Q&A with Josh Lanyon discussion
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Writing Questions for Josh
Cleon wrote: "Starting a story with description of the decor of a cafe (the cafe and its owner is the central of the story), yea or nay?"Oh, I missed this. Generally, one wants to open a story with action, not description. However, what Kaje said, probably no rule needs be followed off a cliff.
I rewrote the opening of a couple of my first novels after having this impressed on me, and I have to say that they improved significantly.
Hmm... I think I better rewrite my first paragraph, besides my story is no way near fine lit (and is not meant to be one.) lol. Thanks for the suggestion, guys.
Action doesn't necessarily mean high action, btw. Dialogue counts. Just the story is moving immediately to hook in the reader. You can even do something like begin with a few lines of dialogue between the owner and another character in the cafe, then back off to describe the cafe through the eyes of the POV character. As long as those few lines of dialogue are actually meaningful (related to plot, and ideally, raising immediate questions in the readers mind that they want to have answered).Um. I'm not published, should point out. But I've READ a lot on the craft. For what it's worth. :)
Cleon wrote: "Hmm... I think I better rewrite my first paragraph, besides my story is no way near fine lit (and is not meant to be one.) lol. Thanks for the suggestion, guys."Go with what works for you. When I stop and think about it, Life Lessons starts with a descriptive paragraph (Although the character shows up immediately afterward) so I can't even follow my own rules.
Ocotillo wrote: "Action doesn't necessarily mean high action, btw. Dialogue counts. Just the story is moving immediately to hook in the reader. You can even do something like begin with a few lines of dialogue betw..."I think you are making perfect sense. Don't worry about published or not. A good advice is a good advice no matter who said it. :)
As a general philosophy, I see it like this. There are a thousand rules about what makes a good novel. That is one of them. They are all excellent rules and should be followed. However if every author followed 100% of them 100% of the time, we'd be screaming for someone to break the rules. Even one book following all of them perfectly (if there was such a thing) would probably put out an unremarkable book. OTOH, break too many of them, and your novel is horrid. There is a balance in there, and to some degree, judicious breaking of rules can make your writing style yours.It may be that opening your story with a description will lose a few readers. Or it may be just what the story wants. And maybe those lost readers (if you have them) wouldn't have enjoyed your style anyway. Who can say. It'd sure be easier if the lines weren't so muddy. :)
That's my take on it all, anyway. Which... I dunno. Makes me sound a lot more easy-going about writing than I am... heh.
...was outside weeding and thinking about this (what I just said) and felt like offering a caveat for the record. For myself, as an amateur, I try to follow those 'rules' as closely as I can. Figure that purposeful breaking of rules is maybe best left to adepts. I have a hard enough time writing as it is. :)
Cleon wrote: "Starting a story with description of the decor of a cafe (the cafe and its owner is the central of the story), yea or nay?"As a reader I want to know why you are describing whatever. I think it is called conservation of detail. If I put time in picturing something the writer is describing, there should be a payoff. It used to be novels almost always started out with a long descriptive passage (often including the surrounding scenery and the weather). I'm glad that is out of fashion (I always just skipped them, and then once in a while I missed something I actually needed).
Have you read Cut & Run? They do a ton of over-describing in that book (the later books get much better). I don't want to read about the MC's eating a meal and be told about every fork raise and bottle sip and glance around, when none of that matters.
Josh wrote: "Please just stay away from redheads! No sexual appeal at all! IMHO. I usually opt for a tactful "chestnut" or "sorrel." But Tucker, in Fair Game, is red-headed."
REally? Guess it flew under my radar or it made no impact!
BTW: After many months of hesitation on reading Dark Tide (because I didn't want to read the end of the series)- It is a definite 5 stars and beyond!I don't want to spoil it for those who haven't read the last book in the Adrien English series...but you surprised me with another fabulous story and a surprise ending.
THANK YOU JOSH LANYON. ..for Adrien English.
Jane wrote: "BTW: After many months of hesitation on reading Dark Tide (because I didn't want to read the end of the series)- It is a definite 5 stars and beyond!I don't want to spoil it for those who haven't ..."
Isn't it a great ending? And Jake has one of the best lines in the history of romance novels in that book. We're a horrible influence here; we try to get everyone who's waiting for the end of the world before they read Dark Tide to just bite the bullet and do it.
With Kari describing how she found a character of hers had the same name and unusual profession as someone in real life, albeit a common name, I have to ask who here Googles all their character names? Some of them? Josh, do you do this? Seems like you would get a tone of hits for anything run-of-the-mill.
What do you do with what you find? I mean, there are hits on most names. How do you decide what's okay or not? Like, there's an elderly Tony Hart who was an artist who's now deceased. Not much relation to a 25 yr old high school teacher. But somewhat famous. Do you not use that name?
I only don't use the name if it's something that I think most people will recognize. Keep in mind, I don't know who most TV/movie stars are. So I basically decide based on what they are famous for and when. Your average modern-contemporary artist isn't going to be a recognizable name for most people, IMO. I'd use that one.If it was a famous person with a really common name -- like Tom Jones -- I might still use it, but I'd feel like I had to work a scene where he talks about it.
Jordan wrote: "The only other suggestion I got was Khan, a movie reference I didn't get. I canceled that name when I learned it was from a movie I've never seen and likely never will. (Sorry Tom, I know you really liked that name!) Even though it's a gender switch, Robin just seemed to fit. "I'm glad you didn't use that suggestion. Firstly, it's a surname, not a first name. Secondly, it's a Muslim name (the common one), which would bring up a lot of connotations if used in a contemporary novel (if you're writing fantasy or sci-fi, it matters much less, if at all, of course). Still, you should be aware of the baggage it does bring up.
Some names, for instance, indicate community, language, religion, caste and a vast amount of other stuff that gets automatically invoked for knowledgeable readers.
I've seen mainstream novels with major bloopers in this regard, e.g. a character with a Muslim name and then described as a Hindu. Not that it can't happen. It's just that it's rare enough that affected people will assume you're clueless, rather than so deeply aware that you're referring to the rare exception.
And lastly, boy was that a bad movie.. ;)
ns wrote: "I've seen mainstream novels with major bloopers in this regard, e.g. a character with a Muslim name and then described as a Hindu. Not that it can't happen. It's just that it's rare enough that affected people will assume you're clueless, rather than so deeply aware that you're referring to the rare exception. "Depends on where the characters come from. As an example, Indonesia was heavily influenced by Hindu and Buddhism before Islam. Names like Wisnu, Shanti, Shinta, are very very common among Moslems here. In fact, a lot of Moslems here name their children Western names too.
Anne wrote: "Jane wrote: "BTW: After many months of hesitation on reading Dark Tide (because I didn't want to read the end of the series)- It is a definite 5 stars and beyond!I don't want to spoil it for those..."
The words were simply breathtaking...inspired....new...and very poignant. Words that one could quote...should quote...it cuts to the heart (excuse the pun).
I have always loved redheads, any color. It is nice to have a character described but it is the actions and the feelings that really make the character for me.
Jane wrote: "Anne wrote: "Jane wrote: "BTW: After many months of hesitation on reading Dark Tide (because I didn't want to read the end of the series)- It is a definite 5 stars and beyond!I don't want to spoil..."
They were the redeeming factor for Jake, IMO. I mean, I was ready to forgive him anyway, but once he said that? He shot way past forgiveness.
SPOILER ALERT RE:DARK TIDES!!!------------------------------------
Josh really kept the love/hate relationship going! I didn't think love would find Jake and Adrien. I really thought it was over for them. What a spectacular ending!
Jane wrote: "SPOILER ALERT RE:DARK TIDES!!!SPOILER..DON'T READ ANYMORE!!
------------------------------------
Josh really kept the love/hate relationship going! I didn't think love would find Jake and Adrien. I really thought it ..."
Mod
My second novel, to be written in November is called All For Pazu, Pazu being one of the characters. Basically, everything that's being done in the novel is being done for Pazu, so it kinda fit. Otherwise, I can't really say how I choose a title. There is no set way I go about doing it.
And I can't plot something without knowing at least the MC's names. Thank God for baby name books. I've never Googled character names before. Just my penname. That was waaaaay more important to me to look up. There are too many character names to have to worry about.
Titles are brought to me by angels, appearing fully formed in my brain. Or maybe it's fairies, IDK.
FWIW, I sent an ER-Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeelp email to my editor re Brian's name and am waiting to hear back. The name itself is common. Name + career, however...maybe not. =(Book titling is worse than writing blurbs to me. Give me a few minutes, I'll give you a blurb. Ask for a title and I'll beg shamelessly for help on twitter, LMAO
Mod
Yea if there is something special and interesting about the cafe or if the cafe helps set a certain mood or tone. Just keep it brief.
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Ouch. I *am* one. :p
And uh, please. DO write redheads, people, maybe I'm vain, but I like them, and them being in vogue makes..."
The first true love of my adult life was a red head. ;-) I'm fond of red-heads.
I think Colin Bliss in The Darkling Thrush is a strawberry blond, now that I think of it. Sean in Dark Horse has chestnut hair. There must be others.
Mod
Yes! I think you basically want to follow the rules until you're comfortable with them and know them well enough to know when to break them.
Mod
I don't want to spoil it for those who haven't ..."
Thank you so very much!
Mod
I don't google character names, no. I spend a lot of time picking main characters names -- I use a baby name book like a lot of you. For supporting characters I usually select from things around me -- objects, books, magazines. I like that synchronicity. It feels lucky.
Mod
Mod
If he had been painting the scene before him he would have used only four
colors: Permanent Rose alkyd for the pink streaks in the fading sunset and the
reflections in the water; Dioxazine Purple alkyd for the shadows lengthening on
the creamy sand, the crevices of the rocks, the glint and gleam of water, the edges
of the pier; Cadmium Yellow alkyd to blaze from windows, for the dimples in
the sand, to limn the rocks, to gild the tips of scrubby, windblown grass, more
reflections in the water; Indigo oil for the tumbling waves, for the indistinct
forms of the buildings beyond, for the swift coming night.
Josh wrote: "This is the start of LOVERS AND OTHER STRANGERS. The protag is a painter.If he had been painting the scene before him he would have used only four
colors: Permanent Rose alkyd for the pink s..."
I loved the colours in this story, not just at the beginning. I love the whole story, actually. Despite the F-twins. It's wonderfully atmospheric.
Josh wrote: "This is the start of LOVERS AND OTHER STRANGERS. The protag is a painter.If he had been painting the scene before him he would have used only four
colors: Permanent Rose alkyd for the pink s..."
I'm an art major. I work in a museum. This story was amazingly visual for me. I felt like I could see everything exactly - through Finn's eyes. Yet, saying that, it wasn't my favorite among your stories - which I happen to love with a passion, btw.
Which just tells me what? LOL.
Is it that I was so busy looking that I forgot to feel?
Josh wrote: "This is the start of LOVERS AND OTHER STRANGERS. The protag is a painter.I remember the first time I read these opening words and thought - this is one of the most unusual and dramatic beginnings to a story. They draw you in immediately, and you feel that you are actually listening to the voice of a painter. Amazing!
Karan wrote: "Josh wrote: "This is the start of LOVERS AND OTHER STRANGERS. The protag is a painter.If he had been painting the scene before him he would have used only four
colors: Permanent Rose alkyd for t..."
Isn't it funny when it's something you know inside and out, you often forget to get lost in the story because the details niggle at you. That's what happens to me, at least.
Anne wrote: Isn't it funny when it's something you know inside and out, you often forget to get lost in the story because the details niggle at you. That's what happens to me, at least. Perhaps that is what happened. I know I spent a lot of time mixing paints in my head.
Mod
Fine so long as the decor of the cafe reveals a lot about the character, is no more than 4 or 5 sentences long and includes the character interacting with the decor in some way that reveals something about the conflict of the story.
For example:
The dollar bill was still crooked. Azizi could see it from all the way across the restaurant's dining room. It hung in its plain wooden frame in the server's station, sloping slightly downward and to the left as it had every second since their grand opening, when his mother, in a moment of misguided pride had driven that fateful nail through the fine oak paneling, forever marring the tasteful decor with the constant reminder that running this business was all about money.
Mod
I concur. Even if you don't know why you're following a standard practice, it helps to get into the habit of doing so. Though I would add that the time to think about and then boldly follow rules would be in the editing phase, rather than the generative phase, where thinking about rules too much might impede your ability to, you know, finish a story. Cause remember: the only thing that all great novels ever written in any human language have in common is that they are completely done.
Josh wrote: "This is the start of LOVERS AND OTHER STRANGERS. The protag is a painter.If he had been painting the scene before him he would have used only four
colors: Permanent Rose alkyd for the pink s..."
Sits cross-legged at your feet with my hands in my lap..looking up at you. "Please....go on"
Josh wrote: "This is the start of LOVERS AND OTHER STRANGERS. The protag is a painter.If he had been painting the scene before him he would have used only four
colors: Permanent Rose alkyd for the pink s..."
That's beautiful, Josh! As always :D
Thank you!
Nicole wrote: "Cleon wrote: "Starting a story with description of the decor of a cafe (the cafe and its owner is the central of the story), yea or nay?"Fine so long as the decor of the cafe reveals a lot about ..."
That's also excellent! Thank you very much, Nicole. :)
Nicole wrote: "Cause remember: the only thing that all great novels ever written in any human language have in common is that they are completely done." So true, Nicole. Starting is the hardest part for me. After I get over writing a page or two, the story usually flows.
Jane wrote: "SPOILER ALERT RE:DARK TIDES!!!"Jane, BTW, while we are careful about not having spoilers in the general threads, we do have the discussion threads for the individual books (where spoilers are fine). You can post any comment you want on the book thread without worries (the assumption is that people have read the book already, or don't mind spoilers).
If you do want to post a comment in a general thread that includes a spoiler, you can use the spoiler html tags -they will automatically hide that text for you which can be opened/closed with a mouse click. See the
link above the edit box ("Some html is ok") for how to use it...
Cleon wrote: "Nicole wrote: "Cause remember: the only thing that all great novels ever written in any human language have in common is that they are completely done." So true, Nicole. Starting is the hardest p..."
I LOVE this, Nicole. Is that an original or did you hear it elsewhere? You have the best advice. Telling us to write a facsimile of the book we want to write really freed me up (for a while, until I forgot. But I remembered again).
Mod
Aw, thanks, Anne. I think that one might be an original--mainly because it would be like me to state the obvious. (ha!)
Mod
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Q&A with Josh Lanyon
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Depends on how you handle it :)
I'd say go for it, if that is what you feel you need to do and worry about it later.
If it's important to the story and the character. I'm sure it'll be fine.