Q&A with Josh Lanyon discussion
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Writing Questions for Josh
That is basically the same figure, yes. I DO have a link up there, btw, just that it takes more than one click and I didn't have the patience to learn how to post in line. :)
But that picture works just as well. Thanks! :)
To add: (thought of this last night), notice, Kari, that the story does jump in on rising action. Not falling, not flat-line. That is what the other bit refers to.
I think. <--- *amateur*
Kari wrote: "I am quake confused.The way I see it and understand it...You're supposed to start your book at a point of action at the last possible moment. Any later than that and the story would no longer mak..."
Okay, this is how I see Spoils (in quake terms): Big quake, aftershocks small period of building tension, big quake (Eli), aftermath, aftershocks, and then you end up with a sort of medium quake (which I think works in this case). The way I use quakes is to think of them as not a bad thing. The Big One could be the MC's finally getting it on.
You're very much a quake woman, Kari. THat's a compliment. LOL
Ocotillo wrote: "Just catching up...Kari wrote: "I am quake confused.
The way I see it and understand it...You're supposed to start your book at a point of action at the last possible moment. Any later than that..."
Okay, I can totally see why this doesn't work for you two (especially when you know more about plate techtonics than I do. Me=art history major). I was thinking of this as the seismograph rather than the seismometer -- the actual picture of the quakes.
I love the idea of graphing the story, though. I probably need to do that.
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But... why? I think that you're right to assume that writing all characters as culturally identical invalidates the cultures from which they arise, whether they be derived from race, class, nationality, etc. It would be odd to assume that, for example, a British person should sound exactly like an American. It would be equally odd for a character of, say, inner-city origin and Vietnamese descent to sound exactly like a white farm kid from Nebraska. This is not because of different races. Rather, it's because each character's experience of life would be informed by different cultural references and experience. Growing up, they will have learned different vocabulary, have heard different music, and different stories, etc. In short they are different people, they should sound distinct.
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However it works for you to visualize this is "right." :)
@ Anne, that's it! Thank you. It's no better than Calathea's really, just it's nice to have the actual image there. :DAnd I suspect the reason the 'quake' thing doesn't work for me is because I think and visualize graphically. The quake-thing captures explosions of varying magnitude as if they were quantum (discrete) events, but not the rise and fall sort of dance in between (the comment about 'quakes not working that way' was just me being an insufferable smartass and I forget that type of humor doesn't translate well without expressions and intonations). Also, crisis isn't always an earthquake in stories, in the sense of destructive shaking. But that is all personal, about how we visualize/process info, I was just hoping I could clarify it to Kari if we thought similarly.
@Nicole. Thank you for the PM. I corrected in the original post. I do that with 'Hispanic' as well, the difference is Word always calls me on it, and 'Hispanic' is never a generic adjective so doesn't have quite the same potential to be offensive. And that is a hiccup example of what we were talking about, wasn't it? Pointed out, I think, "duh, I hadn't noticed" whereas I notice a bunch of stuff about being female because I live it every day.
And as to your comment up there. Yes, that too, and actually, that encapsulates why I *like* writing separate cultures (as opposed to the earnest 'want to make the world a better place' drive). Of course, I know next to jack about cultures outside my own, so I usually stick with the few I know marginally well.
Ocotillo wrote: "The quake-thing captures explosions of varying magnitude as if they were quantum (discrete) events, but not the rise and fall sort of dance in between (the comment about 'quakes not working that way' was just me being an insufferable smartass and I forget that type of humor doesn't translate well without expressions and intonations). "See, this is the difference between an art major and a science major. I think, "Oh, earthquake. Lines going up and down on a graph. That works." You think whatever it is you just said up there. LMAO
L.C. wrote: "So hard to keep up with you guys sometimes. ;-)I likened it to a rollercoaster - the rises keep climbing and drops keep decreasing so the longer you're on the ride the faster you go, then the m..."
Actually, I like that analogy better than mine. And I was just toying with the idea of having two lines on my graph -- action and emotion. I think it's a good idea. And I'm not sure they always have to match up (although I think the final loop-de-loop should have all players inside the car. Keeping hands and feet in).
Nope, not helping me at all. I'm still conceiving of the whole thing as one ginormous fubar earthquake event steadily building in intensity/strength.I give up.
LOLOL
Maybe it'd help if Anne identified the 'events' she saw in Spoils. I've read it, but apologies, I don't remember the plotline well enough to be able to do it. I'm thinking the rescue is one such event. As was almost getting caught. But my memory is a little vague on details.I think a lot of this structure comes intuitively to writers who've read a lot. Still, understanding and identifying allows you to hone your use of it. Like LC said, being cognizant of it allowed her to wield it like a sword (oh cool, honed sword, I actually did NOT mix metaphors there for a change) and build up the sexual tension to a fine edge.
Which, btw LC, yeah, the roller-coaster analogy works for me. And its not a question of how well you explained, rather that one way doesn't work for everyone equally. I teach for a living, and boy, I can vouch for the truth of that.
L.C. wrote: "Kari wrote: "Nope, not helping me at all. I'm still conceiving of the whole thing as one ginormous fubar earthquake event steadily building in intensity/strength."LOL Pot-a-toes, pot-ah-toes. I..."
Pot of toes?
L.C. wrote: "Ocotillo wrote: "And its not a question of how well you explained, rather that one way doesn't work for everyone equally. I teach for a living, and boy, I can vouch for the truth of that. ..."Ver..."
I tend to say "I get what you're saying," when it's something I feel like I understand on an intuitive and/or emotional level.
I hope this is okay -- just want to give a community thanks to the people that helped me with my question on this thread about web pages. I did choose a full pen-name, then a URL via dreamhost, and am slowly building a page as I learn the bits and pieces of how to do it (using WordPress to build). The impetus for this was getting a short accepted for a coming Dreamspinner anthology (Higher Learning).If you're interested, the webpage is here, but you'll find little more than friendly placeholders there at the moment. Mostly just wanted to say thanks, everyone's input was extremely helpful. :)
Ocotillo wrote: "I hope this is okay -- just want to give a community thanks to the people that helped me with my question on this thread about web pages. I did choose a full pen-name, then a URL via dreamhost, and..."CONGRATS, Ocotillo!
>:D
Ocotillo wrote: "I hope this is okay -- just want to give a community thanks to the people that helped me with my question on this thread about web pages. I did choose a full pen-name, then a URL via dreamhost, and..."Ocotillo, that's awesome!! Congrats. :-D
I'm going to watch you build this, because I need to build one eventually.
Ocotillo wrote: "I hope this is okay -- just want to give a community thanks to the people that helped me with my question on this thread about web pages. I did choose a full pen-name, then a URL via dreamhost, and..."Congratulations on the short! And good luck with the page. Mine is still pretty basic, but there are some elaborate ones out there, if you have the inclination. Could be fun if you have the design skills. Where's the picture from? Related to your story?
Ocotillo wrote: "I hope this is okay -- just want to give a community thanks to the people that helped me with my question on this thread about web pages. I did choose a full pen-name, then a URL via dreamhost, and..."Congratulations on the short story, Ocotillo :D
website looks good.
Wow. Aren't y'all supposed to be bar-b-queing (Labor Day)?? Oh yeah, U.S.-centric author here. :pThanks so much! :)
Gosh, Anne, you basically have one. If you went and signed up for hosting via Dreamhost (not an ad, just, I chose them because they made certain features very very clear -- tells you something about selling one's company, doesn't it?), you could reserve your name as a site (if someone else got it first, you'd be SOL, so you should probably jump to it sooner rather than later...OTOH it isn't like your penname is common), it would automatically be anonymous, AND it would come with Wordpress installed (though just to be safe, go there via Wordpress's link to the site).
Then you could just ignore it or play with it slowly, never giving out the address until you were satisfied it could hold its own. If you later wanted to move the site from Dreamhost to your own choice of company, you could, because you'd own the URL.
Also, I'm pretty sure that you could wholesale import your current Wordpress site onto the new one. They keep advertising an ability to me that seems like that, anyway.
I.e., you are already ahead of the game, whether you realize it or not.
Oh! Kaje and LC, thanks! The pics are actually my photos (I get worried about copyright issues). On the main page, from a slot canyon in the Guadalupe Mountains of New Mexico (where one of my earliest unpublished novels is set) and on the 'about' page is from near the top of Mt. Hood, Oregon, from a driving/hiking trip we did around Oregon/Washington State this summer. :)Man, I love country.
Dh works holidays. Plus, he and I are at an unfortunate impasse when it comes to grilling. The females in my family aren't allowed to touch a grill (plus, I refuse to, LOL) and dh won't do it either due to an early liquid firestarter mishap that very nearly near burned a picnic pavillion down. We have a firepit in the back yard, though, (for some absurd reason, he says this doesn't count?), but we have been at a standstill on the grilling issue for going on 20 years now.I think he's weakening...LMAO
Ocotillo wrote: "Wow. Aren't y'all supposed to be bar-b-queing (Labor Day)?? Oh yeah, U.S.-centric author here. :pThanks so much! :)
Gosh, Anne, you basically have one. If you went and signed up for hosting via ..."
Okay, I'm on top of that. I keep putting it off, but I think it's time to just do it.
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@ Jordan: Thanks!!@ Anne. Good luck!
@ Kari, okay, this is weird. My Dad wouldn't touch a grill when I was growing up. My mom did any bbq'ing in the family. I remember thinking my uncles were so cool because they bbq'ed. Now, my partner (boyfriend, but for 12 years) won't touch a bbq grill. I do all of the bbq'ing (and I love it). When we bought our new gas grill, he insisted on watching me light it the first few times, convinced I'd blow myself up. *lol*
Is there some deep psychological meaning to this? You know, replaying my childhood traumas? Because really, what are the chances....? *lol*
Ocotillo wrote: "@ Jordan: Thanks!!@ Anne. Good luck!
@ Kari, okay, this is weird. My Dad wouldn't touch a grill when I was growing up. My mom did any bbq'ing in the family. I remember thinking my uncles were so..."
LOL, I thought we were the only ones in the universe...Actually, you broke down and started grilling so evidently we are the only people who do not grill. Ever.
I can out-stubborn anybody . ;D
Kari wrote: "I can out-stubborn anybody. ;D "I'll put you head-to-head with my 9-year-old any time, Kari. Bring it. (And would you care to make a little wager? It's for her college fund)
Anne wrote: "Kari wrote: "I can out-stubborn anybody. ;D "I'll put you head-to-head with my 9-year-old any time, Kari. Bring it. (And would you care to make a little wager? It's for her college fund)"
My kids know that they either go to college (or a good technical school to learn a skilled trade) with the $ we've been plunking into their college fund -- or Mommy & Daddy are going on a kickass cruise. Several of them, actually. LOL. They believe we'd do it so we have no issues with the kids over college $. ;-p
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Order of Information
You're so good at this from the macro all the way to the micro level.
..."
Ha! Just noticed this. Yes. I could do a blog on this. It's something I haven't talked about much.
Josh wrote: "Nicole wrote: "While I'm on the subject of dream posts that I would like to read: here's my dream post for you, Josh:Order of Information
You're so good at this from the macro all the way to..."
I would love to read that, Josh.
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Josh wrote: "Thanks, Anne. I think it's actually one of the easier things to teach."Not to me. LOL
Anne wrote: "Josh wrote: "Thanks, Anne. I think it's actually one of the easier things to teach."Not to me. LOL"
Nor to me. LOL.
Just because we were talking about it, earlier... I got my own domain. annetenino.com. And you know what? Nothing else has changed. It's still the same blog theme, it's still at Wordpress. It was easy. I was shocked. Now I ramble.Oh! But I got an email account at my domain! I feel very special. :-D
Anne wrote: "Just because we were talking about it, earlier... I got my own domain. annetenino.com. And you know what? Nothing else has changed. It's still the same blog theme, it's still at Wordpress. It was ..."LOL. You knew that buying domain only gets you the domain name right?
Cleon wrote: "Anne wrote: "Just because we were talking about it, earlier... I got my own domain. annetenino.com. And you know what? Nothing else has changed. It's still the same blog theme, it's still at Wordpr..."Yeah, that's the weird thing. Wordpress is still hosting it. I think. Hey, can you check to make sure it's actually there? Maybe I'm crazy...
Anne wrote: "Cleon wrote: "Anne wrote: "Just because we were talking about it, earlier... I got my own domain. annetenino.com. And you know what? Nothing else has changed. It's still the same blog theme, it's s..."Yeah, Wordpress is still hosting it unless you also buy hosting space. Your new address works to me.
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I have to say that I've never found it so. But I think that's not because I'm an exquisite master of the skill. Okay, now you really must write about it. Please please!
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I have to say that I've never found it so. But I think that's not because I'm an exquisite master of the skill...."
I guess what I mean is that's one of the things that can actually be taught. There are a lot of things in writing that I am more and more prone to believe can't be taught. Or not easily taught without teaching other things first.
Josh wrote: "Nicole wrote: "Josh wrote: "Thanks, Anne. I think it's actually one of the easier things to teach."I have to say that I've never found it so. But I think that's not because I'm an exquisite mas..."
So, in your experience, what are the things that can be taught and what are things that can't be taught or at least harder to teach?
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I know this question wasn't to me, but it's interesting enough that I'll try and answer too... later. I've gotta think about it. :)
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Yeah, I agree.
edited to add: Or maybe it could be that certain teachers can teach certain concepts more easily? There's definitely stuff that can't necessarily be taught, though, except maybe in a one-on-one way? (I'm thinking of things like the creation of sympathetic characters.)
Nicole wrote: "Cleon wrote: "So, in your experience, what are the things that can be taught and what are things that can't be taught or at least harder to teach? "You're gonna have to give me a few hours on thi..."
I hope we don't take too much of your time, Josh & Nicole. Sometimes I kinda feel bad asking so many questions. :)
Nicole wrote: "I'm thinking of things like the creation of sympathetic characters."Will you give me a definition of "sympathetic character"? I've never been clear on this.
Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but a sympathetic character (in the literary sense) is one that the reader can relate to. So a sympathetic villain is one who does bad things, but we can sympathize with him, because he feels human.
As opposed to cardboard cutouts of nasty black-hatted villains and white-hatted heroes who do no wrong but seem unapproachable.
Edit: I sometimes feel as if "empathetic character" would be a more precise term, but maybe not. And besides, it sounds an awful lot like 'empathic character' which is something else entirely. *grins*
Re teaching: I can't speak for teaching writing, but I do make a decent living teaching other subjects. What I find often (not always) makes the difference between an easily taught and not so easily taught skill is how abstract or 'fuzzy' that skill is.If the skill can be taught by 'algorithm', it is easier to teach. By algorithm, I mean a step-wise or cookbook approach, with directions (though not necessarily numbered, 'do it in this order' directions') for specific actions to take. Stir, cook over low heat, measure this. In this sense, mathematics and problem solving are easily taught, as is grammar (though not necessarily easily *learned*, depending on the student's learning strengths).
If the concept is more about 'getting a sense for' type skill, that can be difficult as hell to teach. It involves analyzing example after example, both good and bad, not once, twice or three times, but sometimes over years. Artistic eye would be an extreme example of this, but to some degree, I think story telling as a whole is.
Maybe that's all boring. But to me, understanding why a skill is simple or difficult to teach can help us devise ways to do it effectively.
Um. May I suggest that teaching is a fuzzy skill? :)
And for the record, I'd also be interested in hearing which writing topics y'all find hardest to teach. I'm going to make a wild guess and say 'pacing' is hard. But maybe that's because I don't totally understand it. :D
Ocotillo wrote: "Um. May I suggest that teaching is a fuzzy skill? :) "
So is learning! :D
So is learning! :D
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Q&A with Josh Lanyon
Books mentioned in this topic
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The Well of Loneliness (other topics)
The Selfish Gene (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Julie Smith (other topics)Bernard Cornwell (other topics)
Robin McKinley (other topics)
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Astrid Lindgren (other topics)
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Kari wrote: "I am quake confused.
The way I see it and understand it...You're supposed to start your book at a point of action at the last possible moment. Any later than that..."
Were you looking for something like this?
I found it in James Scott Bell's Plot & Structure - Write Great Fiction.