Q&A with Josh Lanyon discussion
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Writing Questions for Josh
Nicole wrote: "Sometimes I think that this all comes down to the core personality author. When trying to encourage various writers to make their protagonists more broadly appealing, I often draw upon personal knowledge I have about them. ..."That's interesting. And makes sense the more I think about it. I'd say that the author who thinks "it's the best I can do right now" doesn't think in black and white and recognizes the gray/complexity in learning which means they probably apply that intuitively to characterization as well. At least, that is what I'm hearing, though it's not exactly what you said.
In general, I'd say about all of this stuff, that it is fairly easy to understand the concepts of what should be done, and really difficult to fully apply them. I.e., I feel as though I 'get' the sympathetic character pretty well, but I make absolutely no claims about how well I accomplish what I set out to do. Can be frustrating.
When I get real frustrated by my inability to do what I see, I go back and read my old work. And from that, I can see that I'm improving, even if my current efforts seem to fall short of what I think I should be capable of. If that makes sense.
Hey. Was out for a bit, but thinking about this thread, and remembering a really clear example of a sympathetic villain. Not saying the best, but certainly very clear (extreme). For any old trekkies (the original series), I'm thinking of Charlie in the episode Charlie X. He was pretty scarily unstable, but you couldn't help but feel sorry for the guy while needing to get as far away from him as possible. Hard to explain unless you've seen the episode.
Ocotillo wrote: "@ liade's post 1815: Um? I think I already covered all that in #1808? The point (maybe you didn't read it?) was that I believed Josh misunderstood Kaje's post on exactly the point that you are now ..."Thanks, Octillo, that was exactly what I was trying to say - just that the field was effectively narrowed down. I hope most women in the books are not negative/villains. And in Lies and Consequences I did let the kick-ass hero have to be rescued by the boyfriend's female roommate, and tried to make her well-rounded, so I think I get a few points there (to make up for the down-check on Life Lessons.) It's something I'm still struggling with, to include more believable secondary characters, especially women. I also wonder whether in an effort to avoid the "homophobic dad" stereotype, we are now seeing a plethora of "homophobic mom" characters adding to the negative female portrayals.
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Well, sort of. More like the writer is drawing less of their personal sense of self from the text on the page, and is therefore more likely to look at all aspects of it more objectively. What I mean is a writer who is looking at their piece as their creation that they are in control of, rather than as a reflection of themselves, or a manifestation of their existence or importance in the world. Authors who can retain this middle-path attitude can approach the whole process of writing less self-consciously and experience faster, less painful growth.
They also generally allow their characters to be more human, as you said. :)
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It does, but I would caution you against measuring yourself against such an unattainable standard. As you increase in skill you'll always be able to see one step beyond what you can achieve. That's just the way it is. Writing is a lifelong adventure, you know? My suggestion would be to try and enjoy the process a little more and keep score a little less. :)
Nicole wrote: "My suggestion would be to try and enjoy the process a little more and keep score a little less. :)
"
Ooh. I like that thought. It applies to so many things in life. Thanks!!
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Ooh. I like that thought. It applies to so many things in life. Thanks!!
@ Nicole: I see the distinction you are making. I.e., when we appreciate that our books/stories are our creations, yes, but they aren't 'us'. Healthy boundaries, in a way, that free us to develop the characters as they need to be developed without feeling as though they are a direct reflection on us. (I think, apologies if you are hitting your head saying No! No! *lol*) Now *that* is something to chew on, especially with my current focus, where I’m struggling with a protag, trying to pull myself back from constantly wanting to make him likable.On the other points (about unattainable goals), I do have a pretty good sense for that, I think. And I’m absolutely NOT a perfectionist though I am driven. It’s more that the learning is what I enjoy most about any activity I do – so much so that once I get reasonably skilled at things, I tend to drop them and hunt for another. Which presents its own problems… heh. Exhaustion, for example.
I.e., I’m not actually as hard on myself as may come across in my posts.
I had a therapist once (yes, I’ve seen them) mention that I exhibit characteristics that are common to the ADD spectrum (except that it seems to have helped my academic performance, not hurt it), a driven hyperfocus that I get for the ‘hobby/skillset/subject’ currently consuming me. So I can get very driven to improve, and sometimes frustrated with how slowly I go (like the dreams where you run and run on a treadmill, which no, I don’t get those dreams), but that doesn’t mean I’m not enjoying the hell out of the process. Quite the opposite.
And that is far more attention paid to me than I am comfortable with. Heh. Psychoanalyze that! Plenty of fodder there. :)
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Just out of curiosity, what makes you believe that your character is not likable? I mean, did you make him a real gung-ho tax collector or something? Cause a lot of times if you've got a character who you know people are going to be leery of automatically because of his job or whatever, one way to make him more likable is to give him a strong, worthy motivation for doing what he's doing in the book.
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Emphatic yes to this. The difference between heroes and villains is often just a matter of whose POV the story is told from.
Nicole wrote: "Ocotillo wrote: "Now *that* is something to chew on, especially with my current focus, where I’m struggling with a protag, trying to pull myself back from constantly wanting to make him likable."..."
Actually it's the reverse problem. My inclination is to make him too likable, when I think he'll come across better if he's a little more gruff and caustic.
Ok. He's the Captain of a Spaceship, right (sounds like a joke coming on!) and he's going through a crisis of personal growth in the story (sort of like a coming of age, except he's a grownup!). In the beginning, I think I want him angry and pissing off his crew and generally being something of an a-hole. But what happens is I whenever I get into the 'zone' of writing him, I find myself doing what *I* would do in those situations, which is trying to lead by example, making it up to his crew when he's been a jerk, that sort of thing. Which, I have to wonder if on some subconscious level, I'm worrying that if I make him somewhat jerk-ish, my readers will think I'm a jerk.
I think my natural inclination is to pattern most of my characters after some facet of myself (thank goodness I have lots of facets), but maybe I need to learn how to not do this. But it's been my 'shortcut' to creating 3d characters so far. It is difficult for me to 'channel' his character to make him self-consistent and believable.
To be clear, I'm not trying to make him a total jerk. You are aware of the idea that male depression is often expressed as anger? That's what I'm trying to work with.
Yeah, we have a quite heated discussion about CWD & what is exactly CWD here: http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/6...
Nicole wrote: "Ocotillo wrote: "I'd also be interested in hearing which writing topics y'all find hardest to teach. "I am not joking in anyway when I say that, for me, the hardest thing to teach new writers is ..."
So true. :D
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From what I've observed,leaders generally don't piss off their crews, they piss off their spouses. Cause if you piss off your crew they mutiny, but your spouse is obligated to stay. Maybe its not so much likable/unlikable that you are thinking of so much as leader/not leader. A leader must always be strict, but fair. That means that other people aren't going to like you all the time, but they will always respect you. So for a leader guy, maybe not being an asshole, but just being a guy who knows what he's doing and doesn't take any shit from anyone might be the way to go?
Ocotillo wrote: "Nicole wrote: "Ocotillo wrote: "Now *that* is something to chew on, especially with my current focus, where I’m struggling with a protag, trying to pull e myself back from constantly wanting to make ..."
He reminds me of House.
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:-D
I agree with you. Satisfying romance is, for me, a blend of realism and fantasy.
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This is one I haven't read yet.
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I am not joking in anyway when I say that, for me, the hardest thing to teach new writers is ..."
I think patience is the hardest thing to teach anyone. Gardening is good for that.
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Well, you know that old saying: Rome wasn't built in a day. :)"
In fact, it wasn't even burned down in a day, was it?
@ Nicole.Yes, mutiny could be a possibility (though there are safeguards for this). No he's not an ideal captain/leader, but he is at a point of crisis as the story opens, so he's worse than usual.
This is a dystopic future. The navy is expansionist, and it is not all volunteer. It is run by corporations as a business. There is a battle that takes place just before chapter 1. Alvarez (protags name) is battling a planet that is defending it's home. His ship takes a hit, crippling it, but manages to get out losing only some of his crew. The 'attacking' ship is blown to smithereens.
Alvarez realizes this war is immoral and this drove it home. Some of that is sublimated, and he takes it out on his crew (oversimplifying here, but his crew DID screw up, which led to the fiasco). All of this is in place as chapter 1 opens. The story is of this crumbling/crisis where he needs to change something. In Ch1 the ships medical officer tells Alvarez to 'get some R&R' during repairs.
There's another bit that is important in understanding Alvarez's 'mood' but it's part of a reveal and since I might try to publish this, I think I'll keep that out of public forums.
Sorry this is brief. And I'm not checking for type-o's but I'm leaving for work pretty soon. I just didn't want it left with the impression that these were willy-nilly decisions.
Um. So yeah. I keep trying to make him a better leader, because in my gut, I hate for him to come out looking stupid. And even now, I'm realizing that I need to go pull *out* this lovely little mini-scene I'd put in yesterday where he does a sort of back-handed apology to his navigator.
:p Ah well. It's coming along. I wanted a challenge. :D
@ Cleon: House? The TV show (I googled)? I think maybe not, because House is a stable character, even if he is a jerk.
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I think many readers have trouble with shades of gray. In fact, people in general have troubles with shades of gray -- which is why so many characters are black and white. Heroes and villains. Good and Eville. It simplifies the process.
And it does seem to pay off for a lot of writers.
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In the past, when writing fanfic, I've definitely done the villian wife becomes ex-wife, and the wife who dies in an accident. But I agree, it's hard to know how to put females into a gay romance that's all about the men. Right now, the female in the novel I'm working on happens to be the boss of my two leads. She's defintely wearing the tough boots. But in my next plot, I've got a female who's partnered as a cop with one of the male leads, and is thus on more equal ground with him, perhaps even a best or at least, a very close friend to him.
It's hard because while I can certainly see the enticement of cutting out all females, that's not realistic either. But then, as it's been stated, even het romance isn't very realistic. And other genres outside of romance aren't always realistic either. I think it all comes down to the writer and how they see the characters and how they want the plot to go.
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You want a realistic balance like you would find in real life.
Not that fiction is real life, but successful fiction mirrors a recognizable reality.
Josh wrote: "I think the main thing to remember is the villain of a piece rarely sees themselves as the villain. The villain usually believes they've got absolutely valid reasons for doing what they do."I read some communication advice once that said something like "assume that what the other person says is true, and then figure out what it is true of." Same thing maybe.
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It really does have cool exercises. If I were teaching a class I'd totally use it to swipe exercises from.
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Interesting. I like that.
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And it does seem to pay off for a lot of writers. "
Yeah, it sure does.
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I just write what people ask me for, but I think I might be unusual in that way. :)
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:D
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Sounds like you got a old fashioned space opera going on. :)
Just from your description, though, I'd suggest opening with the horrible space battle instead of just after it. Everybody likes a ringside seat at a catastropic space battle...
Just a question about trope to both readers and writers in general.So I have this short story I want to expand to novella or novel. The original pairing is demon/human, with demon/angel UST in the background. However, to create a satisfying ending, it seems that the 3 of them should end up together. But threesome turns off a lot of readers. I am outlining and now the muse keeps wanting the three main characters to be together. So... threesome, yes or no? Or should I force it to be a regular pairing?
Lou wrote: "Sorry, change of topic.For me the hardest part of writing is coming up with the initial idea. When it's an anthology call, the more specific it is, the better. Restrictions are inspiring, and I w..."
I agree that specific prompts are helpful. My story for the HSD anthology wrote itself in a day, because between the picture and the prompt the whole idea just fell into place. The only thing I do inspiration-wise is to keep post-its beside my bed because for some reason I wake in the middle of the night with snippets and ideas, and I have to write them down or they vanish. But I've only written for anthologies a couple of times. Mostly I'm writing whatever comes into my brain (and fortunately so far my publisher has been buying it.)
Cleon wrote: "Just a question about trope to both readers and writers in general.So I have this short story I want to expand to novella or novel. The original pairing is demon/human, with demon/angel UST in th..."
Go for the threesome; there are enough readers that accept or even like that, and if you don't believe in your ending, neither will your readers. Just make sure each of your characters brings something to the trio and gets something out of it. When I read m/m/m the biggest thing I need for it to work is for the original pairing to be flawed and unworkable without the influence of the third character. That's why Dark Horse works better for me than 911 (much as I like both.) In the first book the trio all balance each other out, while in the second, other than too much alone time, there doesn't seem to be a valid reason for bringing Eric on board a happy couple arrangement.
Threesomes aren't selling? o.O News to me, compadre, and I wrote a menage bk (girl cooties alert) that's done pretty well for me.Go where the story leads you, I say.
JMO, tho.
Thanks, guys. Will it work if the story is written only from 2 guys' POVs and not 3?
Cleon wrote: "Thanks, guys. Will it work if the story is written only from 2 guys' POVs and not 3?"I would say yes, it could as long as you're careful to really flesh out character # 3 as much as possible.
Kaje wrote: "Cleon wrote: "Thanks, guys. Will it work if the story is written only from 2 guys' POVs and not 3?"I would say yes, it could as long as you're careful to really flesh out character # 3 as much as..."
Thanks, Kaje! :)
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@ Nicole. Thanks! Nope, not a space opera (at least not in the way I understand the definition: it isn't adventure, it's more of a 'what if' interpersonal dynamic story). Which, damn, now I wish it was, since getting your PM about an awesome ending. Can I hold onto that thought for a new story? *g* But yeah, I gave you the setup but left out an important element to the story (since it doesn't play into the question of Alvarez's beginning personality). And it's massively spoilerish, so being cagey in public forum.
@ Lou re ideas and all. Any more I feel as though I have more ideas than I know what to do with. The problem is pushing them down and having the patience to do one right before I jump on the next one. I think the reason for that is sort of what you said, which is, give a very basic plot to twenty people and you'll get twenty different stories. Yeah?
Having said that, I have a couple of specific places I've gotten prompts from:
1 -- we PM'd about this, but I'll list it here anyway. Finding a trope or cliche that abounds and figuring out how to turn it on its head.
2 -- you know how people come up with lists of 'the three basic plots', or, 'the twenty basic plots', or whatever? Looking through those lists has given me great ideas.
2 -- reading a story that went in a direction I didn't expect (or better yet, didn't like) gives me ideas about new stories.
3 -- fairy tales. Retelling a fairy tale and making it mine (haven't done this yet, but I'm interested to). Don't even have to tell anyone what I did, I figure the first reader to figure it out ("OMG! This is Red Riding Hood!!") will be pleased with themselves for having been so clever (at least *I* would be!).
4 -- I'm fascinated with power dynamics in relationships. So once I made a list of the different types of relationships that could involve power differentials (e.g., master/slave, duh, but also student/mentor, prisoner/warden...), and this ended up giving me ideas of ones to try (these aren't plots per se, but I can use a basic plot and complicate it with this). Point is, find the theme that fascinates and brainstorm on ways to play with it.
5. I have a writing buddy. We recently decided to write Xmas shorts for our LJ readers. We each wrote three prompts for the other person to pick from. The ones she gave me weren't outlandish, but they weren't the type thing *I* would think of, they were the type *she* would think of. That was cool.
I'd like to hear if others have other ways to brainstorm...
Oh! Characters! I have a resource for that, too. I use lists of archetypes in literature for ideas. I just found this one on the web, though in fact I have a couple of books that I use. E.g., The Complete Writer's Guide to Heroes and Heroines.
I use these for ideas, not by picking one and reading all about it so much as realizing, hey, all I've ever written are "bad boys" and "best friends" (or whatever). I should try a "boss". It's a source of inspiration, mostly.
I remember for a while I thought I could start a game with myself. Pick a card from each deck: Deck 1, "coming of age", Deck 2, "boss vs. "charmer", Deck 3, soldier vs. lieutenant, (power dynamic) except "oh my, the soldier is the 'boss' character? Oh my, that's interesting...
You see?
I'm not saying it'll work for you, but maybe for someone... and it's kind of fun. For me, it gets the engines revving and pushes me outside my comfort zone, and after a while of developing the character and plot together (along with any other themes I choose) a story can sort of come together and take on a life of its own.
Just ideas.
Mostly, what I've found is that even though that sounds like a recipe for tedium, it doesn't happen that way. Once I sit down and start nailing down specifics (why is the 'bad boy' that way? What is his age, his ethnicity, his socioeconomic class?) that brings up all sorts of ideas that are pretty clever (new/creative/whatever).
Oh, up there, forgot to mention that music (songs) give me ideas sometimes. Just single lines, not entire songs (Ick, songfic). Like, one from Jane's Addiction that struck me at the time as poetic... "I was made with a heart of stone, To be broken, With one hard blow", and I thought, ooooh. I want to write about that guy. Angst, I know. Sue me. :)
An interesting article about publishing with the mainstream publishers: http://accordingtohoyt.com/2011/08/31... .
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Music runs my life. I don't go anywhere without my mp3 player, so I'm always getting ideas from songs. Yeah, song fics tend to be really bad. I did one once, but the way I worked it into the story was that the song was playing in the background and the boys were listening to it, and it was to become their wedding song. Other times when I've written a story based on a song, I just put a line at the top of the story saying it was inspired by the song, but don't end up putting the lyrics into the story at all. One story I quoted lyrics at the beginning and the end, but not in the middle, and the story wasn't based on the song, so not a song fic at all.
I also like the idea of doing fairy tales. I mean M/M fairy tales would be a little different than the usual and it sounds like it could be fun. I should try that out sometime. Maybe book three... or the next short story...
Last year, I'd been trying to rewrite the same novel several times in a row without sucess. It sucked every time I tried to work on it, no matter how many versions I came up with. And I needed a plot for Nanowrimo 2010. I like to start plotting at the latest in September so I can write it in November. And I'd been replotting my previous novel through August, and at the beginning of September realized that it sucked, yet again.
I was at a loss, with no other plot in mind, and time was running out. So, I grabbed this little book that I'd begged someone to get me for xmas a few years back that I'd never used. It's called The Writer's Block. And, yep, it's a square shaped book all around. In it, there's pictures, words, phrases, quotes, everything a writer could use to come up with a plot. I went through it and wrote down the interesting words that caught my attention and before the night was over, I was on to a new novel with new characters. And thus was born my current novel.
This is definitely something I would try again, but I would also mention that I don't think you need to have The Writer's Block to do it. You can also use a dictionary, the real kind with paper, not dictionary.com. lol. Just flip through the pages at random and see what words catch your eye. You never know what might pop up!
Cleon wrote: "An interesting article about publishing with the mainstream publishers: http://accordingtohoyt.com/2011/08/31... ."Wow, that's really interesting. Makes me happy to be here in this sub-genre with active back-lists and publishers who treat their authors like humans (even if we don't get the princely $3000 advance. :)
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Jordan wrote: "I agree with you Kaje. If I wasn't into writing M/M, I wouldn't bother trying to publish something. I doubt it would happen. I'd just stick with fanfiction for the rest of my life. At least there, ..."Same with me, Jordan!
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Cleon wrote: "An interesting article about publishing with the mainstream publishers: http://accordingtohoyt.com/2011/08/31... ."That's just horrifying.
Charming wrote: "That's just horrifying."Sounded kinda...typical to me, honestly.
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I just write what people ask me for, but I think I might be unusual in that way. :)"
Same here. If the project interests me, I do my best to write to specification. In my own voice and style, natch.
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So I have this short story I want to expand to novella or novel. The original pairing is demon/human, with demon/angel UST in th..."
I think commercial writing is an ongoing compromise between writing exactly what you want to write and writing what will sell -- assuming you want to be commercial in your writing.
If it's important to you that these three be together at the end, then that's what you should write. Plenty of readers do like menage, so it's not that you can't or won't be published writing that particular dynamic.
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Yes, you should. Keep notes. Copious notes.
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Q&A with Josh Lanyon
Books mentioned in this topic
Alphabears: An ABC Book (other topics)Rag and Bone (other topics)
As Meat Loves Salt (other topics)
The Well of Loneliness (other topics)
The Selfish Gene (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Julie Smith (other topics)Bernard Cornwell (other topics)
Robin McKinley (other topics)
Tove Jansson (other topics)
Astrid Lindgren (other topics)
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Well, you know that old saying: Rome wasn't built in a day. :)"
:D