Writing Questions for Josh Showing 1,601-1,650 of 4,753

[Oco]

Oh shoot. Josh. Great column and great ideas for fleshing out characters. Thanks! (just got all distracted by the other topic -- I can be excitable). :D

[Josh]

When I say 'elf' you think nature, pointy ears, big eyes, slight of build, elegant, long-lived, 'good' beings that are usually fair-haired. If you are an avid reader of fantasy, there are also the 'dark elves'. These are a different race of elves that are built similarly, but have dark (dusky) skin, dark hair and eyes, often live underground and are traditionally associated with more malign forces.

The drow. Yes!

[Oco]

Josh wrote: "When I say 'elf' you think nature, pointy ears, big eyes, slight of build, elegant, long-lived, 'good' beings that are usually fair-haired. If you are an avid reader of fantasy, there are also the ..."

Yeah. The drow. It's not my favorite type of fantasy (elves) and I was thinking, "there's another word...." That's it.

[Josh]

Ocotillo wrote: "Yeah. The drow. It's not my favorite type of fantasy (elves) and I was thinking, "there's another word...." That's it.
..."

I was thinking when I first came across them, how different they were from the usual concept of elves. Very intriguing.

[Sagajo]

I read Jim Butchers urban fantasy about Harry Dresden and I have to say the first 10 books drove me crazy because the author just wrote such STUPID females characters. I wonder if he is aware of it or if he unconciously think of females that way?

[[deleted user]]

Ocotillo wrote: "Kate Mc. wrote: "I read an amazing back and forth between a reader and an author on a review thread a while back. The reader/reviewer was ..."

Ouch.

This might actually be a little more complex..."

Actually it was post-apocalyptic fantasy, sort of retrograde medieval society loosely (with a few supernatural elements) based on what looked a lot like Arab vs. European conflict. Guess who were the strong indomitable heroes?

That doesn't negate your point at all. The cultural subtext is very much there. Some things are just closer to the surface and a bit more obvious. My point was that our own biases and filters are always in place, and in ways we aren't really aware of but an outside audience might be.

[Oco]

@ Kate.

Oh yeah. And that wasn't meant to take from your point at all. More like it brought up another one, that yeah, stands apart from what *actually* happened on that particular thread.

And to punctuate your point, I'd add that just because we are a member of said 'minority' doesn't mean we are immune to it. I.e., just because I'm female doesn't mean that I won't sometimes inject sexist bias into my writing.

Here's something. I don't think I have yet written a story where one of the characters wasn't a racial minority. This is because I care about these things and because... hell, I don't know why. Opportunities to examine conflict in that arena. Knowing that there aren't enough minorities in fiction. Growing up in a non-white culture. Lots of reasons. Anyway, I'm Caucasian. And whenever I write minorities, I petrified that I'm going to offend someone. Maybe they'll be 'overreacting' (whatever that means), maybe it'll be because I showed a bias I'd been unconscious of, but regardless, I feel like I'm just asking for it! But I feel like I can't let that stop me from trying, you know? I'd feel worse if I only wrote WASPs.

Anyway. Yadayada.

[[deleted user]]

Ocotillo wrote: "@ Kate.

Oh yeah. And that wasn't meant to take from your point at all. More like it brought up another one, that yeah, stands apart from what *actually* happened on that particular thread.

And to..."

Yes it's a balancing act, and I think it's probably impossible to avoid offending someone who insists that their own personal experience is the only possible "truth".

Having just read The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-time, as well as some of the reviews, it was painfully obvious that you can't win. Some reviewers were saying "that's exactly what it's like to deal with high functioning autistics", or "that's what my Asperger's brother says his life is like", while others were insulted and felt that it was a total misrepresentation of their own experience, that it was profoundly insulting.

So you do your best and you try to show your own perception of "truth", being as aware as you can. What else can you do?

[Josh]

So you do your best and you try to show your own perception of "truth". What else can you do?

That's it exactly. You do your best and you try to remember that no matter how sincere you are, how good your best is (meaning carefully researched), it will not find favor with everyone.

[Oco]

I know and believe all that. Still scary. :D

My grand hope is that when/if it happens, I behave with dignity and grace.

[Anne]

Ocotillo wrote: "@ Kate.

Oh yeah. And that wasn't meant to take from your point at all. More like it brought up another one, that yeah, stands apart from what *actually* happened on that particular thread.

And to..."

I know exactly what you mean. So far, I've played it safe and wrote racial minorities who've grown up in white families (essentially), but I'm going to have to push myself farther.

This whole discussion reminds me of a Sharon Shinn book,
Heart of Gold: A Novel. There are basically two racial groups in her world, one is golden-skinned and one is blue-skinned. It's pretty interesting.

[Blaine]

Interesting discussion. I've never consciously thought about racial minorities in my stories, but my bad guys have never consciously been a different race than my good guys.


@Josh: interesting article. I'll have to take a closer look to that in future. Although, the politics part will be hell to do (my political awareness is ... let's not go there)

Though a very good friend/writer of mine is very into politics and writes the most complicated political intrigues (sf/f)
I keep trying to get him to submit them somewhere. (though he's still editing most of them as well)

[Nicole]

Josh wrote: "That's too bad. I always enjoy your thoughts! "

Aw... I had thoughts. I even wrote them down but for some reason could not make my comment stick on to the thread, no matter what I did. (In some ways I am a total lame-o when it comes to troubleshooting computer problems.)

The gist of it was that I'm glad you brought up political affiliation because you're right, it doesn't show up except for in the most shallow form of discussion of gay rights for as in:

Should gays have rights? Hell, yeah!

As if it were that simple...

Where's the factionalism? The infighting? The sea of total apathy? The willful degenerate contingent? The misguided sloguneers?

And that's just within the gay community. :)

That doesn't even get into foreign policy issues. Or water rights. Or bans on smoking in public.

So, yeah, I dug that you suggested thinking of political affiliation because it's a graspable window into character worldview.

I was thinking of the next column I write for Wave being about the necessity of acting all of your characters, instead of just the protagonist. (This is, of course assuming that she ever invites me back.) And your thoughts on character really synced up with what I've been pondering of late.

[Liade]

Nicole wrote: "JI was thinking of the next column I write for Wave being about the necessity of acting all of your characters, instead of just the protagonist. (This is, of course assuming that she ever invites me back.) ..."

Good chance that she may do so - there were tons of comments to your post after all, more than can be said of some others. Comments didn't include any of mine as I didn't want to appear lame enough to just write: "Oh, that's why XYZ was such a boring book". Thanks as always for your posts - I like posts with meat, not just hot air. Nice change.

[Anne]

Nicole wrote: "I was thinking of the next column I write for Wave being about the necessity of acting all of your characters, instead of just the protagonist. (This is, of course assuming that she ever invites me back.) And your thoughts on character really synced up with what I've been pondering of late. "

I've been thinking about this lately, too. Actually, what you said in your post on Wave made me think about it even more.

I write a lot by "feel", like if I'm 'feeling' the character. And usually I feel one of the MC's more than the other (which led to my editor calling one of my newest characters a cypher, and he's right). I've been trying to make myself think it out more, and acting it out (love the green army men idea, BTW) is really helping. The thing that always kills me is having to figure out what someone would do given x,y and z motivation and having to think about it to get there, not just go on instinct.

[Anne]

Darn it all, I have more to say about that.

Okay, the other thing I finally realized is that when my characters have the Big Reveal, they don't usually do it all at once. Like, they have a little reveal ("oh, this IS more than sex") and they adjust, then another little reveal ("I can't actually imagine being with someone else") and etc, until the Big Reveal comes and BAM! "Oh, I'm in love. Duh."

If I put it all in a block, it's like emotion-dump.

[Nicole]

@Octillio, Kate, Anne

When I was writing Turnskin, and thinking a lot about writing characters of different race and differing degrees of otherness, I did quite a bit of reading. Kenji Yoshino's Covering was very, very interesting:

http://www.kenjiyoshino.com/covering.htm

[Kari]

I really need to write a multiple POV book again. I've been writing first and limited 3rd for a year solid and didn't realize it til now.

O.O

ETA: I'm thinking that ain't good, btw. LOL

[Nicole]

Liade wrote: "Thanks as always for your posts - I like posts with meat, not just hot air. Nice change."

You're welcome. I think that Josh and I share a common goal in that we both seek to improve our entire genre one sentence at a time. :)

It's enlightened self-interest, in the most classic sense.

[Nicole]

Anne wrote: "The thing that always kills me is having to figure out what someone would do given x,y and z motivation and having to think about it to get there, not just go on instinct."

Reading some books on acting would probably give you some tools to make this process easier. I like The Actors Field Guide by Ed Hooks. He also wrote a book called Acting for Animators that I haven't read yet, but I'm very keen to. (I'm waiting for the new edition to come out in September.)

And then there are the classics, such as An Actor Prepares by Stanislavski.

[Nicole]

Anne wrote: "Okay, the other thing I finally realized is that when my characters have the Big Reveal, they don't usually do it all at once. Like, they have a little reveal ("oh, this IS more than sex") and they adjust, then another little reveal ("I can't actually imagine being with someone else") and etc, until the Big Reveal comes and BAM! "Oh, I'm in love. Duh.""

I think what you are talking about here is scene progression and pacing, which I'm really hoping that Wave will be able to convince Astrid Amara to write a guest column about, since Astrid is so good at it.

(I am editing Astrid's story for Irregulars right now. Excellent pacing as usual.)

[Anne]

Nicole wrote: "@Octillio, Kate, Anne

When I was writing Turnskin, and thinking a lot about writing characters of different race and differing degrees of otherness, I did quite a bit of reading. Kenji Yoshino's C..."

Oh, that looks good. I think that would even be worth owning. This is totally something I'm going to continue to deal with.

[Anne]

Kari wrote: "I really need to write a multiple POV book again. I've been writing first and limited 3rd for a year solid and didn't realize it til now.

O.O

ETA: I'm thinking that ain't good, btw. LOL"

Why do you think it's isn't good? I'm feeling the opposite.

[Anne]

Nicole wrote: "Anne wrote: "The thing that always kills me is having to figure out what someone would do given x,y and z motivation and having to think about it to get there, not just go on instinct."

Reading so..."

LOL Theater was my first major. I use what I learned there all the time, but I never spent a lot of time learning different methods for getting into character. I just did it.

[Anne]

Nicole wrote: "Anne wrote: "Okay, the other thing I finally realized is that when my characters have the Big Reveal, they don't usually do it all at once. Like, they have a little reveal ("oh, this IS more than s..."

Exactly. Pacing. It's just this facet of it I only noticed recently. Before, for me, pacing was about getting to the end satisfied with the journey (for the reader). Doing some of what LC was talking about, the sort of seismograph approach to the plot (no quake, little quake, rest, bigger quake, calm, the Big One, aftermath, aftershocks). It's now that I'm trying to make this character less of a cypher that I realized I had given him very little emotion, and what I did give him he dumped out all at once, at the end.

[Nicole]

Anne wrote: "LOL Theater was my first major. I use what I learned there all the time, but I never spent a lot of time learning different methods for getting into character. I just did it."

Well, I'd say the major difference between acting in theater and acting for writing is playing all the parts simultaneously. You know--the one man show. :)

[Kari]

Anne wrote: "Kari wrote: "Why do you think it's isn't good? I'm feeling the opposite."

I don't want to become known as The Chick Who Only Writes Single Character POV. LOL

Plus...certain stories play better in multiple POV. The last few of mine haven't been, but I'd like to return to that mindset. Fortunately, I think the zombie story is almost certainly going to require multiple POV to do it right.

[Nicole]

While I'm on the subject of dream posts that I would like to read: here's my dream post for you, Josh:

Order of Information

You're so good at this from the macro all the way to the micro level.

(I have no idea how anyone would address this subject in 1000 words or less, but I'd nonetheless love hear what you had to say about it.)

[Nicole]

Anne wrote: "no quake, little quake, rest, bigger quake, calm, the Big One, aftermath, aftershocks"

When you go into aftershocks, you've started a new book with a different dynamic. Classically a structure might look like this:

no quake, little quake, rest, bigger quake, calm, the Big One, aftermath

or in another structure

the Big One, aftermath, aftershocks, calm, the Biggest One ever, resolution

[Antonella]

Nicole wrote: "When I was writing Turnskin, and thinking a lot about writing characters of different race and differing degrees of otherness, I did quite a bit of reading. Kenji Yoshino's Covering was very, very interesting:

http://www.kenjiyoshino.com/covering.htm "

Wow, this man writes interesting books! BTW also his last one seems good: ''A Thousand Times More Fair - What Shakespeare's Plays Teach Us About Justice''.

And I suppose I never mentioned that I loved

[Blaine]

Anne wrote: "what LC was talking about, the sort of seismograph approach to the plot (no quake, little quake, rest, bigger quake, calm, the Big One, aftermath, aftershocks). "

I missed reading about this earlier, but I really like how LC put that.
I need to copy that down somewhere :)

[Blaine]

Nicole wrote: "Anne wrote: "no quake, little quake, rest, bigger quake, calm, the Big One, aftermath, aftershocks"

When you go into aftershocks, you've started a new book with a different dynamic. Classically a structure might look like this:

no quake, little quake, rest, bigger quake, calm, the Big One, aftermath

or in another structure

the Big One, aftermath, aftershocks, calm, the Biggest One ever, resolution"

Endless possibilities it seems.

[Anne]

Nicole wrote: "Anne wrote: "no quake, little quake, rest, bigger quake, calm, the Big One, aftermath, aftershocks"

When you go into aftershocks, you've started a new book with a different dynamic. Classically a ..."

Oh, that's a good point. I think of the aftershocks as the epilogue (I tend to write one later, even if I never do anything with it), but putting it into the same narrative does kind of start the ride over, doesn't it?

[Nicole]

@Antonella

I think you actually did mention that to me once. :)

I haven't read Yoshino's next book cos I actually don't really know my Shakespeare that well.

Covering did change my perspective on several small, but significant issues of personal freedom and personal expression, though.

Plus its full of beautiful language, like this, wherein he describes his feelings around the time of high school:

I would not have been able to say that I was gay and these others were straight. I knew only that I was asked not to be myself, and that to fail to meet that demand was to make myself illegible, my future unimaginable. I hoped time would soften the difference between others and me, but knew it would do the opposite.

[Cleon Lee]

You guys always have the most interesting discussion when I am sleeping. lol. Anyway, after I read most of my stories, they're all have the Big quake in the middle. My latest story goes like this... tension, Big quake, aftershock, calm, little quake, aftershock, sex, the end. LOL.

For the life of me, I can't figure out how to make the Big quake as the last part of the story.

[Nicole]

Cleon wrote: "For the life of me, I can't figure out how to make the Big quake as the last part of the story."

I think you'd have to give a brief description of some story events before I could take a guess about how to move the Big One.

[Cleon Lee]

Nicole wrote: "Cleon wrote: "For the life of me, I can't figure out how to make the Big quake as the last part of the story."

I think you'd have to give a brief description of some story events before I could ta..."

For my HSD story, the plot is like this: setting & background, confrontation with Lucifer (the big quake), healing & long talk with Raphael (aftermath), epilogue.

For the last story I submitted, the plot is like this: a guy likes another shy guy, woo him but it only annoys the shy guy, the shy guy gets drunk, the guy takes him home & take care of him, the shy guy changes his mind asks the guy out for date, brief confrontation with the shy guy's ex, they make love, pillow talk. The end. lol.

[Nicole]

Cleon wrote: "For my HSD story, the plot is like this: setting & background, confrontation with Lucifer (the big quake), healing & long talk with Raphael (aftermath), epilogue."

What is an HSD story?

[Cleon Lee]

Nicole wrote: "Cleon wrote: "For my HSD story, the plot is like this: setting & background, confrontation with Lucifer (the big quake), healing & long talk with Raphael (aftermath), epilogue."

What is an HSD story?"

Oh, sorry. That's the free story for the M/M Romance group Hot Summer Days challenge where each author writes a story based on a picture and a prompt. Kari, LC, Taylor, Jordan, Anne, Blaine, Kaje, and I participated.

[Nicole]

Cleon wrote: "Nicole wrote: "Cleon wrote: "For my HSD story, the plot is like this: setting & background, confrontation with Lucifer (the big quake), healing & long talk with Raphael (aftermath), epilogue."

Wha..."

What were the picture and prompt?

[Cleon Lee]

Nicole wrote: "Cleon wrote: "Nicole wrote: "Cleon wrote: "For my HSD story, the plot is like this: setting & background, confrontation with Lucifer (the big quake), healing & long talk with Raphael (aftermath), e..."

This is the link to the prompt with the pic. http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/... because the original link for the picture has been deleted.

Um... you are not going to read my story, aren't you? Because.. um... I am dead nervous.

[Nicole]

Cleon wrote: "Um... you are not going to read my story, aren't you? Because.. um... I am dead nervous. "

Well, I will if I can figure out where it is. Why does the first part say Cleon and the next parts say JenMC? Are they different stories or do you just have different screen names?

[Anne]

Blaine D. wrote: "Anne wrote: "what LC was talking about, the sort of seismograph approach to the plot (no quake, little quake, rest, bigger quake, calm, the Big One, aftermath, aftershocks). "

I missed reading abo..."

I think it was in the comments at Jessewave after Nicole's post, actually. LC stated it differently, too, but I couldn't remember exactly how, and the seismograph idea popped up.

[Cleon Lee]

Nicole wrote: "Cleon wrote: "Um... you are not going to read my story, aren't you? Because.. um... I am dead nervous. "

Well, I will if I can figure out where it is. Why does the first part say Cleon and the nex..."

Oh, my God. I don't think the story is very good though. This is the link to my story: http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/5.... Start from message #3. Btw, Jen is M/M Romance group moderator who posted all the stories in each thread.

I am supposed to post the PDF on GR, but I was too busy last month.

[Anne]

Cleon wrote: "You guys always have the most interesting discussion when I am sleeping. lol. Anyway, after I read most of my stories, they're all have the Big quake in the middle. My latest story goes like this....."

I would say it goes small quake, tension, earth grumbling, calm, small quake, calm/tension, big quake, big quake, aftermath (the second big quake's in the shower). Unless you're talking about a different story.

[Cleon Lee]

Anne wrote: "Cleon wrote: "You guys always have the most interesting discussion when I am sleeping. lol. Anyway, after I read most of my stories, they're all have the Big quake in the middle. My latest story go..."

LMAO, yeah, the sex are earth-shattering, aren't they? I think yeah, your description is right except in the newest version I add the scene that is a medium quake, confrontation with Aaron's ex, before the "big quake" aka the sex scene.

[Anne]

Cleon wrote: "Anne wrote: "Cleon wrote: "You guys always have the most interesting discussion when I am sleeping. lol. Anyway, after I read most of my stories, they're all have the Big quake in the middle. My la..."

Oh, yeah, the scene I didn't have a chance to read. Anyway, I definitely think your big quake comes at the end. In the middle, when they start sort of dating, that's more like two techtonic plates sliding past each other, trying to figure out where the other's fault line is.

[Kari]

I am quake confused.

The way I see it and understand it...You're supposed to start your book at a point of action at the last possible moment. Any later than that and the story would no longer make sense.

Spoils of War starts with Micah's capture, but only so the reader can feel & sort of experientially know how what happened to him shaped Micah into adulthood. And then skips ahead to Eli taking him from Herra. And then it gets worse.

I Omega kicks off with Cal finding Gabriel. KaBOOM. And then it gets worse.

I begin every book with the Moment of Change (quite often cataclysmic change that knocks my POV hero on his ass) immediately followed by the "...and then it gets worse."

I'm not grasping the trembler & mini-quake concept. >:-/

[Oco]

Just catching up...

Kari wrote: "I am quake confused.

The way I see it and understand it...You're supposed to start your book at a point of action at the last possible moment. Any later than that and the story would no longer mak..."

Kari, I hear you, because it isn't totally working for me either, and since I spent quite some energy thinking about not starting stories too early, I tend to think the way you do.

I am sort of getting what people are saying, though--I think of it as a saw-toothed pattern of rising and falling action so that over-all the action is rising to crisis, but on the way up that slope to the climax, it is like there are mini-climaxes and partial denouements. This doesn't mean you don't start where the action has started, though.

Gosh. This would be so much easier with a drawing like a graph...

The trick about starting the story is learning not to start with long explanations but to jump right into the story with both feet (this is what you are talking about, right?) So from second zero, the story is speeding up. But advice I've seen (though I guess it isn't the only way to write a story) says you jump from mini-crisis to mini crisis. Ugh, feel as though I'm making a hash of explaining this.

Okay. Thought I remembered one place I'd seen this. Do you by any chance have the book Writing Fiction: A Guide to Narrative Craft. I *highly* recommend it if not. In it Burroway uses Cinderella to illustrate this structure, where those mini-crisis points are (I'm quoting from her book): "You can't go to the ball" says the wicked stepmother, "You must be home by midnight" says the fairy godmother, the clock strikes 12, "You may not try on the slipper" says the evil stepmother, and finally, the climax, the slipper fits.

Edit: AHA!! Found a scan of the figure! Go here: http://lmmartin.hubpages.com/, scroll down and choose his link "Good writing #5, the plot thickens...", and scroll down just a little ways until you see this 'graph' (more a diagram, actually, if you have an allergy to the word 'graph') that looks a bit like an upside-down checkmark. Sorry, I tried to link directly but it wasn't working.

The earthquake model doesn't work for me (especially since I happen to know earthquakes don't work that way *lol*), but viewing it this way does.

Hope that helps some. I'm not sure I use that model as effectively as I could (there's so MUCH to remember to do right!!), but I understand the basic concept. It also provides a nice way to outline the bones of a story -- identifying the mini-crises that will carry you to the climax.

Nicole/Josh? That seem about right?

[Oco]

@ Nicole. Thanks for the rec. Not just for writing, but it sounds like the kind of non-fic that I enjoy.

Not sure if this is along the lines of points he is making in the book, but I got in an argument with a fellow writer on LJ (not as in fight, as in intellectual argument that had both of us thinking hard -- it was pretty cool) some time back about how one should portray minorities. Her sense was that if one were to incorporate a Black man (say) as a character, he should look/sound/act no different than any other White character you might create. So that if readers forgot he was Black, that was a good sign. But I'm uncomfortable with that. Not because that doesn't happen -- it most certainly does -- but because to ONLY portray Black men that way sends the message that the 'White' way is the correct way to behave.

I do see her point, by the way, and I don't think it is cut and dry. But I kind of like the idea of trying to capture cultures that are associated with ethnicities and see how those cultures have an equal validity as the ones that we (Caucasians) tend to uphold. Or, e.g., in the case of gay men, if all of our stories try to show how gay men are 'just like' straight men, are we essentially invalidating the twinks, the effete, and all other of the wonderful varieties of people and behaviors that exist.

I am WAY oversimplifying here, by the way. I hope anyone reading realizes that I'm aware of that. :/ But maybe you get my meaning.

Anyway. Yeah. I want that book. Thanks.