Q&A with Josh Lanyon discussion

note: This topic has been closed to new comments.
962 views
ARCHIVE (General Topics) > Writing Questions for Josh

Comments Showing 1,151-1,200 of 4,753 (4753 new)    post a comment »

message 1151: by Anne (new)

Anne Tenino (annetenino) | 3156 comments I can't speak for others, but the reason I don't write more sci-fi is because of the research. I have a degree in art history. Getting me up to speed is going to take a year out of my life. I try, but I know it's woefully inadequate.

OTOH, if I had two research partners who were willing to explain to me exactly what it is you can do with diamond aerogels...

I know I need those in my next book.


message 1152: by Cleon Lee (new)

Cleon Lee | 2235 comments I had neuropsychology class at college. The professor was from Netherland and so damn cute. But damn, I can't remember what I learned. LOL. I still have the class materials in a box somewhere, but I am just not cut out to memorize so many details at once like that. Oh, and apparently after we self-tested ourselves, I had a mild brain damage. Phew, and all this time I thought I had a severe one. :D


message 1153: by Nicole (new)

Nicole | 440 comments Mod
ns wrote: "I know there were recommendations to "just write through" writers block. I was going to suggest the opposite, actually. Prohibit your brain from thinking about it at all. If you're forbidden to write, forbidden to think about the book, I'll wager it would be as effective at getting your brain to think anew about it...the human mind being an amazing, amazing thing.. "

That strategy does actually work for me... provided I have the time before the deadline to do that. Otherwise I just write through it.


message 1154: by ns (last edited Jun 22, 2011 06:30PM) (new)

ns (vedi) mc wrote: "I should, Anne, except I am trying to eliminate all magazine subscriptions. Paper, paper, paper, paper, too much of it in my apartment."

What a coincidence, me too, mc. I stopped getting it about a year ago (on the no-paper crusade). I used to hit up my library every couple of weeks to catch up with my magazine reading, but I'm lucky if I make it out every couple of months these days...

I hadn't read that one, Anne.


message 1155: by ns (last edited Jun 22, 2011 06:29PM) (new)

ns (vedi) Anne wrote: "I can't speak for others, but the reason I don't write more sci-fi is because of the research. I have a degree in art history. Getting me up to speed is going to take a year out of my life. I try, but I know it's woefully inadequate.

Well, I was referring to the sci-fi writers themselves more so than other genre's incorporating science or new ideas...but I do wish that more people would write mm sci-fi! I would love that!


OTOH, if I had two research partners who were willing to explain to me exactly what it is you can do with diamond aerogels...

I know I need those in my next book. "


Yes, yes you do! You do! OK, wait, this isn't going to mean dinner at a swanky local place is it...on account of how my mortgage payments are still due and my big mouth and why I should never forget the fine print and ..... :)


message 1156: by Kaje (new)

Kaje Harper ns wrote: "I do wish that more people would write mm sci-fi..."

Just wondering if you've read Elizabeth Bear's Carnival? That's good mm SF, and almost a romance.


message 1157: by Dev (new)

Dev Bentham | 1012 comments Josh wrote: "Lissa wrote: "Josh - I have a marketing question. What would you tell a new writer about marketing as they are just starting out? What sort of outlets should they use and what is going too far?"

..."


I think that's great advice but the problem I have with social media sites is the same problem I have with friends who live out of town - time goes by and I find I haven't visited them in so long that everyone's forgotten me. I know I should probably spend an hour or so a day on social media sites but it doesn't happen. And everything is complicated by the fact I have two names and I should be networking twice as much but instead I find myself not commenting because I'm logged in as the wrong person. Clearly I need to work on my organizational skills.


message 1158: by ns (new)

ns (vedi) Kaje wrote: "ns wrote: "I do wish that more people would write mm sci-fi..."

Just wondering if you've read Elizabeth Bear's Carnival? That's good mm SF, and almost a romance."


I had seen that book on Amazon a while ago, and admittedly had not been attracted by the story line (I'm not a big fan of the primitive civilizations, extreme gender alignment and those kinds of themes, to be quite frank).

The lack of sterling reviews didn't help, either, not that it would have deterred me from picking it up if it had had a compelling story.

I'll download the sample and give it a shot tonight. Thanks for the rec!


message 1159: by mc (new)

mc | 1308 comments If this isn't too stupid a question, for all of you writers: how did you/when did you decide what was the right genre for you to write in/about? Were you writing in different areas when you first started out? How did that change?


message 1160: by Cleon Lee (new)

Cleon Lee | 2235 comments Lou wrote: "mc wrote: "If this isn't too stupid a question, for all of you writers: how did you/when did you decide what was the right genre for you to write in/about? Were you writing in different areas when..."

I am in the same boat as Lou. I did write a couple of non slash fanfic a while back, but I keep steering to M/M relationship. I am not limiting myself to this genre though. If I ever have a non M/M plot, I will write it too, but with different pen name of course.


message 1161: by Kaje (new)

Kaje Harper mc wrote: "If this isn't too stupid a question, for all of you writers: how did you/when did you decide what was the right genre for you to write in/about? Were you writing in different areas when you first ..."

I started writing m/m back in my teens as Starsky and Hutch fan fic. I wrote a lot of other stuff, mainly mysteries and fantasy and some YA in between, but never tried to publish any of it (maybe someday). My m/m romance just seemed the most polished when I finally went to submit something.


message 1162: by Blaine (new)

Blaine (blainedarden) mc wrote: "If this isn't too stupid a question, for all of you writers: how did you/when did you decide what was the right genre for you to write in/about? Were you writing in different areas when you first ..."

Err ... I started writing gay fiction when I was 17/18. Finished a diary about a dying gay man ... even, in my naivety, tried to get it published. When I read it now, I gag a lot.

I started writing 'online' when I got involved in the 'Beautiful Thing' community (a beautiful gay film). Before that it was mostly unfinished scenes/chapters that I wrote, mostly romantic, some fantasy, but not specifically m/m (though ... the story I wrote for that community was never finished ... sssh, bad girl!)

Then I slowly branched out to Buffy/Angel, Harry Potter and Stargate Atlantis, all slash, though I didn't write anything for the SGA fandom, only read tons and tons :)

I also write/wrote poetry. It has to hit me, it's not something I can force myself to do, though I do try every now and then to write a dedicated poem.
And I've tried writing lyrics. (I want to sing my own material some day) I suck at inventing melodies ... so I'd need someone to help me with that. But writing lyrics. Yeah, a lot of fun :)

As for now. I still love writing gay fiction, preferably in a fantasy setting :)

Isn't it funny how a lot of us start out in fandoms?


message 1163: by Kari (new)

Kari Gregg (karigregg) | 2083 comments Wow, guess I'm the latecomer. I cut my teeth on high fantasy in my teens. I added humor and non-fic shorts in college and my 20s, which is also when I started into category (het) romance. My 30s was more non-fic focused until I returned to romance (het, single title) around 35. 2 years ago, I went to RWA National and talked to some digital authors. My rom had always had a harder, sexier edge to it, elements that just didn't fit inside a mainstream box, but when I wrote a mainstream story? I hated it. Very frustrating. So indie press sounded perfect.

I didn't stumble into m/m until I truly dug into researching the digital market -- insta-love!

You could definitely say mine was a wandering path. :D


message 1164: by Josh (new)

Josh (joshlanyon) | 23709 comments Mod
Dev wrote: "Josh wrote: "Lissa wrote: "Josh - I have a marketing question. What would you tell a new writer about marketing as they are just starting out? What sort of outlets should they use and what is going..."

As far as social media, yes, you do need to make an appearance at least a couple of times a week. The marketing pros advise at least once a day, but I don't think this can be achieved by people writing more than a couple of books a year.

I hear your concerns though. I've now reached the point where I simply can't keep up. I used to try and make a point of promptly answering each and every comment and email, but...if I take an afternoon off as I did on Monday, I come back to (between social media comments and email) 500 messages.

I can't keep up. I can't even pretend to keep up anymore. So where I go from here, I haven't decided. I enjoy interacting with readers -- I think that's obvious -- but when it starts to cut into writing time and personal life time...it's time to start recalculating.

Of course, don't get me wrong. It's a great problem to have -- readers like to talk to me! Oh boooo hoooo, Josh!!


message 1165: by Josh (new)

Josh (joshlanyon) | 23709 comments Mod
mc wrote: "If this isn't too stupid a question, for all of you writers: how did you/when did you decide what was the right genre for you to write in/about? Were you writing in different areas when you first ..."

When I was a kid I wanted to write fantasy. I love mysteries and read mysteries all the time, but I thought those would be way too complicated, and fantasy seemed so rich and magical and exciting. But when the time came to try and write fantasy...nothing. I kept writing a story about a guy who washed up on a beach where a witch was held prisoner. Annnnnd that was about it. They talked a lot. A LOT. :-D

So I turned to mysteries which is what I knew best and I kept trying to write one until I finally suceeded.


message 1166: by mc (last edited Jun 24, 2011 09:20AM) (new)

mc | 1308 comments So I turned to mysteries which is what I knew best and I kept trying to write one until I finally suceeded. Boy, did you ever.

This is all so interesting to me - and several of you have touched on an issue underlying my question: do you write what you love to read or write what your brain makes you write?

I love mysteries, as is evident, but I could never ever write (a good) one.


message 1167: by Cleon Lee (new)

Cleon Lee | 2235 comments L.C. wrote: "Josh wrote: "So I turned to mysteries which is what I knew best and I kept trying to write one until I finally suceeded. ..."

I'd say we're all a happy bunch of campers about that! :-)"


I am the exact opposite actually. At high school I wrote (for myself) a story about a young girl who was trained as a spy, but couldn't get past a few pages. I read Enyd Blyton and all teens adventure at that time. Then when I wrote again at college, I wrote fanfic set in fantasy world. (view spoiler) I still prefer writing fantasy/ paranormal if I could, but I couldn't stand yet another vampire story, ughhhh....


message 1168: by Anne (new)

Anne Tenino (annetenino) | 3156 comments ns wrote: "mc wrote: "I should, Anne, except I am trying to eliminate all magazine subscriptions. Paper, paper, paper, paper, too much of it in my apartment."

What a coincidence, me too, mc. I stopped getti..."


I stopped getting notifications for this thread!!! So annoying.

The unfettered mind article is fascinating, you guys should look it up. It's about how creativity is enhanced in individuals whose eccentricities are left hanging out instead of trying to smother them.


message 1169: by Anne (new)

Anne Tenino (annetenino) | 3156 comments ns wrote: "Anne wrote: "I can't speak for others, but the reason I don't write more sci-fi is because of the research. I have a degree in art history. Getting me up to speed is going to take a year out of my ..."

All it means is that you have to help me figure out the brand-spanking new body armor my futuristic soldiers are getting...


message 1170: by Anne (new)

Anne Tenino (annetenino) | 3156 comments mc wrote: "If this isn't too stupid a question, for all of you writers: how did you/when did you decide what was the right genre for you to write in/about? Were you writing in different areas when you first ..."

I decided this was the genre for me when I actually managed to finish a book in it. Before that, I'd been dabbling in romance for years, but not seriously.


message 1171: by Beanbag (new)

Beanbag Love Story ideas just come to me and the genre seems to be a secondary consideration. It seems the het romance stories I have in my "ideas folder" tend toward PNR but the M/M is romance.

I have to admit I'm afraid to ever try an actual mystery. It seems very daunting to put all the subtle clues in, tie the knot, and then unravel it so the reader goes "aha!" at the end. But I do enjoy reading them.


message 1172: by ns (new)

ns (vedi) Lou wrote: "ns wrote: "I do wish that more people would write mm sci-fi! I would love that!"

How about Angel 1089 by CC Bridges?"


Hadn't seen that one, Lou, thanks for the rec!


message 1173: by Kari (new)

Kari Gregg (karigregg) | 2083 comments mc wrote: "do you write what you love to read or write what your brain makes you write?"

Short answer: yes.

;D

I think part of "write what you know" plays into this. You're going to be familiar (by osmosis) in a genre/sub-genre in which you widely read and you're going to read widely because you love it. Plus, you have to love any story that you write. You hate it sometimes (maybe even a lot of the time), but you also love it. At the very least, you loved it enough at some point to believe that one story idea among thousands of others clammering around your skull was worth developing.


message 1174: by Kaje (new)

Kaje Harper I had two questions maybe Josh or some of the published authors could answer:

I submitted a story for an anthology call, and got a notice that the decisions will be announced in March 2012. I knew this was for a 2012 release, but is 9 months a long hang time or is this common delay for short stories? I don't care that much because I have lots of other material, but I was surprised and wondering if calls usually go out this far in advance.

I am also curious whether authors do anything to track sales, beyond relying on the publishers' statements. I trust my publisher, but I'm married to a trust-but-verify guy, and he's stunned that I would not do any tracking on my own. I had to tell him I have no clue whether it's even possible.


message 1175: by Anne (new)

Anne Tenino (annetenino) | 3156 comments mc wrote: "So I turned to mysteries which is what I knew best and I kept trying to write one until I finally suceeded. Boy, did you ever.

This is all so interesting to me - and several of you have touched o..."


I have characters inside my head who talk to me. I write what they want me to, or at least I try.

Sort of. It's not quite that simple.


message 1176: by Anne (new)

Anne Tenino (annetenino) | 3156 comments Kaje wrote: "I am also curious whether authors do anything to track sales, beyond relying on the publishers' statements. I trust my publisher, but I'm married to a trust-but-verify guy, and he's stunned that I would not do any tracking on my own. I had to tell him I have no clue whether it's even possible. "

If I didn't know it was impossible, I'd wonder if we were married to the same guy. He was just going on about that on Tuesday. I haven't even gotten a royalty check. I fobbed him off with a look at the book stats on Goodreads.


message 1177: by Kari (last edited Jun 25, 2011 05:47PM) (new)

Kari Gregg (karigregg) | 2083 comments Word of warning: I've been told I'm spoiled when it comes to response times. 9mths, though? Uh...yeah, that strikes me as rather...er...longish. I've been known to get squirrel-y after 9 days. Not saying I hear back in 9 days. I just start getting squirrel-y then. (I really don't have the nerves for this business, LOL.)

JMO, but I think expecting you to sit on a story for 9 months without offering you a contract is absurd. I'd shop it around.

L.C. wrote: "Anyone know how long it takes for third parties to pay your publisher so you get paid?"

Amazon is 2mths behind, I think? For example, In May (4/11), I received royalties from February (2/11) sales.

Also a note of caution about novelrank. While I've found novelrank to be pretty accurate for low numbers, it's wonky for bigger numbers. Good ballpark guesstimate, but that's all it really is: a guesstimate.

ARe pays quarterly. Honestly not sure about the others.

ETA: I am such a doofus. It's 3 mths. May is 5/11, not 4/11. DOH!


message 1178: by Kari (new)

Kari Gregg (karigregg) | 2083 comments L.C. wrote: "LOL! I start getting squirrely about 30 seconds after hitting "send". ;-D"

I get squirrel-y at a week. At two weeks, I am O.O. If I go past three weeks, I get impulsive & weird...er. ;-p

We were just added to Amazon a few weeks or so ago with 32T.

COOL! Congrats! :D :D :D


message 1179: by Kaje (new)

Kaje Harper Kari wrote: "Word of warning: I've been told I'm spoiled when it comes to response times. 9mths, though? Uh...yeah, that strikes me as rather...er...longish. I've been known to get squirrel-y after 9 days. Not ..."

Thanks for the feedback. I wrote the short story for this specific anthology (was intrigued by the call) so I'll leave it with them, but I'll look harder at the projected release date before doing anthology submissions in the future. I can understand that it's different from a novel submission. They want to get all the candidates in and then choose the top ones for the book, so they can't respond too far in advance. But that also means there's no point in submitting early; you'll just wait longer. Squirrely is an understatement for how I'll be in 9 months, unless I can just forget I ever sent it.

Thanks, Lou, for the tracking info. I went and looked and at least I know 200 people bought my book, so that's good. Not buying a yacht any time soon, but I'm not in this for the money or I wouldn't have more free works than paid ones out there. It gives me something to tell my husband that has concrete numbers attached, and he's a concrete numbers guy so that's helpful.


message 1180: by Jordan (new)

Jordan Lombard (jslombard) | 15348 comments Mod
lol, returning late to this thread. So much talking going on!

As for how I got into M/M, it pretty much went the fanfic route, though I did write other stuff too. When I was really little, I wrote fanfic (not knowing that's what it was... hey, I was five, and the internet didn't exist, ok?) for my fav cartoon show. After that, I tried writing original fic while in elementary school (yep, it was fantasy), but a friend and I would create our own fanfic for tv shows and act them out, rather than write them down. When I started to forget some ideas before I could tell her because there were too many, I decided I needed to write them down. I abandoned the crappy original fic I'd been writing and officially switched to fanfic for several different shows and for many years. They all ended up as Het romance. Yes, even the Ninja Turtles stories had romance in a few of them!

After being the sole writer for a little known show for a few years, I got into a new show, and thought I'd read some fanfic... I was shocked to find slash fic, but read it, and ended up liking it. And ended up writing it. By this point I was getting my Master's degree and knew how to write better. And somehow I stumbled into M/M a few short years after that. Of course, while getting my Masters, I was also participating in National Novel Writing Month once a year and writing sucky original novels that I hated. I just couldn't come up with a plot or characters that worked. Until things finally clicked last year and I wrote my first totally M/M novel. I haven't looked back! I've been wanting to write original stuff and get at least one book published in my lifetime, but it wasn't working out until I discovered M/M.

Sooooo... there's my long winded answer. It's crazy. No? lol.


message 1181: by Josh (new)

Josh (joshlanyon) | 23709 comments Mod
Nine months is a long time to wait for a response. Even mainstream publishers don't tend to take more than three months maximum (and it's usually much faster). Maybe it's special case? I mean, it's unusual but not unheard of.

On tracking sales: basically, unless you're willing to pay for an audit (and that's only worth it if you feel a lot of money is involved) you pretty much have to accept the publisher's numbers. Especially where ebooks are concerned. That's why you want to listen to other authors when they drop little hints about publishers who don't pay in a timely fashion or don't supply enough data on sales.

There are some tools for print -- amazon and novelrank -- and they can give you a rough estimate of where your numbers should be, but they're not fool proof.

Most of the third party vendors are working three months to a quarter behind in sales. Amazon is three months behind. Not sure how the Nook pays out because I haven't released anything direct to Nook yet.

You do definitely want to look your monthly royalty statements over carefully. I've had titles left off, I've had other author's titles attributed to me -- so you want to read them over and you want to watch how the numbers fluctuate. Your highest sales direct from the publisher will be the first two months. After that, the number will drop but that lower number should stay pretty steady. Your initial releases on third party sites will provide a nice spike (although you won't see it for a couple of months).

These days 200 ebooks (give or take) seems to be pretty standard (healthy) first month of release number for a new author from the publisher's site. Numbers fluctuate based on a variety of factors. Where the title releases in the month, whether preorders were taken, whether the publishers website is particularly active, etc. Some of the smaller publishers do better with their third party releases than they do through their own websites.

Anyway, one bestseller does not a career make. Neither does one flop.


message 1182: by Kaje (new)

Kaje Harper Thanks for the info. The anthology call was for Storm Moon Press and they are pretty new (I think a year or so) so maybe they want to give themselves more time. They have several anthology calls out, and perhaps they figure established authors will be slow to participate so they will get fewer good offerings at first? Anyway, I can wait, but I'm glad to hear that's not standard since I'm finding I like short story writing (where I used to do nothing shorter than a novel). I'll send the next one elsewhere.


message 1183: by Blaine (last edited Jun 28, 2011 12:00AM) (new)

Blaine (blainedarden) Kaje wrote: "Thanks for the info. The anthology call was for Storm Moon Press and they are pretty new (I think a year or so) so maybe they want to give themselves more time. They have several anthology calls o..."

Actually, I think Storm Moon Press is pretty upfront about it. They're accepting submissions for anthologies for 2012 and 2013, but they won't/can't tell you your story is accepted until after the deadline ends ..
Makes sense to me.

I submitted to them for an anthology as well, but the deadline is 15 July, so I won't hear whether I'm in or not until some time after 15 july.
On the plus side, that anthology already has a cover and it's gorgeous :) *feeps fingers crossed*


message 1184: by Clare (new)

Clare (clarelondon) | 17 comments Nicole said: oftentimes I've found that when I'm leveling up in some skill set it's, like, excruciatingly slow going--like a whole part of my writing brain is being overwritten with new code and it bogs down the whole system.

*nod*
I find that's how my writing goes - not necessarily a straight upward incline as I learn more and improve and gain readers, but forward 3 steps for every 2 back. And hopefully in that ratio! :)

I've found plenty of times when I've got bogged down with something new - either a strategy I need to develop, or somewhere I need to improve my skill - and I'm a blob of dejection, feeling I'm back at square #1 and everything in the past was so obviously crap...

Anyway *taking deep breath*, I assume that's the system-grinding-to-a-halt-while-it-reconfigures that you describe. It takes an extra kick to get me back out and onward :). I'm probably at that stage at the moment LOL.


message 1185: by Kaje (new)

Kaje Harper Blaine D. wrote: "I think Storm Moon Press is pretty up front about it..."

I didn't mean to imply they were misleading, just that it seemed like a long planning time for the anthology, to solicit stories a year in advance of making a decision. It's hard to wait that long for feedback, which might make writers reluctant to submit to them. But I figured that if they are new they may feel they need longer to accumulate a good selection. Obviously they can say no to a story in advance, but not yes until they find out what selection they will have.


message 1186: by Blaine (new)

Blaine (blainedarden) Kaje wrote: "Blaine D. wrote: "I think Storm Moon Press is pretty up front about it..."

I didn't mean to imply they were misleading, just that it seemed like a long planning time for the anthology, to solicit ..."


I don't have an answer for that. When I noticed the 'Weight of a gun' anthology submission call, There was only one other anthology submission call.

I also have no idea how long they ran the submission call for 'Weight of a gun', I first saw it in April, and it'll be released january 2012


message 1187: by Cleon Lee (new)

Cleon Lee | 2235 comments To Josh, and every published author out there... how important is the first paragraph of the story? I mean, I know it should be very captivating so that the acquiring editor won't throw your manuscript to the recycle bin. But how important exactly it is?

At another writer's group where I am a part of, non M/M romance writing group, they seem to be solely focusing on the first paragraph of their novel or story. I hardly read any excerpts from them longer than a paragraph. Sometimes they dissect a sentence to death. How it sounds, if it's grammatically correct or not, but I've never read their works in whole.

A guy who wants to write a novel, seems to do everything but writes. He joins a grammar class, read books about grammar & Chicago Manual style. And he asked a group to critique a sentence.

The publisher, who's also the editor of her publishing company said that he's on the right track by asking questions like this. My thought at once was, wouldn't it better to finish the story first and nitpick later?


message 1188: by Calathea (last edited Aug 01, 2011 10:44AM) (new)

Calathea | 6034 comments Cleon wrote: "how important is the first paragraph of the story? ."

From Plot & Structure - Write Great Fiction:
"The first task of your beginning is to hook the reader. Period."

And he goes on:
"And remember, that first reader is going to be an agent or editor. Tough crowd. These are people who have too many manuscripts to go through each day. They are itching for a reason to put yours down.
Don't give them that reason."





message 1189: by Cleon Lee (new)

Cleon Lee | 2235 comments Calathea wrote: "Cleon wrote: "how important is the first paragraph of the story? ."

From Plot & Structure - Write Great Fiction: "The first task of your beginning is to hook the reader. Period."
And ..."


Thank you for the link, Calathea! What an interesting book. I need to go look for it at my local bookstores!


message 1190: by Calathea (last edited Aug 01, 2011 11:00AM) (new)

Calathea | 6034 comments Cleon wrote: "Thank you for the link, Calathea! What an interesting book. I need to go look for it at my local bookstores! "

I found it quite interesting to read. It helped me to see a novel from a different POV and find out why some stories just click with me and others are bla.


message 1191: by Jordan (new)

Jordan Lombard (jslombard) | 15348 comments Mod
Oh Plot and Structure! Great book! I've read the whole series except the one on Editing. I still haven't finished that book, but the others were all fantastic, and I highly recommend them. lol, also recommend highlighters and/or page markers!


message 1192: by Nicole (last edited Aug 01, 2011 01:27PM) (new)

Nicole | 440 comments Mod
Calathea wrote: "And remember, that first reader is going to be an agent or editor. Tough crowd. These are people who have too many manuscripts to go through each day. They are itching for a reason to put yours down.
Don't give them that reason."


Just to chime in here: as an editor, I'm not really looking for a reason to put a book down so much as a reason to continue reading. Many opening paragraphs of books contain nothing that piques my interest. Most of the time the first couple of paragraphs are taken up by descriptions of setting or character, which is a mistake. The hook is about conveying an intriguing situation that makes a reader want to continue on in order to find out what is happening and how the situation will be resolved.

Here is an example of a good hook: the first 57 words (or 2 paragraphs) of Ginn Hale's "The Rifter."



The letter wasn’t addressed to John. The return address, however, was his. Not that he had sent the letter. He would never have mailed anything off without a zip code and he certainly wouldn’t have wasted postage attempting to contact, “The Palace of the Day in the Kingdom of the Night.”

But his roommate Kyle would have.


Why is this a good hook? Because it conveys the protagonist's character? Not really. The only thing we know about the POV character from this hook is that his name is John and that he feels strongly about ZIP codes.

The setting? Well, we know that there are ZIP codes so we're somewhere in America, after the mid-20th century, but that's it.

The point of interest is that our POV character, John, has a roommate who is apparently attempting to contact an extremely bizarre-sounding place. Immediately, I'm intrigued. I, along with John am thinking, "what the hell?"

The next six pages we watch John struggle with the temptation to open his roommate's strange mail and find out what's inside. We learn about how odd the roommate, Kyle, is. We learn that John and Kyle have had a recent awkward encounter. Finally we see John loose the struggle, open the envelope, only to discover a cryptic message and key. This whole opening scene contains 1,123 words, yet it launches and forms the basic support structure for the rest of the 2000+ page story.

One key thing to note about this hook is that brings up a question: what's in the envelope? But that the answer: what is in the envelope is a key, does not resolve anything. The answer: what is in the envelope is a key, only brings up another question: what is this key for?

The reader turns the page and keeps going, watching events unfold that lead us closer and closer to the answer to the question, "what is this key really for?"

A hook should not explain much, only establish the bare minimum of information the reader needs to know in order to understand that there is a genuine story occurring in the book and also to convey what sort of story the reader is about to read.

But that's just my 2 cents.


message 1193: by Nicole (last edited Aug 01, 2011 01:53PM) (new)

Nicole | 440 comments Mod
Cleon wrote: "At another writer's group where I am a part of, non M/M romance writing group, they seem to be solely focusing on the first paragraph of their novel or story. I hardly read any excerpts from them longer than a paragraph. Sometimes they dissect a sentence to death. How it sounds, if it's grammatically correct or not, but I've never read their works in whole. "

IMHO it's pointless to critique a 1st paragraph without reading the entire novel. It's impossible to discern whether the 1st paragraph is effective until you've read all the way through to the last paragraph. Because how will you know if the promise implicit in the first paragraph is fulfilled otherwise? How will you establish that the first paragraph and scene are inextricably linked to the last paragraph and scene?

No... *shakes head* this is pointless busywork. At best this is an elaborate word game, but to me it seems like a gigantic waste of time.


message 1194: by Anne (new)

Anne Tenino (annetenino) | 3156 comments Is there some kind of publisher etiquette I'll be breaching by submitting to different publishers? I don't mean simultaneous submissions, I just mean -- now that I have this relationship with this publisher, what's my obligation (if any) to send them my next work? Will they potentially view it negatively if I don't?


message 1195: by Blaine (new)

Blaine (blainedarden) Nicole wrote: "How will you establish that the first paragraph and scene are inextricably linked to the last paragraph and scene?"

Oh, that makes so much sense.

though I've been known to put first scenes/chapters up for critique ... mostly in short stories. Strangely enough that helps me a lot, because I use the crits I get for that first bit for the rest of the story.

Cleon: asking to crit a sentence? Really? That sounds ... err ...
well, if you've read his story and he's changing it, it makes sense, but without having any knowledge of the story to grab back to, it just doesn't make sense.

And yes, the first paragraph is important, but finicking about that paragraph is what causes a lot of stories to never be written, because they're always perfecting it and never actually writing the story


message 1196: by Nicole (new)

Nicole | 440 comments Mod
Anne wrote: "Is there some kind of publisher etiquette I'll be breaching by submitting to different publishers? I don't mean simultaneous submissions, I just mean -- now that I have this relationship with this..."

Is your next work related to the first one at all?


message 1197: by Anne (new)

Anne Tenino (annetenino) | 3156 comments Nicole wrote: "Anne wrote: "Is there some kind of publisher etiquette I'll be breaching by submitting to different publishers? I don't mean simultaneous submissions, I just mean -- now that I have this relations..."

Sorrry, forgot to clarify that part. I meant subsequent books that are in different "worlds". I signed an ROFR contract for my series, so that's off the table.


message 1198: by Anne (new)

Anne Tenino (annetenino) | 3156 comments Blaine D. wrote: "though I've been known to put first scenes/chapters up for critique ... mostly in short stories. Strangely enough that helps me a lot, because I use the crits I get for that first bit for the rest of the story."

I do this too, and I get massive benefits from it. I think it's because I often start a story without knowing for sure how it's going to end.

Look at us, Blaine -- we're still avoiding writing!


message 1199: by Kari (new)

Kari Gregg (karigregg) | 2083 comments Anne wrote: "Is there some kind of publisher etiquette I'll be breaching by submitting to different publishers? I don't mean simultaneous submissions, I just mean -- now that I have this relationship with this publisher, what's my obligation (if any) to send them my next work? Will they potentially view it negatively if I don't?"

If you signed a Right of First Refusal/First Offer clause, you're legally obligated to abide those terms.

Otherwise...All of my publishers are aware of each other and know I like to stretch my legs. And so far, everybody's still replying to my emails. LOL


message 1200: by Kaje (new)

Kaje Harper Anne wrote: "Is there some kind of publisher etiquette I'll be breaching by submitting to different publishers? I don't mean simultaneous submissions, I just mean -- now that I have this relationship with this..."

I'm interested in this too, because I write faster than my editor edits. I have one novel and three shorts/novellas at MLR right now, so I sent an unrelated novel to a different publisher. Haven't heard back yet, but I see other authors working with more than one publisher simultaneously so hopefully that's kosher.


back to top
This topic has been frozen by the moderator. No new comments can be posted.