Q&A with Josh Lanyon discussion
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Writing Questions for Josh
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No worries, I wasn't derailed. I've just been offline editing. I have, in fact, been editing a brand new JL story. Bet you wishes you could read it, huh?
*gloat gloat*
Nicole wrote: "ns wrote: "Nicole, my deepest sympathies and humblest apologies for having derailed your conversation back there. I'd say anything you write on those subjects would be of interest to us, or well, a..."you meanie, you!
LOL
Mod
You know, this is really interesting and I'll have to come back to it since its too late for me to take the hour it would take to reply. But the short version is, yes, it's true that writers often try to have ultimate control of everything a reader thinks when reading is really more of an interactive activity than that.
Mod
As for trying to have control over the reader... I admit I've had thoughts on doing that very thing. It's hard because I know what's going through my mind, and I want to make sure that shows through. I'm afraid they'll miss it if I don't spell it out, even though I know I shouldn't write a scene like that. But for me, that's what it is. I want to make sure the reader sees what I'm seeing. Of course, I am trying not to spell everything out, because if you can work in whatever it is you want to say in a subtle way, it packs way more of a punch when the reader figures it out. And, as I've often said to writers when I'm reading a book, "I'm not stupid, I can figure this out for myself, you don't have to spell it out!" lol. "said to" being a relative phrase as I'm usually talking to myself out loud.
Yup. That's me, I talk to myself all the time. Living alone does that to a person I guess.
But, having a crit group or a beta reader who can say that, yes, your point came across without you spelling it out, is a big help, and maybe more writers need to have that. Or better editors to point it out.
Nicole wrote: "But the short version is, yes, it's true that writers often try to have ultimate control of everything a reader thinks when reading is really more of an interactive activity than that."I've never thought about the reading experience as a kind of an interactive activity. That's an intersting thought. It's like when you let three people watch the same movie and ask them afterwards what they saw it can feel as if every one of them saw something different. So I suppose it's the same with books. No two people read the same story. They fill in the blanks according to their own background experiences and preferences and have a certain picture of the heroes in their head.
For an example I'm not fond of comparing the mc's of a novel to some actor. It seems to never fit. We have some wonderful photos around here of Steve McQueen because Jake is supposed to look like him. I like Steve McQueen and all, by the Jake in my head doesn't look like him. Not a bit. ;-)
Calathea wrote: "For an example I'm not fond of comparing the mc's of a novel to some actor. "I never do that either. Actually, I've never felt I visualise much when I read, yet I'm drawn in just as much as those who do.
I do, however, try to use visual aids when writing a story, even if it's just to keep their features straight in my head :)
Reading definitely is interactive. Even reading all the HSD stories I can see how different people experience them, not to mention the different level of enjoyment.
I love when people name what grabbed them and I realise I was grabbed by something else entirely.
Jordan wrote: "And, as I've often said to writers when I'm reading a book, "I'm not stupid, I can figure this out for myself, you don't have to spell it out!" lol. "said to" being a relative phrase as I'm usually talking to myself out loud. "
I love books that treat us as intelligent beings, aka, don't spel everything out, but dazzle us with the less is more concept :)
I also like it when things are left to the imagination.
now all I hope is that I actually measure up to those requirements when I write ...
Mod
ns wrote: "Don't let Anne's deluded notion that I know of what I speak contaminate you, too. "Hey, I've been reading your comments and they make a lot of sense to me; Anne doesn't have that much influence. :)
The occasional reminder you provide to watch out for the follies of writers and pet peeves of readers is good for my writing (as in, can this be cut to make it cleaner? A question I should address more often.) Keep writing, and I'll keep taking note (and snarking about it sometimes, so don't you take that to heart either.)
Nicole wrote: "ns wrote: "The other symptom here is the tendency to treat the reader like an empty vessel whose head has to be completely populated with their movie."You know, this is really interesting and I'l..."
This is my weakness. Every time I put in that extra hand gesture or eye-roll? I think "Do I really need this?" I usually convince myself I do. It's an illness.
Calathea wrote: "For an example I'm not fond of comparing the mc's of a novel to some actor. It seems to never fit."I HATE that, when we are told so and so looks like someone famous. I don't mind as much if there's a modifier, like "he looked like the poor man's Brad Pitt" or something. But just telling me he looks a little like Brad Pitt? Okay, how little? What parts exactly? I'd rather just envision him how I want. Half the time I don't even agree with the hair color of the characters I'm reading and I'm always changing it in my head (until the author jolts me back into reality by mentioning that yes, he is blond).
Actually, I really hate too much description of an MC, period. I want the minimum. And I don't need to know how big his penis is, either. Unless it's germaine to the story, as in
Seedy Business.
I'm on a rant this morning.
And I'm probably guilty of doing everything I hate. Although I don't think I've ever compared an MC to a movie star.
Mod
lol, in my current work, I realized that almost all of my bad guys have long black hair. I didn't even plan it that way. But one wears his down and stringy and the other pulls it back into a nice ponytail, because he's more sophisticated and not so deranged in the head. The description is important here because we don't know the one guy's name, but he has to be identified and is the connection between several crimes. I've already had to change one character's name, but I might have to change someone's looks too, just to tell them apart better.
Jordan wrote: "Interestingly enough, someone in my RL crit group has a similar pet peeve. She hates it when a writer describes what the person's wearing. To me, their clothing is an extension of who they are. But..."Hair, eyes etc. are fine, but for me they must come very early on in the story. Otherwise my brain will have already concocted pictures and any descriptions would just be confusing.
Jordan wrote: "But one wears his down and stringy and the other pulls it back into a nice ponytail, because he's more sophisticated and not so deranged in the head. "Okay, the ponytail thing would imply my BIL is not deranged, and I know that's not true.
Liade wrote: "Hair, eyes etc. are fine, but for me they must come very early on in the story. Otherwise my brain will have already concocted pictures and any descriptions would just be confusing. "It would be interesting to write something where the first paragraph is just the description and see if you could get it to read like it's not just a device to tell your audience what your character looks like.
Anne wrote: "It would be interesting to write something where the first paragraph is just the description and see if you could get it to read like it's not just a device to tell your audience what your character looks like. "..."My free story, Lies and Consequences starts like that, with him getting ready looking in the mirror. It's there because he has a persona he wears out clubbing and he's making the transition. I think it works, but one review did comment that you knew a book would be bad if it started with the hair and the clothes, so obviously there's a risk (they gave it one star, although I don't know how much the opening played into that.)
Kaje wrote: "Anne wrote: "It would be interesting to write something where the first paragraph is just the description and see if you could get it to read like it's not just a device to tell your audience what ..."First paragraph is a little extreme, but am I really the only reader whose brain conjures up pictures straightaway which can be difficult to remove by a "proper" description later?
Liade wrote: "Kaje wrote: "Anne wrote: "It would be interesting to write something where the first paragraph is just the description and see if you could get it to read like it's not just a device to tell your a..."I totally conjure up a picture almost immediately.
Mod
Wellllll, that's kind of the fun, isn't it? We create these worlds and so the temptation is to tell the reader every last flipping detail down to the throw rugs. :-D
But part of the fun of reading versus film is the reader gets to fill in those details her/himself.
And then there is all the emotional and psychological nuance that we are tempted to spell out for the reader. :-D But again, part of the reader's pleasure is not having us talk to them like little children. Allowing them to discover on their own. Even if sometimes the discovery may take one or two reads for some.
Letting go of some of that creative control is one of the hardest parts of writing.
What you leave out is every bit as crucial as what you put in.
Mod
Josh wrote: "What you leave out is every bit as crucial as what you put in. "Very true!
Jordan wrote: "The pictures I conjure up are always a little blurry, in reality. Sometimes I don't even have a face. Like, I can see everything they're doing, but not. It's hard to describe, and never helps my wr..."Oh, mine are totally blurry. But at the same time, once I've decided on light/dark colouring, characters' descriptions don't make any difference.
Jordan wrote: "The pictures I conjure up are always a little blurry, in reality. Sometimes I don't even have a face. Like, I can see everything they're doing, but not. It's hard to describe, and never helps my wr..."When reading I next to never see a face. It's more an impression of colours and built and feeling.
If I don't get the looks right in the beginning nothing, not even the best prose later in the book, can change that.
Mod
Josh wrote: "Exactly. And yet (this is the interesting bit for me) the cover models can be the right build and coloring and still be "wrong" as far as how I picture the characters -- even though I don't have a ..."Isn't that the truth? I was amazed at how closely the cover models matched my mental image (in spite of the almost-mullet). I was totally prepared for them to be way off-base. I did ask for a cover without faces, though. You know, a little objectification never hurt anyone, right?
Lou wrote: "Josh wrote: "Exactly. And yet (this is the interesting bit for me) the cover models can be the right build and coloring and still be "wrong" as far as how I picture the characters -- even though I ..."I rarely imagine the characters based on the cover. They're usually pretty off the mark anyway.
What I really hate is a horrible cover screwing up your first impression. That's the worst. You know, it doesn't always work to just have the torso, either, because their all perfectly hairless, and plenty of guys in M/M novels have body hair.As a side note, I used to not really like body hair on men, but then I started writing about it. It's very tactile.
Lou wrote: "Hehehe. A couple of bears in assless chaps would make a great cover. I'd buy that book!"LMAO I would so buy that book!
I like that MLR lets the author have a lot of cover input. They showed me the first mock-up for Life Lessons and one of the characters was all wrong, so I gave them the offending details and they found a much better choice (with chest hair because that was a relevant detail.) I hate those quasi-historical romances where the brawny highland warriors have waxed chests.
Kaje wrote: "I like that MLR lets the author have a lot of cover input. They showed me the first mock-up for Life Lessons and one of the characters was all wrong, so I gave them the offending details and they ..."Dreamspinner did this for me, too. They even changed little things that weren't particularly important (like I thought one guy should have a t-shirt instead of a button-down).
Nicole wrote: "No worries, I wasn't derailed. I've just been offline editing. I have, in fact, been editing a brand new JL story. Bet you wishes you could read it, huh?*gloat gloat*"
Touche... ns self-destructs with envy.
Not for nothing do I consider you to be the Grand Master Level Nine Black Ninja amongst us, Nicole! Sun Tzu is taking notes as I speak....
Nicole wrote: "No worries, I wasn't derailed. I've just been offline editing. I have, in fact, been editing a brand new JL story. Bet you wishes you could read it, huh?*gloat gloat*"
I am trying hard to pretend as if I didn't hear this.
Jordan wrote: "As for trying to have control over the reader... I admit I've had thoughts on doing that very thing. It's hard because I know what's going through my mind, and I want to make sure that shows through. I'm afraid they'll miss it if I don't spell it out, even though I know I shouldn't write a scene like that. But for me, that's what it is. I want to make sure the reader sees what I'm seeing."It's only a matter of time before we get the technology to download our internal brain images via a usb connection, but until that happens, artists are stuck creating art the old-fashioned, 21st century way. I do believe the best art occurs when the artist is able to view the art being created independently from the art in his/her mind. As important as it is for you to ensure the reader sees what you see, I'd stipulate that it's as important for you to be able to see what the reader will see on the page.
That's why I think it's very important to have breaks -- and read something else, which flushes one's memory cache, before you come back and review your work. If you've been immersed in only your book for weeks or months, it can be difficult to see what's on the page rather than your memory and the images of what should be there, given the sheer volume of persistent context in your head. The brain is masterful at showing us what it thinks we want to see, trust me. It also has a bad habit of taking unwarranted shortcuts. You have to be on your toes to outwit yourself.
"Of course, I am trying not to spell everything out, because if you can work in whatever it is you want to say in a subtle way, it packs way more of a punch when the reader figures it out. And, as I've often said to writers when I'm reading a book, "I'm not stupid, I can figure this out for myself, you don't have to spell it out!"
Exactly.
There's also one other point here -- for people like me, the experience of reading prose that's redundant or overwritten is like traversing a cluttered room crowded with furniture and objects. It's an obstacle course, and the traversal is slow and difficult. It makes for an exhausting and unpleasant reading experience. It's a mustard grey goopy experience.
Efficient prose is like walking effortlessly or sprinting even, on a well defined, smooth path through beautiful scenery. It's pleasant, quick and energizing. It's almost always a lovely color and texture and sensation.
ns wrote: "It's only a matter of time before we get the technology to download our internal brain images via a usb connection, but until that happens, artists are stuck creating art the old-fashioned, 21st century way. I do believe the best art occurs when the artist is able to view the art being created independently from the art in his/her mind. As important as it is for you to ensure the reader sees what you see, I'd stipulate that it's as important for you to be able to see what the reader will see on the page. "Personally I think if we lose that necessary step from inspiration to output/translation, we lose part of our humanity.
Anne wrote: "ns wrote: "It's only a matter of time before we get the technology to download our internal brain images via a usb connection, but until that happens, artists are stuck creating art the old-fashion..."Transfering images in our brain to writing is an artistic process. I am thinking that, if this technology ever existed, writing will still be relevant. Like photography and painting are separate art forms. Like reading and watching movies are different.
Cleon wrote: "Anne wrote: "ns wrote: "It's only a matter of time before we get the technology to download our internal brain images via a usb connection, but until that happens, artists are stuck creating art th..."It might allow for the separation of those who create written art and those who are story tellers. That was my point, really -- these are two distinct art forms and skill sets. In the best of all possible worlds, the former would be a subset of the latter.
Nicole wrote: "You know, this is really interesting and I'll have to come back to it since its too late for me to take the hour it would take to reply. But the short version is, yes, it's true that writers often try to have ultimate control of everything a reader thinks when reading is really more of an interactive activity than that. "My first post actually was triggered by your column proposal on "the critical importance of real-time events conveyed in scens vs. things like backstory or interior monologue".
I was trying to explain why I feel some authors fail at this and overwrite.
Most authors manage to avoid doing this just fine --I didn't want to suggest this was a wide-spread problem or anything. Just annoying when it does occur.
UPdated: So this is a topic of great interest to me, I wanted to add -- and am looking forward to anything you write in this area. Especially the importance of hooks. AMEN! Yes! I was cheering at your post on those.
I'd go so far as to say every chapter should end with a hook into the next chapter, every paragraph should have a hook into the next paragraph, every sentence should, yes, make you want to read the one that follows.
Anne wrote: "What I really hate is a horrible cover screwing up your first impression. That's the worst. You know, it doesn't always work to just have the torso, either, because their all perfectly hairless, ..."and that's why I spent hours trying to find the right guy for my 'Color Me' cover. Far too many bare chested men ...
ns wrote: "I'd go so far as to say every chapter should end with a hook into the next chapter, every paragraph should have a hook into the next paragraph, every sentence should, yes, make you want to read the one that follows. "So much of writing is intuitive, though. I wish I could plan these things out, but sometimes it's complete serendipity.
Anne wrote: "So much of writing is intuitive, though. I wish I could plan these things out, but sometimes it's complete serendipity. "Writing in an organic process
and I certainly don't plan every single thing from start to finish.
I have a very rough outline in my head and that's the route I'll travel and somewhere along the way the rest will get filled in.
ns wrote: "That's why I think it's very important to have breaks -- and read something else, which flushes one's memory cache, before you come back and review your work. If you've been immersed in only your book for weeks or months, it can be difficult to see what's on the page rather than your memory and the images of what should be there, given the sheer volume of persistent context in your head. The brain is masterful at showing us what it thinks we want to see, trust me. It also has a bad habit of taking unwarranted shortcuts. You have to be on your toes to outwit yourself...."
I think that's absolutely true, and for me the hardest part of writing. That's where I'm loving having Beta readers, which I didn't for the first three novels. Reading my own stuff, I skip over excess tags and understand cryptic dialog and get all my cultural references and vocabulary. It's so helpful to have someone else doing a reality check there.
And my characters tend to be wordy bastards. Haven't come in under 15,000 yet. I never plot/outline; just write through. My characters take over completely. I should be more logical and organized, but there's more stuff in my head than time to write it down. Someday I'll develop better work habits...
Sadly, the only time I come under 10k is if I'm just writing a sex scene. That's how HBtM started out, and it was under 3k at first.When I write for a call, I only write for the ones that have high word-counts, LOL.
I'm soliciting opinions on character names. I'm wondering specifically about names that start with the same letter. I have two protags who will be getting togetheer (of course), and their names both start with "L". One of my betas said he kept mixing up characters because their names started with the same letter. How do you guys feel about that? How about names that start with the same sound but different letters (Kyle and Collin is my current dilemma)?
Anne wrote: "I'm soliciting opinions on character names. I'm wondering specifically about names that start with the same letter. I have two protags who will be getting togetheer (of course), and their names b..."I had two characters in my new book beginning with C, and everyone mentioned it as a source of confusion (Thank-you guys and I will change one). I think C and K would not be a big problem because in reading the visual appearance of the word counts (But I don't hear the words aloud in my head when I read; those who do might feel it was still too close.)
Kaje wrote: "Anne wrote: "I'm soliciting opinions on character names. I'm wondering specifically about names that start with the same letter. I have two protags who will be getting togetheer (of course), and ..."I know, I'm thinking I need to change it to be safe. I wouldn't be bothered by it, but people who process differently might feel differently. I'm going to change a name I think.
I really, really wish I could go back and change Laslo and Logan's names, too.
Been out of the loop, too much going on, but just caught up with the last couple of pages of discussion and wanted to comment.Guess I'm being contrary, and I apologize for that, but I'm a little uncomfortable with strict prescriptions (and especially proscriptions) for good writing. Ala, how much of this or that is good, whether this or that is a pet peeve, that sort of thing. I think that all of the things mentioned can be good or bad, depending on whose hands it is in (and what type of story is being written). Gestures, physical descriptions, can fit with the story, or they can slow it down. One author might write best very spare, with attention to action and dialogue. Another may write lush descriptive prose -- either about people or places. All can be done well or poorly. How an author writes becomes their voice, and assuming basic competence, some readers will like that voice, some won't.
I think often when readers react to description (as one example) badly, it isn't that description itself is bad, more that the author tended to not use it effectively. A physical description can tell me a lot about a person, quite apart from just looks. So can gestures. A guy peeling a label off of a beer bottle while he talks is telling me a lot about his state of mind. I personally *like* those descriptions. They put me in the author's story. For myself, I am more interested in the characters of any given story than I am in the actual plot, so maybe that is why. But I don't think I'm alone.
As far as using movie stars to describe characters-- if I recall, Adrien is compared to Montgomery Clift. I had no problem with it, because Josh doesn't rely on this device, and it was inserted smoothly. And personally, it helped me envision Adrien. Because before that, I'd had a less than flattering image of Adrien in my head and all of sudden I thought, "oh!!! not a bookish skinny nerd, that is just his self-image!". Is the tactic overused? Yes. Is it often used clumsily or lazily? Yes. But I can't bring myself to say "it shouldn't be done".
Anyway. So yeah. I'd hate for authors reading this thread to be taking notes on what to stop doing because maybe whatever it is is something they do well. And maybe someone like me is looking for an author like them.
I love m/m romance. There are amazing stories out here and I've been swallowing them whole (and trying to write them myself). But one thing that bugs me a little is how predictable most of the 'voices' (authors) are. The writing tends to be spare, get from point A to point B style, and that sort of makes me sad. I mean, I like that kind of story, but wouldn't mind a little more variety. I love finding m/m with lush world-building, or sensual (as in appealing to all senses) depth, or strong character studies, or odd ideas to think about. I don't know if it is the influence of editors/publishers, or maybe just the needs of the genre or maybe that many m/m writers only read other m/m, or playing to the average for high sales... hell, I don't know. But for instance, my other favorite genre is SciFi, and the range of voices in that dwarfs that of m/m many times over.
Um. Thassal. :) Enjoying the discussion, really. Just wanted to speak my (inexperienced) mind on that.
Mod
My next M/M novel will be a sci-fi novel, so world building here I come! This will be my first sci-fi full length novel, so I have no idea how I'm going to handle it, but we'll see. I can't wait!
Anne, as for your naming problem, yeah, I would stay away from the same first letter/sound, unless there's a good reason in the story for it. I do tend to hear names in my head so even just changing the first letter from a C to a K might not work out if the name sounds like another name in the story. But, as Kaje pointed out, even as a writer you might not recognize that's a problem if you yourself don't hear the names. But, this is what friends and crit groups are for!
Jordan wrote: "Anne, as for your naming problem, yeah, I would stay away from the same first letter/sound, unless there's a good reason in the story for it. I do tend to hear names in my head so even just changing the first letter from a C to a K might not work out if the name sounds like another name in the story. But, as Kaje pointed out, even as a writer you might not recognize that's a problem if you yourself don't hear the names. But, this is what friends and crit groups are for! "I think I've mentioned this somewhere before, but I always put an alphabet next to me when searching for names to make sure I don't end up with the same begin letter.
And yes, I also check for sound.
I didn't used to (years back) until someone pointed out to me that I had far too many similar names, since then it's like a ritual. Start a story grab the alphabet and go to town on finding the right names :)
Of course, I LOVE the naming part. Especially with my fantasy stories. I use a name generator, sound all the names out that look interesting enough and then keep going through them until I've found the names of my MC's, the ones that fit.
After that it becomes a lottery. I have a new character, look at the sheet of names I collected and pick one, mostly random.
I'm like a kid in a candy store with names :D
Jordan wrote: "Ocotillo, I think you bring up a very valid point. And it shows between my two very different crit groups. Some people in one group comment that mentioning what my character is wearing is too much, but the other group doesn't mention that at all. And in fact, most people in the one group that did, didn't have that problem, just the one person really. So, yes, it really does depend on who's reading/writing the story as to how it comes out and is then perceived. "I don't absorb characters' features and clothing the way a lot of readers do. By the next page I may have forgotten it already.
So, if I don't comment on it, it's because it doesn't register with me.
If I do comment on it, it often means that it made me stop and think.
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Q&A with Josh Lanyon
Books mentioned in this topic
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Robin McKinley (other topics)
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