the idea that the writer was not in control of the process. That someone's muse drove them to do something stupid. :-D Or even something brilliant.
I believe absolutely in divine inspiration. But writing is not mediumship. It's also a rational and analytical process. Or at least the best writers are keenly conscious of craft and drama. So a writer at the mercy of creative drive with no control over the process is either very new to the gig or very bad at it.
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Josh wrote: "writing is not mediumship. It's also a rational and analytical process. Or at least the best writers are keenly conscious of craft and drama. So a writer at the mercy of creative drive with no control over the process is either very new to the gig or very bad at it. ..."Even when it feels that way. Ouch, but yeah, attention to the craft is probably the learned part of being an author.
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Controlling the power is the first step to becoming a real wizard. Er, and a real writer. :-P
Josh wrote: "Controlling the power is the first step to becoming a real wizard. Er, and a real writer. :-P ..."Thank you Mr. Wizard :) Seriously, I do appreciate craft in a story and I know that's important; although flying by the seat of one's characters' pants is so much fun...
Josh wrote: "So a writer at the mercy of creative drive with no control over the process is either very new to the gig or very bad at it."Or prone to psychotic episodes. (I'm only half-joking here.)
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Or prone to psychotic episodes. (I'm only half-joking here.)"
Given some of the stuff you guys report from the other sectors, I KNOW you're only half-joking. :-D
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Thank you Mr. Wizard :) Seriously, I do appreciate craft in a story and I know that..."
Sure! That's where the divine inspiration comes in.
Josh wrote: "Sure! That's where the divine inspiration comes in...."
Well, I'd hesitate to say divine, but sometimes it is pretty damned inspiring.
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..."
Well, I'd hesitate to say divine, but sometimes it is pretty damned inspiring."
Where does inspiration come from? Sometimes it does feel like a gift from the gods.
Actually, it usually feels like that, even when it's telling you to do something really stupid. :-D
Josh wrote: "Where does inspiration come from? Sometimes it does feel like a gift from the gods.Actually, it usually feels like that, even when it's telling you to do something really stupid. :-D ..."
Okay, if you're willing to be pantheistic (with a less-than-perfect pantheon) then I'll cop to the same feeling sometimes.
K.Z. wrote: "Josh wrote: "So a writer at the mercy of creative drive with no control over the process is either very new to the gig or very bad at it."Or prone to psychotic episodes. (I'm only half-joking here.)"
That explains so much. Now I know what happened during those blackouts...
Josh wrote: "Where does inspiration come from? Sometimes it does feel like a gift from the gods. Actually, it usually feels like that, even when it's telling you to do something really stupid. :-D "
So, taking in everything you wrote earlier on craft, do you sometimes feel like you recieved divine inspiration that you must ignore to craft a better work?
I think I've been struggling with this a lot recently. It's seriously messing with my productivity.
Josh wrote: "Given some of the stuff you guys report from the other sectors, I KNOW you're only half-joking. :-D"I'm still too traumatized to find that amusing.
(Hope nobody took that seriously. ;-))
Really, though, it's rather strange how certain characters and scenes leap off the page yet others have to be coaxed. And coaxed. (I have all sorts of similes for that, but I can't seem to choose just one. Heh.)
Mod
Actually, it usually feels like that, even when it's telling you to do something really stupid. :-..."
Well, here's an example. When I was working on A Dangerous Thing, it occurred to me that I could kill Lisa in the next book. I saw the whole scenario rise before me. Oh my God. The drama. The angst. Poor Adrien. I could see the scene where Jake tries to stop him from walking into the crime scene.
:-D :-D
But ultimately...cheesy. Manipulative and contrived and cheesy. And a bad move from a storytelling standpoint because Lisa brings all kinds of other characters and complications into Adrien's life that make for a richer, better story, and allow a better character arc for Adrien. So there's where inspiration was checked by reason and craft. Initially I thought it was a brilliant idea. But looked at dispassionately, I saw that it was actually kind of hackneyed and unproductive.
What helps me is to remember that just as every inspiration I get in real life is not a winner, so too is not every storytelling inspiration a sure thing.
Josh wrote: "But ultimately...cheesy. Manipulative and contrived and cheesy."You have to admit, though, some authors are pulled awfully far by that team. (And most of us are pulled short distances, at least some of the time. But that's the nature of fiction writing.)
K.Z. wrote: "Josh wrote: "But ultimately...cheesy. Manipulative and contrived and cheesy."You have to admit, though, some authors are pulled awfully far by that team. (And most of us are pulled short distance..."
I agree, but I think there are the occassional authors who can truly pull that out. I'm struggling with just this issue right now. But because I'm dealing with historical events, I have an excuse. I just can't push it too far.
Serious, angsty stuff is so not in my make-up. Such a releif to me. LOL
Josh wrote: "When I was working on A Dangerous Thing, it occurred to me that I could kill Lisa in the next book."And you decided instead you could kill all your readers with having Jake marry Kate :-P
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I am sooo cruel to my characters. Sooo cruel. hehehe.
But yeah, it doesn't make sense to do that in published fic, at least not to the crazy extent that some fanfic authors take it.
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You have to admit, though, some authors are pulled awfully far by that team. (And most of us are pulled short distance..."
Yep. You're right. It's tempting when you have that power over the reader.
But I know that I'm a reader who reacts badly to feeling manipulated or to anything I deem contrived or artificial.
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And you decided instead you could kill all your readers with having Jake marry Kat..."
:-D :-D
Hey, but that was actually a realistic and logical development. I suspect that's why it was so painful.
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Fan fic is such a different art form. Part of the pleasure of fan fic IS the crazy explorations. That is the beauty and fascination. To take canon characters and then explore every possible variation on the theme.
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Me neither. It seems like the ultimate responsibility duck.
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Emanuela wrote: "And you decided instead you could kill all your readers with having Jake marry Kate :-P"
Ha ha! So true!!! And if it actually didn't kill the reader, it at least made the reader in question want to strangle somebody at that point... ;) Hmmm... see, chain reaction!
Nicole wrote: "Josh wrote: "But I will say that I've never had any patience with the idea that the writer was not in control of the process"Me neither. It seems like the ultimate responsibility duck."
I'm glad to hear y'all say this. In a closely related vein, often I'll hear someone say that they don't outline because they have to let their characters decide where to take the story. Whereas that may work for them (and for example, JCP has said this, and HELLO, am I going to second guess her process? NO way!, count me among her greatest fans), I find that for me, doing that amounts to taking the easy, safe and predictable road, and is a sure way to a predictable and cliche story.
Along those lines, I read a suggestion once on working with inspiration. Josh's comment about 'not all inspirations are good ones' made me think of it.
The basic idea was that when asking yourself 'so what happens next?' or 'how does he react?', try taking your first gut reaction and saying to yourself, okay, that would be expected. What if they *didn't* do that? What is another option? The idea being, to keep the story from moving along a predictable path and to perhaps bring you into some uncharted waters.
Anyway. Just sharing.
Incidentally, I picked up LeGuin's book (Steering the Craft: Exercises and Discussions on Story Writing for the Lone Navigator or the Mutinous Crew) that you rec'd, Nicole. As well as Yoshino's (Covering: The Hidden Assault on Our Civil Rights). Haven't touched the second yet, but have flipped through LeGuin's and it looks great. Very usable, if that makes sense. So thanks! :)
That's an interesting idea - kind of deliberately making yourself take the path less traveled by. You still wouldn't necessarily have to plot out in advance, just not leap into scenes without looking...
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Q&A with Josh Lanyon
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As for world collaboration, yeah, I could do that. Sometimes I need another person whispering ideas into my head. But aside from that, I want everything else to be MINE. I don't like to share. lol.