Q&A with Josh Lanyon discussion
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Writing Questions for Josh
L.C. wrote: "You don't want to do anything that will pull your readers out of the story, and names that sound the same, or too many names starting with the same letters can do that. I try make a point of keepin..."I agree. I read a book in which the two lead characters started with the same first initial and it was difficult keeping them straight. It DOES interfere with the flow of reading.
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You don't want your two protags to share similar names. For one thing names are so evocative of the character and so you want the two main characters to contrast each other, if just subconsciously, in the reader's mind.
Secondly, anything that confuses readers, jars them out of the story, is a mistake.
So unless there is a particular point in having the names sound similar -- like they're twins or relatives or identity thieves or that kind of thing, I'd keep the names different.
I've had readers complain that names like Sara and Laura are too similar, but that's not common. When you get into that kind of thing you're dealing with someone's idiosyncracies.
Okay, Kyle's getting a name change.I love reading how everyone else picks names. Like Blaine, the name thing for me is key, but I used to go more by intuition than list. That's how I ended up with three characters in one book whose names begin with L. Now I'm starting to use the list (I think you might have told me that before, Blaine).
I pick the year of birth (roughly) for my charactes and google boy names for that year. Then I make a long list and start crossing them off as I use them.
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Guess I'm being contrary, and I apologize for that, but I'm a little..."
I think this is very true. I also think, from years of teaching writing, that certain mistakes are very common with new writers and those are pretty much what I try to address.
As far as voice and style, that really takes years to develop. In fact, most writers won't develop it all because they do cling too tightly to some of the currently popular writing advice offered by people who know as little (or less) than they do.
I had a copyedit recently from an editor who had memorized the "rule" about "head hopping" but didn't actually understand what lies behind the concept. So I had all these idiotic "possibly head-hopping comments."
It's either head-hopping or it isn't. If the reader isn't sure, it's not. How's that for a rule of thumb? If one character is observing and interpreting another character's emotional state from his actions and expressions, that's not head-hopping. If the writer, nameless, faceless omniscient narrator, describes the characters, that's not head-hopping. We've got a whole generation of "editors" who don't actually know what head-hopping is.
Or action of independent body part or a complex dialog tag. These are people who have read very little or didn't understand what they read and they have these rigid, artificial notions of what "good" writing is. As though "good" writing was developed twenty years ago and everything before that was crap.
It's mind-boggling.
That said, MOST new writers do absolutely misuse dialog tags, fall victim to head hopping, and suffer from flying independent body part actions. (OUCH! Get that arm out of my eye!) Which is why these "rules" were developed.
Most new writers do find it difficult to balance too much information with too little. They write cliches.
It takes time and practice -- but it also takes some guidance from people who know what they're doing. And those people are experienced editors.
Experienced editors are in short supply in this genre. Probably in ebook publishing in general, but particularly here in m/m fiction. Mostly what we have are other more experienced (usually in a limited way, though) guiding less experienced writers.
You do not have this in mainstream. And there's a good reason for it. In mainstream publishing, you have dedicated editors who take the art of editing as seriously as we take the art of writing. They are skilled and knowledgable so they usually know that there are only guidelines, not rules, and that what works and what doesn't is largely a matter of reader taste and education.
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I've been very lucky in my m/m editors. And there are some m/m writers who are very good editors too. Nikki Kimberling and Jordan Castillo Price are both good examples of strong writers who are also very good editors.
I'm sure there are others, but I'm can't think of them off the top of my head.
Blaine wrote: "Jordan wrote: "Ocotillo, I think you bring up a very valid point. And it shows between my two very different crit groups. Some people in one group comment that mentioning what my character is weari..."I like to know what the characters look like. I NEED to know and also what they are wearing (but not all the time). But I do need a snapshot everyonce in a while otherwise it is literally blank for me and I wander..and wonder about their appearance.
Josh wrote: "I've been very lucky in my m/m editors. And there are some m/m writers who are very good editors too. Nikki Kimberling and Jordan Castillo Price are both good examples of strong writers who are also very good editors. "The day I merit a full edit from either of these two is the day I'll know I've begun to arrive... :)
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I know there are some people who don't want any description, but that's pretty much a minority. There has to be *some* physical representation for the character, actors are hired to play parts, we're not all floating intellects. Getting to decide how the character looks is the writer's privilege, but I want to know as soon as possible so I don't form the wrong idea.
I have to say when I was very young, the wrong description could "ruin" a story for me. I did not like big, blond men. Period. :-D
Now, I can just go and relax with whatever the writer has devised.
Ocotillo wrote: "Josh wrote: "I've been very lucky in my m/m editors. And there are some m/m writers who are very good editors too. Nikki Kimberling and Jordan Castillo Price are both good examples of strong writer..."Ditto! :D
I read one piece of advice this way (to give credit, it was from a SF/Fantasy writer named C.J. Cherryh), and it makes sense to me as a rule of thumb. The reader will most likely put a face on the main protag that resembles theirs, because in order to immerse, they will on some level become that character. So describe once, early, then let the reader have the character they want. An exception (my thoughts, not Cherryh's) might be if it is important to keep in mind the physical description -- e.g., if race of the character is going to be important in the plot, then the writer should make sure that the reader keeps in mind that character x is black/asian/Hispanic, what have you, so that when that becomes important, they aren't jarred out of the story.About character names -- I read this, can't remember where, and I think it has some merit though I don't particularly follow it (maybe I should)? That readers associate hard letters in character names with alphas and other toughs. Jake might be an example, though Kirk would be even more so. Softer letters for a 'softer' character. Adrien. :)
Josh wrote: "I know. I like to know just enough -- hair color, eye color, build. But -- maybe this is just me and maybe this is weird -- I form impressions of the character from the names, so names are importan..."I do try to get the essentials (hair color and eyes, and a little about build) in early. because I also quickly improvise if the writer doesn't say anything. But description isn't my best thing, so sometimes I miss providing that info in a timely manner. I've been doing names entirely by instinct (the characters almost always show up complete with names) but I've got to get more methodical. Also start a spreadsheet with names I've used, esp. minor characters. Fourteen novels and a bunch of shorts, and I'm losing track. It will be good to change my werewolf Carter's name, because I just used that name elsewhere. Now I just need a good alternative...
Josh wrote: "I have to say when I was very young, the wrong description could "ruin" a story for me. I did not like big, blond men. Period. :-D "You mean, like, oh I don't know... Jake?
Kaje, I started on the spreadsheet when I looked at something I hadn't worked on in a while and realized I'd named my protags exactly the same names as in a newer piece I was working on.Names are very important to me, too. I usually can't get very far in a plot without the MC's being named. Titles are becoming more important to me, lately.
Anne wrote: "Kaje, I started on the spreadsheet when I looked at something I hadn't worked on in a while and realized I'd named my protags exactly the same names as in a newer piece I was working on.Names are..."
God, I can't do titles. My books are listed by number until I actually have to submit them. (Life Lessons was Book3 until the day I hit the send button; Ranger's story is Book14) I would love some title-selection guidelines if Josh wants to give us his wisdom on that.
Jake was one of the first heroes I didn't automatically assume was a brunet. And I actually found him attractive (in my head).Coming up with titles while I'm still writing is a recent development for me, that's for sure. It just seems to keep happening.
Kaje wrote: "Anne wrote: "God, I can't do titles. My books are listed by number until I actually have to submit them."LMAO, I was on twitter begging for a title for
a couple of weeks ago, back when it was still calling it my sooper seekrit projekt. Collared was my working title, but I was afraid it wasn't strong or distinctive enough...Well, doesn't matter since my editor demonstrably disagreed, lol.Some titles leap out at me right off. Like In the Red. ITR became ITR while I researched forensic accounting. I had the title before I even had the characters. I Omega was like that, too. IO was IO before I finished the first chapter. Love it when that happens because otherwise, you might as well take a crowbar to my skull to pry the title out.
Lou wrote: "I usually figure out the title when I'm at least third of the way through the story. Up to the point I use a working title. Names are sometimes easy, sometimes hard. I have thing for names starting..."LOL -- "J" names are my downfall, too. I'm also developing too much affection for "L" names, lately.
Lou wrote: "It's funny, I have problem seeing Jake Riordan as a blond. I keep imagining him with dark hair. It didn't affect my enjoyment of the books though."Me too! LOL!
Kaje wrote: "Josh wrote: "I know. I like to know just enough -- hair color, eye color, build. But -- maybe this is just me and maybe this is weird -- I form impressions of the character from the names, so names..."I also agree that the name has to fit the character because we all have to 'picture' it in our head. So I like that you use strong names for your more dominant characters and softer names...for the softer ones. For me...it adds so much to the story. As I've said before...I think your characters are outstanding!
I also like that you seem to research areas where you put your characters too....or time periods.
Blaine wrote: "Jordan wrote: "Anne, as for your naming problem, yeah, I would stay away from the same first letter/sound, unless there's a good reason in the story for it. I do tend to hear names in my head so ev..."I read a gay novel about twins and so he named his characters with very similar names(as in real life) But...unfortunately it didn't work on the written page! Like Bobbie and Robbie...I was totally lost as to who was doing what! Unfortunatly, it kind of ruined the story for me. I know he was leading up to twins in bed....but I was lost in translation! LOL!
Jane wrote: "Blaine wrote: "Jordan wrote: "Anne, as for your naming problem, yeah, I would stay away from the same first letter/sound, unless there's a good reason in the story for it. I do tend to hear names i..."I hate when people do that in real life too. I used to babysit for a pair of twins and believe me, you do not need anything to make them harder to tell apart!
Kaje wrote: "Jane wrote: "Blaine wrote: "Jordan wrote: "Anne, as for your naming problem, yeah, I would stay away from the same first letter/sound, unless there's a good reason in the story for it. I do tend to..."I went to school with a bunch of kids whose parents were hippies so they were all named Crystal. Not lying. 4 (or was it 5?) girls. They went by their middle names.
And people think I'm weird, there's the mystery.
L.C. wrote: "Lou wrote: "It's funny, I have problem seeing Jake Riordan as a blond. I keep imagining him with dark hair. It didn't affect my enjoyment of the books though."I imagine everyone as a brunet. ;-)"
I agree. Blondes don't do it for me.
Josh wrote: "By the way, I'm not saying every mainstream editor is a jewel, I'm saying there's an important difference between a writer concerned with their own writing career who acts as a sometimes editor, an..."BTW Josh: Did you mention that you have a werewolf story?
When I played around with my pseudo's Facebook today, I stumbled upon this great essay by Josh: http://notyourusualsuspects.blogspot.... . I want to comment on the point of using "craziness" as the motive. Twenty years ago, when forensic psychology and profiling did not exist or unknown, it's possible to use craziness as an excuse as having random motive no one understands or if the murderer is serial killer. It was not recommended at that time, but now it is even a bigger mistake.
Nowadays, this does not hold true anymore. Even serial killer has a logical motive (logical in his mind, of course). One of my favorite series is Criminal Minds, a group of FBI profilers whose specialty is tracking down serial killers.
Kaje wrote: "I hate when people do that in real life too. I used to babysit for a pair of twins and believe me, you do not need anything to make them harder to tell apart!..."I remember Josh had a pair of twins in "Lovers and Other Strangers" (in The Art of Dying) called Finn and Fitch. I think even Josh himself got confused a couple of times... *G*
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Interesting!
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You mean, like, oh I don't know... Jake?"
Yes! Isn't that funny?
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Not sure I understand the question?
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I have to make a conscious effort to keep all my protags from being slender, dark-haired men with light eyes. ;-D
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ME?
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I also like that you seem to research areas where you put your characters too....or time periods. .
Thank you, Jane. I'm sure I get the occasional thing wrong, but it's not for lack of trying.
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I remember Josh ..."
And the funniest part of that was a reviewer who complained about the confusion and then did the same thing herself! :-D
Josh wrote: "I would love some title-selection guidelines if Josh wants to give us his wisdom on that. .Not sure I understand the question?"
I think Kaje would like to know how you come up with the titles for your books.
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I wa..."
The serial killer thing can be really effective but too many inexperienced writers settle on it because they want to try their hand at mystery and the serial killer seems easy. Built in drama and no pressure to create believable motivation and sequences of behavior/event.
As a writer you have to keep questioning why you're making some of the choices you do. And you have to remember that just because an idea -- plot, theme, motif -- is new to you, it doesn't mean it hasn't been done a zillion times before. So you have to find fresh ways of keeping these things fresh and unique to you.
Josh wrote: "Anne wrote: "Josh wrote: "I have to say when I was very young, the wrong description could "ruin" a story for me. I did not like big, blond men. Period. :-D "You mean, like, oh I don't know... ..."
It is funny, but more or less the same thing happened to me -- I keep writing MC's with blond hair, even though I much prefer dark. I guess just the blond ones walk into my head.
Anne wrote: "Josh wrote: "Anne wrote: "Josh wrote: "I have to say when I was very young, the wrong description could "ruin" a story for me. I did not like big, blond men. Period. :-D "You mean, like, oh I don..."
Please just stay away from redheads! No sexual appeal at all! IMHO.
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I usually opt for a tactful "chestnut" or "sorrel." But Tucker, in Fair Game, is red-headed.
Jane wrote: "Anne wrote: "Josh wrote: "Anne wrote: "Josh wrote: "I have to say when I was very young, the wrong description could "ruin" a story for me. I did not like big, blond men. Period. :-D "You mean, l..."
Go look at the picture on the M/M thread for Hawk's Sparrow http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/5... and then say that.
Josh wrote: "Please just stay away from redheads! No sexual appeal at all! IMHO. I usually opt for a tactful "chestnut" or "sorrel." But Tucker, in Fair Game, is red-headed."
YAY!! I happen to love redheads :) (and yes, I barely noticed when I was reading it ... *sigh*)
Actually, I'm not fussy about hair colour, apart from my inborn dislike of fake blond (says the one who dies her hair purple).
Kaje wrote: "Go look at the picture on the M/M thread for Hawk's Sparrow http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/5798... and then say that. "
It's the combination of pale skin, red hair and blue eyes that works on him :) (though ... waaaay to young for me)
Josh wrote: "Please just stay away from redheads! No sexual appeal at all! IMHO. I usually opt for a tactful "chestnut" or "sorrel." But Tucker, in Fair Game, is red-headed."
How weird is it that I remember Tucker as being black? And I have read that book at least twice... #selectivememory
Starting a story with description of the decor of a cafe (the cafe and its owner is the central of the story), yea or nay?
Josh wrote: "Please just stay away from redheads! No sexual appeal at all! IMHO. I usually opt for a tactful "chestnut" or "sorrel." But Tucker, in Fair Game, is red-headed."
What????!!
He is, isn't he. I forgot all about that.
Please just stay away from redheads! No sexual appeal at all! IMHO. Ouch. I *am* one. :p
And uh, please. DO write redheads, people, maybe I'm vain, but I like them, and them being in vogue makes up for a lot of mean-ness I got as a kid. :)
edit: freckles too. :)
Blaine wrote: "It's the combination of pale skin, red hair and blue eyes that works on him :) (though ... waaaay to young for me) ..."Way young for me too, but the skin and the expression and that chin; you can't say that's not sexy. (And I get to admire from a safe and respectful distance, even if he is young.)
Ocotillo wrote: "Please just stay away from redheads! No sexual appeal at all! IMHO. Ouch. I *am* one. :p
And uh, please. DO write redheads, people, maybe I'm vain, but I like them, and them being in vogue makes..."
I have to hink hard. But there was a time I had at least one redhead in every story (mostly with green eyes as well - I had this silly child's wish to have red hair and green eyes)
and I love freckles :)
Actually, my eldest had them as a kid and he hated them .... until he fell in love with a new classmate who had freckles. Suddenly freckles weren't so bad any more
Cleon wrote: "Starting a story with description of the decor of a cafe (the cafe and its owner is the central of the story), yea or nay?"Personally, I want a main character in the first paragraph, although you can describe the setting through him (like, "Jojo shifted his weight on the hard iron chair that was putting a permanent waffle-print on his butt...") Having said that, fine literature has been done with a descriptive first paragraph.
Heh. I had to stop myself from writing redheads, too. My first two novels had them, and I had to slap my own wrist, and say, NO. Write dirty blondes and brown hair.I joke that it's vanity, but really, I wanted me somewhere in the story, I think. Subconsciously.
Hey, as long as the protag doesn't have 'raven hair and sapphire(or emerald) eyes', I'm good. :)
edit: actually, I think it was Josh where I first saw someone described as having 'whiskey' eyes, and I think I swooned.
I want to create a dreamy or fairy tale-ish atmosphere in the story. It's a Christmas story after all. Ok, I am going to post the first paragraph on group to see if it works.
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Q&A with Josh Lanyon
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As for naming characters, it's a ton of fun! I have a baby name book that I use. Normally, I go through, by the first letter and determine what first letter sounds like my character, go through that list of names, and if I don't find anything, pick another letter until I find the right name for a character. Then I go back and do it again for the next MC. I don't always do that for more minor characters though, which is probably how I stupidly ended up with Torrance, Thane, and Taylor in my current novel. lol.
Hanging out with writer friends over dinner, I asked them to come up with a new name for evil Taylor, and one of them named a terrible coworker I've heard a lot about over the years... and thus, Taylor got changed to Robin. I don't usually ask other people for names, but I was tired, didn't want to have to come up with something else, and thought it would be interesting to see what they came up with. The only other suggestion I got was Khan, a movie reference I didn't get. I canceled that name when I learned it was from a movie I've never seen and likely never will. (Sorry Tom, I know you really liked that name!) Even though it's a gender switch, Robin just seemed to fit.