Q&A with Josh Lanyon discussion
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Writing Questions for Josh
Anne wrote: "Look at us, Blaine -- we're still avoiding writing! "Hangs head in shame.
I know ... I'll do better tomorrow.
It's nearly bedtime here anyway :)
Blaine D. wrote: "Anne wrote: "Look at us, Blaine -- we're still avoiding writing! "Hangs head in shame.
I know ... I'll do better tomorrow.
It's nearly bedtime here anyway :)"
Wish it was nearly bedtime here, then I could stop not writing.
Nicole wrote: "Calathea wrote: "And remember, that first reader is going to be an agent or editor. Tough crowd. These are people who have too many manuscripts to go through each day. They are itching for a reason..."I just wanted to comment that this is an excellent example of hooking the reader: I remember reading this excerpt some *years* before Ginn would publish the book and keeping hoping she would finish it ;-).
Mod
That said, even a brilliant opening -- and brilliant first three chapters will generally result (at best) in a request for a full.
Why?
Because unless you are a known commodity, the editor/agent is merely going to make the decision to see if you can pull off the promise of the opening chapters. No one, not even in ebook land, is going to contract you based on those opening chapters because 1 - any half way competent beginner can usually manage three good starting chapters, and 2 - authors don't always complete their half-started manuscripts.
So that first paragraph is very important, yes, and so are those first three chapters, but basically they merely serve to get the editor/agent to read the rest of the book. And the rest of the book is either there or it isn't. If the subsequent chapters don't live up to the promise of the first three, then no matter how brilliant those first three were, you aren't going to make the sale.
Mod
The risks of getting caught simultaneously submitting were pretty slim because the chances of getting published were pretty slim.
But then ebooks came along and all that changed. Now the odds are very high that you will be published and they are equally high that if you're simultaneously submitting, you're going to get nailed.
Some publishers are okay with it so long as you let them know if your work is picked up by another house (and that's the fair and responsible thing to do, anyway -- you should always let a publisher/agent know if your work is no longer available).
Some epublishers are not okay with SS which is fine if they have quick turnaround times. If they have slow turnaround times then you'll have to decide if you want to risk annoying a publisher you might really want to work with somewhere down the line.
Josh wrote: "I think the first paragraph is crucial and the first three chapters are make or break for the vast majority of unknown and unpublished authors. That said, even a brilliant opening -- and brilli..."
So, can I get some general opinions on whether (in this genre, for new writers) there should be sex somewhere in the first 3 paragraphs?
Mod
You have to look at your contract. Most publishers here and in mainstream will request that they have first refusal on the next book in a series or featuring major elements/characters from a work you've published with them. You can certainly see why that makes sense. And if you like the publisher and things are going well, signing up for a series is a good move for everyone.
Do not -- do not do not do not do not -- sign a blanket agreement for first refusal. Do not do this under any circumstances. Believe me, you are not that desperate to be published.
I've come to hate first refusal clauses because it means the death of a series if you're unhappy with the publisher. Or at least a sabatical while you wait for the contract to time out.
But here's a bright spot. A lot of the cross publishing in our genre negates the contracts anyway, as I was reading from Author's Guild. When you have one publisher doing ebook and another doing the print, they've both effectively negated first refusal rights.
Josh wrote: "Once upon a time it took months and months to get an answer from a publisher or an agent and while simultaneous submissions were generally frowned on (by publishers and agents) everyone did them be..."My general rule is to read the submission guidelines and follow them to a T. It's like the SAT's -- I don't want to get a 400 because I forgot to fill in a bubble.
Mod
Mod
It's become more and more common, but it did put a few noses out of joint when I started branching out a few years ago. However, I think it's just commonsense. Each publishing house has its own readership and you always learn something new from every editor you work with and publishers come and go pretty quick these days so you don't want all your eggs in one basket.
Diversify, diversify, diversify.
Mod
And those bedrooms better be clean, young ladies!!!
;-D
Josh wrote: "Anne and Blaine, you are not allowed to take part in any more discussion till your homework is finished.And those bedrooms better be clean, young ladies!!!
;-D"
LOL -- one of the things I did today to avoid writing is clean my bedroom. Not the husband's side - he's on his own.
I'm much farther, almost to the end.
Mod
Just as the violent or gruesome murder of an unknown victim in a prologue is a big yawn, so too is sex between so far unknown characters. Until the reader cares about the characters, it's just flying body parts.
(edited to add IMHO)
Mod
Ditto on that, plus in a romance a huge part of the tension comes from wondering just when and exactly how the characters are gonna finally do it.
So you don't want to blow your wad in the first paragraph.
So to speak...
(heh.)
Josh wrote: "Just as the violent or gruesome murder of an unknown victim in a prologue is a big yawn, so too is sex between so far unknown characters. Until the reader cares about the characters, it's just flying body parts...."
Good to hear, because I'm never gonna be able to get the guys together that fast. Even in the second book in the series (and the third) the sex waits until at least twenty pages in or so. Although I guess it could work if the sex only involved one of the MC's and he was starting out as a slut. But then it really is just flying body parts.
Mod
Hey, thanks! I've been thinking a lot about hooks recently.
So here's a question for youse guys: I'm supposed to guest blog for Jessewave in late August. Is there anything in particular that you would want to hear me talk about for about 1000 words? It's supposed to be entertaining both for writers and readers. The only idea I've got now, because of this conversation about hooks, would be titled something like, "What is Going On?" And focus on the critical importance of real-time events conveyed in scens vs. things like backstory or interior monologue.
Josh wrote: "So, can I get some general opinions on whether (in this genre, for new writers) there should be sex somewhere in the first 3 paragraphs? Just as the violent or gruesome murder of an unknown vic..."
You guys, I so appreciate your opinion, but what I meant to write was "First 3 chapters". I are lame.
Mod
It was not my kind of party.
Sure, some people might think the dead guy made it my kind of party, but that wouldn't be a fair assessment of my entertainment needs...
This one is 32 words long, and doesn't even give the main character a name. All we know is that the POV character is at a party, that there is a dead guy also at the party and that there is some cause to think that a person who knew this nameless narrator might conclude that he (or she, we don't know) might naturally include dead guys in all his (or her) party plans.
But who could not go on to read at least the rest of the page?
This is a good example of not telling too much, just the barest facts. By the end of the page we learn the narrator is a writer named Adrien, that he is at a Hollywood party because his book is being adapted into a film and that before the dead guy keeled over, he was boring the crap our of protagonist.
By the end of the first scene, which is less than 2 pages long, we see the narrator want spring into action to prevent this boring guys death, but be unable to perform CPR because he's just had pneumonia.
That's a very intriguing less than 2 pages and therefore a successful hook.
Nicole wrote: "So here's a question for youse guys: I'm supposed to guest blog for Jessewave in late August. Is there anything in particular that you would want to hear me talk about for about 1000 words? It's supposed to be entertaining both for writers and readers. The only idea I've got now, because of this conversation about hooks, would be titled something like, "What is Going On?" And focus on the critical importance of real-time events conveyed in scens vs. things like backstory or interior monologue. "My observation is that some people who write are not really authors, but transcribers. They create this wonderful story in their head, and have its visual movie rolling in their mental screen, with every detail in vivid technicolor. And they proceed to describe it in great detail, faithfully.
It's the movie in their head that's the work of art, their baby, not the written product. When they evaluate their written product, they're comparing its fidelity to the original movie in their head.
Thus it's very difficult for them to see the written product on its own, in isolation, adrift from their angsty weighted moorings.
This is not really writing, it's transcribing. The typical tendency of these authors is to be extremely verbose --put down every thought that the characters might think, every emotion they feel and every action they take. It's annoying overwriting.
The other symptom here is the tendency to treat the reader like an empty vessel whose head has to be completely populated with their movie. So the reader doesn't get to fill in any of the picture, draw their own conclusions. They're force-fed the whole image, rather like your doting grandma stuffing you with that fourth extra sausage during holiday dinners that you know you don't have room for. You feel like a congenital idiot, no matter how well meaning they are.
Less *is* more. And by god, it's so much more that authors oughta be charged for every extra unnecessary word they write, not the other way around. And this has nothing to do with a long novel or a short novel. It has everything to do with using words with precision and care and respecting the words on the page, and not in your head.
Yes, there are absolutes. Some things may be subjective but that doesn't mean there aren't absolutes.
ETA: Note, not all people who claim to be "visual" suffer from this. Some of them manage to write simply and cleanly and minimally, like Cleon. Cleon, whatever you do, don't change! :)
ETA2: And the reverse is also true. Not all verbose writers are overwriting. You can write powerfully and intensely even if you're long...(Anne's HDJ story being a perfect example).
ETA3: I can't spell people.
Er, sorry...cough, pet peeve got away from under me...
ns, you say the smartest things. I lurve you. C'mon, you know you wanna beta for me.
Nicole wrote: "Is there anything in particular that you would want to hear me talk about for about 1000 words?"I don't know if you can do it in 1K words, but a look at how the rise of vendor popularity has changed the publishing model and how we, as writers, can proactively adapt to the changing marketplace.
LOL
But I'm serious! :D Used to be, a larger percentage of sales came direct from publishers. Readers would go to their favorite publishers on Crack Tuesday (and still do, don't get me wrong). To increase exposure, writers needed to court Publisher A's customer base and spread out to Publisher B's, too. Hopefully, readers would follow the writer from A to B & vice versa, blurring the readership & ticking up sales -- everybody wins. (Which still happens, don't get me wrong.)
Now, though, an increasingly larger percentage of sales is coming from vendors like Amazon.
On the one hand, I think I've benefited from it. Publishers are more open to stories that don't quite fit their regular readership. If you've ever had a publisher tell you they loved your story, but it didn't fit their catalog? Thar ya go. With the rise of vendors, the lines defining customer base have blurred. Even if it doesn't fit the pub's customer base, if it has a readership, you're in the game.
OTOH...I think it's a whole hell of a lot easier to get lost in the white noise of new releases.
Just something I think about it.
Anne wrote: "ns, you say the smartest things. I lurve you. C'mon, you know you wanna beta for me."That sounds like a lot of work and a lot of responsibility Anne. Plus I think it involves being polite. That's a death sentence right there....
ns wrote: "Anne wrote: "ns, you say the smartest things. I lurve you. C'mon, you know you wanna beta for me."That sounds like a lot of work and a lot of responsibility Anne. Plus I think it involves being ..."
Okay, imagine this scenario:
You: "Anne, your'e smoking crack if you think people will believe this tripe."
Me: "Really? Tell me what's wrong with it and I'll do my best to fix it."
Me: Oy! Who finished the cheesecake!!! Crikey!!
What kind of cheesecake? Chocolate marble?
Seriously, I make an amazing chocolate chip cheesecake.I'm a really good cook. I only admit this under the influence of 3 beers or more. You like BBQ ribs? I gotcher ribs right here, baby.
Anne wrote: "Seriously, I make an amazing chocolate chip cheesecake.I'm a really good cook. I only admit this under the influence of 3 beers or more. You like BBQ ribs? I gotcher ribs right here, baby."
NS starts collecting donations for Anne's visit back to rehab. C'mon, people! Give it up!
Thank you very much, Nicole, for answering my question. Anyway, I went to my board and searched for the post where someone suggested to post little portions of a story instead of longer works.The one who said it was not the editor/publisher, but the editor/publisher did not correct her either.
For what it's worth, Carlos, I think you are going about this in the right way, giving us small little portions to critique the grammar, instead of longer passages. In this way, you can analyze each sentence and what we're saying. You don't even have to think about 'the story' this way. When you get the grammar and punctuation coming easily to you, then you can write a story. Keep rewriting this one thing until you get it right, instead of skipping to a new one.
Um... wrong. If I have to wait until my grammar is correct and write a paragraph at a time and dissect it to death, when am I going to finish a story? Or I have to wait until my grammar is perfect? *snort* I am really glad to have truly wonderful friends who wants to read my drivel before they're copyedited. And I have not finished a novel, but I've finished some stories short though they are.
ns wrote: "Anne wrote: "Seriously, I make an amazing chocolate chip cheesecake.I'm a really good cook. I only admit this under the influence of 3 beers or more. You like BBQ ribs? I gotcher ribs right here..."
Dude, seriously. My friends have recipes they've collected from me and they've titled the collection "Drinkin' and Cookin'"
Sad, no? But though shalt eat well at my house.
Anne wrote: "ns wrote: "Anne wrote: "Seriously, I make an amazing chocolate chip cheesecake.I'm a really good cook. I only admit this under the influence of 3 beers or more. You like BBQ ribs? I gotcher ribs..."
I can't see anything sad with it, Anne. lol. Drinkin' & Cookin', add the sex and you've got Great Time.
Cleon wrote: "I can't see anything sad with it, Anne. lol. Drinkin' & Cookin', add the sex and you've got Great Time. "SAY WHAT? WAIT UP! HOLD ON THERE! No one said I would have to have SEX WITH ANNE! You betas....
ns wrote: "Cleon wrote: "I can't see anything sad with it, Anne. lol. Drinkin' & Cookin', add the sex and you've got Great Time. "SAY WHAT? WAIT UP! HOLD ON THERE! No one said I would have to have SEX WITH ..."
Oh, ns, c'mon. Orgy, schmorgy.
ns wrote: "Cleon wrote: "I can't see anything sad with it, Anne. lol. Drinkin' & Cookin', add the sex and you've got Great Time. "SAY WHAT? WAIT UP! HOLD ON THERE! No one said I would have to have SEX WITH ..."
Aww... you're no fun. :P
Josh wrote: "Anne and Blaine, you are not allowed to take part in any more discussion till your homework is finished.And those bedrooms better be clean, young ladies!!!
;-D"
*snort*
Why am I suddenly feeling like we're Kitty and Lydia Bennett?? lol
Yes, DAD! I'll not come back until I've finished editing at least one chapter
not saying anything about the state of my bedroom ;)
ns wrote: "Less *is* more. And by god, it's so much more that authors oughta be charged for every extra unnecessary word they write, not the other way around...."Ouch.
So, yeah, does this come with a beta-reading offer?
Mod
Hey, thanks! I've been thinking a lot about hooks recently.
So here's a question for youse guys: I'm supposed to guest blog for Jessewave in la..."
I'd find it interesting, of course. I think the best topics there work when they're writerly but not so technical as to bore non-writers -- and I think this appeals to both.
Mod
..."
Whaaaaa...?
What the hell did she just say? :-D
Josh wrote: "Whaaaaa...?What the hell did she just say? :-D "
LOL, sorry, forgot where I was. To borrow your terminology, I get incredibly talky-thinky when something intrigues me and the impact of Amazon sales on digital publishing pushes all my buttons. ;D
Mod
What the hell did she just say? :-D "
Yes, sadly I feel that would be the response as well.
Mod
As Josh so eloquently put it, I think the subject of distro vs. publisher sales might be a subject for an author's think tank. But just to let you know, amazon.com's decision to go with net 90 doesn't particularly bother me. Most likely it is a response to POD presses selling more print copies (which would need a window for return) as well as their own accounting department begging not to have to do all those payments every single month. If I were them, it's the choice I would have made, considering the sheer number of payouts they must make now that they allow individual authors to upload their books for digital download.
Mod
Yeah, I couldn't write paragraph by paragraph. I guess some people do, but I couldn't. I like to go chapter to chapter myself. But when Wrimo comes around I have to write the whole thing and then go back and edit.
Thankfully, my spelling and grammar aren't that bad, but I can see that even if it was, waiting to get that right would not be the right way to go about writing a book. Seriously. That would not work.
Jordan wrote: "Wow, I've missed some things going on here... darn email not giving me updates! lol. Yeah, I couldn't write paragraph by paragraph. I guess some people do, but I couldn't. I like to go chapter to chapter..."
I can't even do that. I write the whole novel, and then put in the chapter breaks at the end, wherever they seem to fit a pause in the action.
I write in scenes, and though I try to form them into chapters during first draft ... I often keep shuffling them back and forth until right to the end of the editing.I try to keep chapters between 2500 and 3000 words (but they may go longer or shorter if that's where the natural break seems to be)
I don't always write chronologically either, just mostly.
Kaje wrote: "Ouch.So, yeah, does this come with a beta-reading offer? "
Good grief, Kaje, you shouldn't even be reading my tripe. Don't let Anne's deluded notion that I know of what I speak contaminate you, too. You really shouldn't trust any post here after 9pm PT. It's like the kids take over and have a wild-ass drunken party while the grown-ups are away. I blame it on the beer. Besides, it was all a sordid ploy to lure me to her back porch to have her way with me, apparently. To the accompaniment of roasted meats, no less. Quite, quite sordid. Authors...honestly...
Nicole, my deepest sympathies and humblest apologies for having derailed your conversation back there. I'd say anything you write on those subjects would be of interest to us, or well, as I don't speak for others, at least me.
ns wrote: "Kaje wrote: "Ouch.So, yeah, does this come with a beta-reading offer? "
Good grief, Kaje, you shouldn't even be reading my tripe. Don't let Anne's deluded notion that I know of what I speak cont..."
Oh, you had fun and you know it.
Anne wrote: "ns wrote: "Kaje wrote: "Ouch.So, yeah, does this come with a beta-reading offer? "
Good grief, Kaje, you shouldn't even be reading my tripe. Don't let Anne's deluded notion that I know of what I..."
You know what they say about the river in Egypt... :D
Anne wrote: "Oh, you had fun and you know it. "Anne, let me explain something to you. When someone yells at you "STOP POLICE" you do not tackle them. *THEY* are the police and they're asking *YOU* to stop. Complaining about missing commas and bad grammar in such situations is not advisable. Are we clear?
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Q&A with Josh Lanyon
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I don't see any particular problem with it, then.