Q&A with Josh Lanyon discussion
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Writing Questions for Josh
Nicole wrote: "I can see your point here if you are talking about a MS that you are writing without a contract to submit to an editor who you haven't worked with before. Obviously, you want to put your best foot forward because you don't have the job yet.My 4th book will be releasing in Sept, with 2 books per editor thus far. Although I think we're growing comfortable working together...In my way, I'm still putting my best foot forward.
But if you're talking about sending a limping MS to the editor who has contracted it then I suggest you might be missing the mark a little. No human being on Earth has more of a stake in your MS succeeding than the editor who acquired it. No one will try harder to make it fly..."
Ah, now there's the rub. I haven't sold on proposal yet. Gives me the vapors, honestly. I mean, I will do it, likely very soon. Not really looking forward to it (other than my sheer paranoia, I expect, will make me write faster -- faster is good, LOL), but I can see what you're saying, yeah. I'm just not at that place yet.
Anne wrote: "NS you don't know the restraint I'm showing in not making a hamster joke right now."And don't think we DON'T ALL APPRECIATE THAT! I'm reading your mind AS WE SPEAK, YOUNG LADY!!
Josh wrote: "...Since my publishers were going to take those semicolons out again..."Yeah, what is with this? I like my semicolons. I put them in there on purpose.
ns wrote:ROFL...wait, er, crap, you're on this list too? Er, in the event someone made an inadvisable reference to an author's abduction (not that I'm saying someone did, mind you) it was all likely very hypothetical, and not something anyone should pay attention to at all, REALLY. In short, there is NO such plan, no sirree..."Eeeep-- I've been found out! (Lurches into nearby bush.)
Kaje wrote: "Josh wrote: "...Since my publishers were going to take those semicolons out again..."Yeah, what is with this? I like my semicolons. I put them in there on purpose."
That's so weird. My editor just put a bunch in.
Ginn wrote: "Eeeep-- I've been found out! (Lurches into nearby bush.) "In all seriousness, though, I have to take this opportunity to say I'm indebted to you for some really remarkable reading experiences.
I recently read Wicked Gentlemen (which I thought was absolutely amazing and exquisite), and am, of course, enjoying the Rifter books like most people here. A few people around here will attest to my batshit-crazy drug addiction with beautiful sentences and lovely books, and you are dealer royalty, for me.
Nicole said: I think what might be happening is it takes the pressure of seeking excellence off long enough to accomplish the basic work. Sneaking in from lurkdom to say what a shockingly useful light-bulb moment this comment has given me :). Writing has gradually slowed to a grinding-and-pulling-teeth pace with me this year, much of it self-imposed. Thanks Nicole! and I really enjoyed your post at Jessewave's too.
Josh - I have a marketing question. What would you tell a new writer about marketing as they are just starting out? What sort of outlets should they use and what is going too far?Also to add to this, since my first release is several months out. What is best to do before the release.
I hope you don't mind a comment...I realized that the shroud of writer's block was descending upon me when I became more excited about commenting on others' work in my online writing group, than writing my own. Providing a good critique (eg, helpful) was so satisfying when the writing well had done run dry. I don't have the opportunity to do that anymore, but boy, I enjoyed it.There were a few writers in some of those classes who were just so terrific with their critiques of my own work that I still remember them, though it's been years now.
One of the teachers stands out so memorably, too - he was very direct, and provided comments that not only made me look at my own writing differently, but writing overall (heck, I even started READING differently). He was definitely not a smiley-faced hand-holder, but I always felt great after reading his comments, despite some BRACE YOURSELF moments.
On my update page, KZ Snow just added this quote to her GR quotes: "It is perfectly okay to write garbage--as long as you edit brilliantly." — C. J. Cherryh It makes me curious, Nicole. Does this statement have a grain of truth in it? That a good editor can turn a crappy MS into a brilliant book?
I've read Max Perkins: Editor of Genius and it was very interesting. Max Perkins worked with F. Scott Fitzgerald and Ernest Hemingway - preaching to the choir here, I know - and it was fascinating to see how he handled the books. And their writers :-)
Cleon wrote: "On my update page, KZ Snow just added this quote to her GR quotes: "It is perfectly okay to write garbage--as long as you edit brilliantly." — C. J. Cherryh It makes me curious, Nicole. Does this..."
Actually, I think CJ Cherryh means the editing a writer does when they're polishing their first draft ...
Mod
Going too far?
Well...I advise against spending a lot of money on marketing and promotion at first. Save up for around books 3 - 4 when you've got some name recognition and a big push will pay off.
The main thing you want to do is interact with *readers,* so you want to concentrate your efforts on sites where readers hang out. Popular genre blogs are a place to win notice with your smart, insightful comments and the pleasant way you interact with readers and writers both.
You'll want to be on Facebook and Twitter and Goodreads and Shelfari -- but I'd limit the social media to a few good ones like those. There are others but before long you'll find yourself racing to try and keep all the social media sites updated. I think you're better to avoid a site than maintain it halfassed (which, unfortunately, is what I do in a few places because I'm so overextended).
When calls go out for prizes for contests or giveaways, offer your books, enter awards (not to win but in the hope of having more people read your work.) Do guest blogs when and where you can.
I think the best advice I can give is try and look at it like investing in retirement stocks. Just keep plugging away into that account and don't keep checking the balance. Just contribute steadily and consistently and it will start to pay in dividends. But if you keep looking and comparing and worrying about it, it will feel like forever before you actually see the results.
Blaine D. wrote: "Cleon wrote: "On my update page, KZ Snow just added this quote to her GR quotes: "It is perfectly okay to write garbage--as long as you edit brilliantly." — C. J. Cherryh It makes me curious, Nic..."
I know, but I am also curious if an editor can polish a crappy work into something good.
ns wrote: "A few people around here will attest to my batshit-crazy drug addiction with beautiful sentences and lovely books, and you are dealer royalty, for me. "You obviously possess great taste in literature, because you're here on Josh's site and he is one of the best in the trade--regardless of genre!
Mod
Well, that's just..."
Look how she just whipped that out!
Mod
You obviously possess great tast..."
:-D
You are TOO kind.
Mod
You're welcome. I hope it's useful.
Mod
Well, the original quote referred to a writer editing their own work as Blaine pointed out.
The answer is to your question, can an outside editor turn a failing MS into a winning book is this: depends on what's going on in the MS and the degree of flexibility on the part of the writer. Presuming the author is unwilling to consider large revisions (and in my experience, most authors will refuse any revision which fundamentally changes their story) here are some dealbreaking flaws that can generally be solved in editing, which is to say that can be solved by cut/paste, and additions or deletions of 5 pages (at a time) or less:
Timeline Issues
Murky or Missing Character Motivation
Pacing
Lack of Dramatic Tension (in a story where dramatic events occur, but the characters don't react to them.)
Inadequate or Mystifying Climactic Scene
Missed Scene Endings
Occasional Blandness in Prose (an example of this is when, during a dialogue scene, the beats start to read like stage directions instead of narrative prose.)
Dull or missing primary antagonist.
So a lot can be solved in editing but if a story has fundamental flaws, such as basic nonsensicality or complete lack of narrative line or highly unsympathetic protagonist the author must consider very large changes.
A well-thought out story with likable characters that suffers from bland or even substandard prose can be miraculously transformed with editing, presuming that the editor has more well-developed technical writing sensibilities than the author. (This happens more than you would think since writing is a craft that occurs separately from story-creation. Oftentimes very good storytellers will have basically mediocre prose because the prose is not their focus.)
An inadequate narrative line can only be solved with major surgery--structural editorial input followed by extensive rewrites... and then more editing.
Did that answer your question?
Nicole wrote: "Cleon wrote: "It makes me curious, Nicole. Does this statement have a grain of truth in it? That a good editor can turn a crappy MS into a brilliant book? "Well, the original quote referred to a ..."
Yes, thank you very much for this detailed answer, Nicole. Wow. Now I begin have some ideas why many self published works fail.
Mod
I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean that you understand that self-published works fail because of a lack of editing or that there are simply a lot of ways to fail?
Oh, and there actually is one sort of unsympathetic character who can be saved by editing alone--the TSTL character. Because TSTL usually just needs their motivations spruced up in order to appear to be intelligent. This is because TSTL characters are a symptom of an author making their characters perform the actions in a plotline without providing adequate evidence of intelligent, consistent motivation. This is normally a 20-30 sentence solve which is to say that replacing 20 or 30 sentences throughout the MS will achieve the desired result. A huge number of villains written in romance also suffer, to some degree, from TSTL. In my experience, oftentimes the TSTL villain is the carbon monoxide of the MS, the invisible killer holding a story back from greatness.
Mod
Thank you Clare! I really wish I could remember who gave that "write a facsimile" advice. It was truly wise.
Also, I don't know if this is what's happening to you but oftentimes I've found that when I'm leveling up in some skill set it's, like, excruciatingly slow going--like a whole part of my writing brain is being overwritten with new code and it bogs down the whole system.
Did that make sense?
Nicole wrote: "Oh, and there actually is one sort of unsympathetic character who can be saved by editing alone--the TSTL character. Because TSTL usually just needs their motivations spruced up in order to appear to be intelligent."I think TSTL characters really kill a book. I am a reader, mine is the point of view of the consumer, not of the craftsman, but my mind screams when a character does the contrary of what s/he was told to do and I can't understand why. When I do something stupid, I know why it sounds such a wonderful idea at the moment, so I'd like the character to share that with me :)
Josh wrote: "You are TOO kind. "Nah. I'm just saying what everybody knows is true. That's why we pester you non-stop for more; your writing has a real power to move and inspire readers. It's beautiful!
(Now I must scuttle back into lurking, or I'll blather on and on and give away what a crazy fan I am.)
Mod
I completely understand. Taking action that in hindsight turns out to have been stupid, or at least stupidly dangerous, is such a universal experience that to withhold that resonance from the reader is just kinda mean.
I've been watching The Good Guys--that buddy cop show by the guy who created Burn Notice. The Good Guys is a perfect example of providing excellent motivation for completely stupid actions. I'm really enjoying it.
Nicole wrote: "Cleon wrote: "Yes, thank you very much for this detailed answer, Nicole. Wow. Now I begin have some ideas why many self published works fail."I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean that you unde..."
Yes, I mean that many self published authors who don't usually have help from content editors who know what they're doing. And perhaps that is one of the reasons they fail.
I belong in a another writers' forum where the majority of the members seem to think that the best way to succeed nowadays is to self publish. Most are frustrated with the submission process, but there is an author who finally ends her contract even after she got an advance because of disagreement with her editor. She now wants to self publish. Then there are discussions of why only a few people succeed in self publishing and most fail.
Mod
This is just my opinion, but I think it's pretty rare for one person to be good at all the aspects of book production. I think in the future, writer's collectives or co-ops might be one way to go: 3-10 authors collaborating on stuff.
Most are frustrated with the submission process, but there is an author who finally ends her contract even after she got an advance because of disagreement with her editor.
I have had a few authors who came really far in the BEB MS acquisition process and ultimately withdrew their stuff because of editorial disagreements with me. I think that's pretty common in this particular genre.
Then there are discussions of why only a few people succeed in self publishing and most fail.
Like I said, I think its extremely rare for one person to have all the skills it takes. Graphic design, web design, accounting, contract negotiation, editorial, marketing & promotion... the list goes on and on. Plus nobody wants to deal with a one manuscript book company. It's just not worth anybody's time.
Mod
Words fail me, honestly...how do you do that?"
A better question might be how come I can't write from beginning to end? I really don't know how I do it. All I know is once I stopped writing MS from page one to page done, in order, and started writing sideways and backwards I had a breakthrough and began to make much more interesting stories in about one fifth of the time.
Nicole wrote: "A better question might be how come I can't write from beginning to end? I really don't know how I do it. All I know is once I stopped writing MS from page one to page done, in order, and started writing sideways and backwards I had a breakthrough and began to make much more interesting stories in about one fifth of the time. "This is really, really fascinating to me. I'd love to do a few experiments with you and other authors. I'd like to hook you up to an MRI and see which parts of the brain are active when you're asked to do different things, your usual way:
- how you put your plots/stories together
- when you write
- when you edit
- when a certain author talks to a certain editor (this one is purely for the entertainment value :)).
I'd be very fascinated to see if people's brains behaved the same, whether the extent of the activity reflected any kind of discernable pattern.
On why the composing from the middle frees you: this is only speculation, but my guess is that it's also liberating in a way -- frees you from the pressure of creating your plot in a linear, organized, top-down way? You're less restricted, confined in the order with which your thinking needs to flow?
We do well whenever we can get ourselves out of the way, especially the constraints on what we have to think about. The brain is masterfully creative when we're thinking about things we shouldn't be thinking about. The less control, the (speculation goes) more free your brain is to generate stuff.
I know there were recommendations to "just write through" writers block. I was going to suggest the opposite, actually. Prohibit your brain from thinking about it at all. If you're forbidden to write, forbidden to think about the book, I'll wager it would be as effective at getting your brain to think anew about it...the human mind being an amazing, amazing thing..
Nicole wrote: "Like I said, I think its extremely rare for one person to have all the skills it takes. Graphic design, web design, accounting, contract negotiation, editorial, marketing & promotion... the list goes on and on. Plus nobody wants to deal with a one manuscript book company. It's just not worth anybody's time. "Very true. (btw, my writing forum group is a collection of writers with diverse genre, none writes M/M romance but me though. lol)
ns wrote: "Nicole wrote: "A better question might be how come I can't write from beginning to end? I really don't know how I do it. All I know is once I stopped writing MS from page one to page done, in order..."Have you watched Limitless or Inception? Those are thought provoking movies about ideas and how brains work.
Cleon wrote: "Have you watched Limitless or Inception? Those are thought provoking movies about ideas and how brains work. "No, I haven't, thanks for the tip, Cleon!
ns, have you ever read Mapping the Mind? I think you might like it.
mc wrote: "ns, have you ever read Mapping the Mind? I think you might like it."mc, that's on my TBR pile, actually! Thanks for reminding me! :)
And when I say pile, it was actually buried under the US Road Atlas in the den, so I haven't even *seen* it for a while..out of sight, out of mind, I guess. I need a map of my house, one of those HP things which shows you where everything is in real-time :)
Soon enough, you'll get that on retinal display, straight to your brain.I love reading about anything to do with neurobiology.
ns wrote: "Cleon wrote: "Have you watched Limitless or Inception? Those are thought provoking movies about ideas and how brains work. "No, I haven't, thanks for the tip, Cleon!"
Actually Limitless is not about how brains work but a story about a drug who enhanced brain performance to a max. The protag used to be a writer who has a terrible case of writer's block. LOL.
Another good movie is Source Code (touching too! it's actually perfect for Father's Day).
My friends are movie junkies. Well, less than 3$/ticket for weekdays is hard to beat, and I can walk from my house to the mall so when I am not online, I mostly watch movies with them.
mc wrote: "Soon enough, you'll get that on retinal display, straight to your brain.I love reading about anything to do with neurobiology."
Yep, me too. And human intelligence, and pretty much everything covered by Scientific American Mind. Irresistable.
Absolutely. I'd love to have one of those mapping brain scans. Though it would be mortifying if instead of a map, they only found some scrawled, misspelled directions that led nowhere.Hey, wasn't the pre-frontal cortex supposed to be here? I took the left at the hypothalamus and went straight for a couple thousand neurons and then nothing. Damn GPS.
This is why I think sci-fi has fallen behind as a genre: writers don't seem to read science anymore. There is so much incredibly cool stuff to write about..and yet you see these same tired themes with almost nothing created fresh in them, whether as atmosphere or gimmicks..
Check out this site (ok, if nothing else, check out the naked woman taming the beluga whales in the Arctic!).
Seriously, if I could get an author to incorporate this or this or this into a book, I'd buy them dinner. Straight-up, restaurant of your choice. REALLY.
This was actually triggered by a question of why so many m/m books had sort of the same theme to them (best friends, room-mates, gay for you, etc.), most of which are causing me to gag. And then I realized I have the same complaint of a lot of fiction these days.
mc wrote: "Hey, wasn't the pre-frontal cortex supposed to be here? I took the left at the hypothalamus and went straight for a couple thousand neurons and then nothing. Damn GPS. "HA! That so captures my brain at the moment I'm unable to laugh. Sigh. Me, right there.
mc, really, have you thought about writing a piece of funny sci-fi? I would SO BUY IT INSTANTLY...
Those are amazingly cool articles. I'd love to write about one of those topics. Though the naked women and beluga whales escape me as a topic. Whale shifters, perhaps? I remember reading about seal shifters, why not whale shifters?Have you ever wanted to go to a TED conference, ns? Nerd heaven. Did I mention that in my pre-teen/teen years I wore glasses AND braces?
mc wrote: "Those are amazingly cool articles. I'd love to write about one of those topics. Though the naked women and beluga whales escape me as a topic. Whale shifters, perhaps? I remember reading about ..."Heh, there's a World Mummy Conference. I can't wait till Mummy Dearest comes out... :)
Yeah, I watch TED stuff online all the time. Actually go to a conference? Sigh, no...
mc wrote: "Those are amazingly cool articles. I'd love to write about one of those topics. Though the naked women and beluga whales escape me as a topic. Whale shifters, perhaps? I remember reading about ..."Well, there's the immediate stupefaction of needing to believe 3 impossible things before breakfast, right.
1. She can hold her breath for 10 mins.
2. She can swim in sub-zero waters (naked)
3. Something about her naked swimming (or some othery mystifying attribute) allows her, specifically, to bond with the very reclusive belugas.
You'd think this were a contrived bit of far-fetched idiocy, wouldn't you, if it were in a book.
mc wrote: "Soon enough, you'll get that on retinal display, straight to your brain.I love reading about anything to do with neurobiology."
Do you read Scientific American Mind? I love that magazine.
ns wrote: "mc wrote: "Soon enough, you'll get that on retinal display, straight to your brain.I love reading about anything to do with neurobiology."
Yep, me too. And human intelligence, and pretty much ev..."
Did you read that article recently on the Unfettered Mind? I was wondering after reading some of your comments above.
I should, Anne, except I am trying to eliminate all magazine subscriptions. Paper, paper, paper, paper, too much of it in my apartment.
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Q&A with Josh Lanyon
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Let me just say that I love the fact that this is your dream and you're pursuing it, Cleon. It's really very cool. More power to you!