Q&A with Josh Lanyon discussion
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Writing Questions for Josh
Anne wrote: "We also have a weird situation in the MMCrits group right now, with 5 (I think) writers doing HJD stories. We're actually trying to edit each other to some extent, because it's the only editing we get.It's been really bloody hectic, hasn't it?
Anne wrote: "The multiple viewpoints available in belonging to a group is invaluable. I think LC said it earlier -- if it's something I'm attached to, I don't change it until multiple betas mention it being a problem. And even then I don't sometimes ("Me Tarzan, you Jane"). "
The multiple viewpoints gives you a whole new insight into your own story.
Though, I don't agree with not changing until multiple betas mention it being a problem. If I realise it's a problem area even if only one person commented on it, I still take it into account.
Blaine D. wrote: "Though, I don't agree with not changing until multiple betas mention it being a problem. If I realise it's a problem area even if only one person commented on it, I still take it into account. "I do, too. I'm just saying if it's something I don't think is a problem, then I might need a couple more people to mention it before I face facts.
Mod
Consensus of opinion is one of the best things about a critique group. It takes the guesswork out.
It's still worth considering each and every criticism -- especially the ones that underscore any suspicions you already had.
I belong to a couple of real life critique groups and in one group we had a woman who hated - HATED - another member's work. She would write comments like I HATE THIS CHARACTER, I HOPE HE DIES.
And this was about the protagonist, not the villain. :-D
When I tried to explain to her that those kinds of comments weren't really productive, she responded, "But I do hate that character. I do hope he dies."
Funny, you have to admit.
I guess if the entire group had hated the character it might even have been a useful observation. Though surely there would have been a better way to phrase it.
I have some funny critique stories, but I am now late and must head out. Hope you all have a wonderful Sunday afternoon (or Monday morning)!
Josh wrote: "I belong to a couple of real life critique groups and in one group we had a woman who hated - HATED - another member's work. She would write comments like I HATE THIS CHARACTER, I HOPE HE DIES."
Okay, now I feel better about my crappy beta-ing skill. Honestly, even when I was active at fandom, I've never encountered beta reader like this. Now I also understand where Nicole is coming from.
Josh wrote: "Um, Josh? You "sound" almost angry...No. Not at all. Impatient? Well, sort of. This is such a very young genre and it's hard to remember that most of the people here, from the writers to the pu..."
Whew. I'm glad to know that I may not have offended you, Josh. And I fully admit to being absolutely new at all of this. I was only laughing at the imagery of the wet hamster and not intending that to be directed at anyone's skills or lack thereof. And, I was trying to agree that it IS hard to be a good beta reader, so your comments and discussion here have all been good for me. Okay, I'll shut up now. :D
Amanda wrote: "Josh wrote: "Um, Josh? You "sound" almost angry...No. Not at all. Impatient? Well, sort of. This is such a very young genre and it's hard to remember that most of the people here, from the writer..."
I know, I loved the wet hamster thing almost as much as the wounded one. If a wounded hamster is an author, is a wet hamster a beta-reader? That doesn't seem very flattering, does it.
Anne wrote: "Amanda wrote: "Josh wrote: "Um, Josh? You "sound" almost angry...No. Not at all. Impatient? Well, sort of. This is such a very young genre and it's hard to remember that most of the people here, ..."
Oops, there I go again. I have foot in mouth disease on here, it seems. I meant wounded. But if one is wounded it would surely be wet, too. LOL! Anyway, the hamster was just unexpected imagery is all.;D
Amanda wrote: "Anne wrote: "Amanda wrote: "Josh wrote: "Um, Josh? You "sound" almost angry...No. Not at all. Impatient? Well, sort of. This is such a very young genre and it's hard to remember that most of the ..."
Oh, I thought Josh said the wet hamster thing, first. Seriously, I'm getting a lot of mileage out of this hamster thing. :)
Lou wrote: "Back in my fanfic writing days always the writers being the most tactless in their crits had the thinnest skin themselves."Remember the days of Fandom Wank, Lou? lol.
Cleon wrote: "Lou wrote: "Back in my fanfic writing days always the writers being the most tactless in their crits had the thinnest skin themselves."Remember the days of Fandom Wank, Lou? lol."
Like doctor's being the worst patients lol
I have to admit I escaped most of the fandom wanks. There were so many prolific writers in my little corner that my stories mostly escaped notice. Though, every now and then I still come across a new mention of one of them, even though it's been years. (well, new, one I hadn't noticed before)
And according to my website stats, they're still sporadically being read. :)
Josh wrote: "It's still worth considering each and every criticism -- especially the ones that underscore any suspicions you already had.Or point out something you hadn't even thought of
Josh wrote: "I belong to a couple of real life critique groups and in one group we had a woman who hated - HATED - another member's work. She would write comments like I HATE THIS CHARACTER, I HOPE HE DIES. "
Ouch!
It would be cool to have a RL critique group.
Though I do spar with a small group of friends about our writing every now and then, we're more a writing group than a critique group. We try to get together once a month, but distances and RL have a way of reducing that.
We do skype regularly ...
Blaine D. wrote: "Josh wrote: "It's still worth considering each and every criticism -- especially the ones that underscore any suspicions you already had.Or point out something you hadn't even thought of
Josh wr..."
I wish there were a writing group near me. As it is, most people don't even read much less write. Or even if there were a writing group, I could not share my M/M romance stories. So, my online friends are my only writing friends. *group hug*
Cleon wrote: "I wish there were a writing group near me. As it is, most people don't even read much less write. Or even if there were a writing group, I could not share my M/M romance stories. So, my online friends are my only writing friends. *group hug* "*group hug*
Actually, it wasn't until I started participating in NaNoWriMo that I finally met kindred spirits and realised more Dutchies wrote in English and some even dug m/m :) (or were at least open to gay fiction)
I've made some close friends there and we decided to start our own private writing group. For a while there were three others who joined us regularly, but it's mostly just the three of us (and one of us isn't actively writing at the moment)
of course, there's also the Dutch NaNo chatroom to talk to others, but somehow I keep forgetting to go there ... I really should visit them more often.
Now that I've become more active in my writing career, I have no idea whether I'll be participating in NaNo this year, but I still have plenty of time to figure that out.
Blaine D. wrote: "Cleon wrote: "I wish there were a writing group near me. As it is, most people don't even read much less write. Or even if there were a writing group, I could not share my M/M romance stories. So, ..."I know few Indonesians who are M/M fans like Lada on LJ and Ami here. Both are GREAT reviewers, especially Ami, and I will definitely ask their help to crit my work. Wouldn't it be so cool for the 1st Indonesian to publish in this genre? lol.
Cleon wrote: "Blaine D. wrote: "Cleon wrote: "I wish there were a writing group near me. As it is, most people don't even read much less write. Or even if there were a writing group, I could not share my M/M rom..."That would be awesome, Cleon. :)
Anne wrote: "Cleon wrote: "Blaine D. wrote: "Cleon wrote: "I wish there were a writing group near me. As it is, most people don't even read much less write. Or even if there were a writing group, I could not sh..."It would, wouldn't it? Anyway, I submitted my HJD. And btw, you aren't asleep yet? :P
Cleon wrote: "Anne wrote: "Cleon wrote: "Blaine D. wrote: "Cleon wrote: "I wish there were a writing group near me. As it is, most people don't even read much less write. Or even if there were a writing group, I..."Stayed up late, doing "research". I'll PM you.
Mod
Ha! I could no more stop editing than stop writing. It's probably a compulsion, but at least its a beneficial one. :)
Mod
That might be true, especially if English is not your first language. (Am I remembering that right?) In that case, it's even more crucial to try and prioritize in order to use your time effectively.
For example, it's much more important to have a likable protagonist than to rid the MS of dangling modifiers. If the protagonist is unlikable, no amount of modifier-removal, no matter how dangly, will make readers cotton to him and so until the protagonist's personality is spruced up, working on the MS at a sentence level is time ill-spent. That's why there are generally three rounds of editing and the reason that they go in the order that they do. The first for content, the second for lines (the actual sentences) and the third for grammar, spelling and punctuation.
Cleon wrote: "I don't want my beta to have any hesitation to point out my mistakes and I don't want to take more of their time than they have to. And they will spend more time if they have to think and rethink of the best way to break it to me that my story sucks or something. lol."
NK: I don't think it's irrational or selfish to expect a beta reader to take the time to formulate a thoughtful answer. Wouldn't you take the time if you were reading someone else's story?
ns wrote: "Hey Nicole! Dump these guys! Write More! I want a Ghost Star Night #2!! And more in the Red Thread world, too! :) "
NOOOOOOOOS! Don't takes away my editor!!!!!!!! I needs her for write good!
Though seriously, I do agree that Nicole is an awesome author. I can't wait for another of her books.
Nicole wrote: "That might be true, especially if English is not your first language. (Am I remembering that right?) In that case, it's even more crucial to try and prioritize in order to use your time effectively. "Yeah, but I don't want to use it as an excuse. Blaine, Lou, and Taylor are also ESL writers and they do great. :) But I get what you mean.
That's why there are generally three rounds of editing and the reason that they go in the order that they do. The first for content, the second for lines (the actual sentences) and the third for grammar, spelling and punctuation.
Yeah, but like Kari have said, professional editing & beta reading are different, since usually beta readers only read the manuscript once.
I don't think it's irrational or selfish to expect a beta reader to take the time to formulate a thoughtful answer. Wouldn't you take the time if you were reading someone else's story?
I admit that that is my personal flaw. I really really hate imposing on people, especially since I am worried that they have spent a lot of time helping me with line edits. I am a people pleaser a lot of time, except when I get emotional. lol.
Ginn wrote: "ns wrote: "Hey Nicole! Dump these guys! Write More! I want a Ghost Star Night #2!! And more in the Red Thread world, too! :) "
NOOOOOOOOS! Don't takes away my editor!!!!!!!! I needs her for write..."
Me too! I want the Bellingham Mystery 4 now! LOL. I still have 2 of her books on to-read list though, so I am good.
And I am waiting for your series to be finished before I read. lol. Or else I am going to get crazy waiting for the next installment.
Mod
I can see your point here if you are talking about a MS that you are writing without a contract to submit to an editor who you haven't worked with before. Obviously, you want to put your best foot forward because you don't have the job yet.
But if you're talking about sending a limping MS to the editor who has contracted it then I suggest you might be missing the mark a little. No human being on Earth has more of a stake in your MS succeeding than the editor who acquired it. No one will try harder to make it fly. More than that, your editor will make suggestions that are geared toward making the MS fit in with their company's existing product line so that can actually help during the decision-making process. (And by decision-making process, I mean when you as the author are deciding how you will handle revisions.)
Cleon wrote: "...So, if I ask someone to beta read my work, I genuinely want to know if I do something wrong. I don't want my beta to have any hesitation to point out my mistakes and I don't want to take more of their time than they have to. And they will spend more time if they have to think and rethink of the best way to break it to me that my story sucks or something..."I suspect that the really good beta readers are the ones who already have an instinct for how to point out and explain what they feel is not working in a manuscript, as opposed to just writing, "THIS ALL SUCKS!"
I think they're the ones who are already doing what Nicole suggests, and helping the authors, not just destroying manuscripts.
Ginn wrote: "Cleon wrote: "...So, if I ask someone to beta read my work, I genuinely want to know if I do something wrong. I don't want my beta to have any hesitation to point out my mistakes and I don't want t..."I have been fortunate indeed never to come across such terrible beta readers, I don't even know such people exist. Even my beta readers for my fanfic are awesome.
Mod
I've made my share of big mistakes in critiquing others which is kind of where I was coming from on this.
One thing I did was send a critique to a friend with the subject header BRACE YOURSELF.
:-D
I was just trying to prepare her for an in-depth edit, which she'd never had before, but that subject header was so ominous she was afraid to open the file. And I don't blame her. I wouldn't have opened that either. Why didn't I just make DEADLY POISON the subject header?
Mod
No, no. Don't shut up.
Learning to critique and beta is a skill like any skill. Nobody is a "natural" at it.
It's a wonderful thing when you can find really good beta or critique partners.
I rarely use anyone to beta or critique, but I've had good luck the times I've tried it out. The only time it hasn't worked so well is when I was expecting the critiquer to be a mind-reader or when I was rushing someone to give me a quick answer.
Mod
Well, that's just because it's not merely a notion so much as a statement of fact. :)
And just for you I will write the first few sentences of the sequel to Ghost Star Night right now. (These are from somewhere near the middle of the book because I do not write chronologically):
"You are far too young for me," Drake said.
"Only physically," Myrdin pointed out.
"Physicality does actually matter." Drake leaned against the wall, crossed his arms, and wished that smoking hadn't been banned indoors. He would have liked a prop to get through this conversation. "Anyway, I'm not attracted to you."
Myrdin didn't blink. Rather he moved closer even going so far as to put his palm against the wall, alongside Drake's head, and lean into him as though he were the protagonist in some teen romance film.
Not at this move wasn't effective, especially when made shirtless--a fact that irritated Drake even further.
Myrdin loomed over him, full of muscle tone and hormones. Leaning very close to Drake's ear he said, "you are such a hopeless liar."
Josh wrote: "Cleon wrote: "Josh wrote: "I belong to a couple of real life critique groups and in one group we had a woman who hated - HATED - another member's work. She would write comments like I HATE THIS CHA..."That's hilarious!
I learned a lot about critiquing in art school. Especially what not to do. Tone is so important. If you think of yourself as offering honest but constructive crits with no intention to wound, it seems to work better. I try not to crit the work of someone I don't like or don't respect. It makes the world a better place. I'm just happy not to be in a position where I have to (knock wood).
Mod
That's pretty much the way of it. In fact, I've found that's often true in general. That the people who are most touchy about their own feelings are often the least caring about other people's.
Mod
No. Not at all. Impatient? Well, sort of. This is such a very young genre and it's hard to remember th..."
Now there's a subject header. GET YOUR HANDS OFF MY HAMSTER.
Mod
Either way...I told her it didn't work like that. :-D
Mod
LMFAO! Seriously, I am leaking tiny tears right now.
Josh wrote: "GET YOUR HANDS OFF MY HAMSTER."
LMAO!
Josh wrote: "Anne wrote: "Amanda wrote: "Anne wrote: "Amanda wrote: "Josh wrote: "Um, Josh? You "sound" almost angry...No. Not at all. Impatient? Well, sort of. This is such a very young genre and it's hard..."
LOL Anne! I second that idea. But, wait. Maybe we'd just end up spinning the same old wheel. We might have gotten just about all the mileage we can out of him.:D
Nicole wrote: "And just for you I will write the first few sentences of the sequel to Ghost Star Night right now. (These are from somewhere near the middle of the book because I do not write chronologically):"Your such a tease! How am I to hold out until it's released knowing this snippet but not knowing where the scene fits? ;-))
btw: I'm horrified by the amount of hamster abuse in this group, wet hamsters, wounded hamsters... what's next? Poor little things...
Josh wrote: "I had someone who wanted to join a group but she wanted everyone to sign release forms first. I forget if the forms were to protect her from us stealing her work or her stealing ours. Either wa..."
Well, maybe she just read your All She Wrote and she's scared you'd kill her to get to her work. :D
Mod
Um... seriously that's all there is of this novel--what I just wrote. Even I have no idea where that scene fits. I know it's in there, though. And also I think there might be some sort of big monster someplace near the end and also I will probably include some horses because I want to make Astrid Amara smile. :)
There you go, now you know exactly how I start writing a novel. (Speaking of things that are revealed in writers groups.)
Mod
This is certainly true. Completely different roles.
And even with editors...it's not like I need a lot of smiley faces and reassurance from someone I work with all the time. After a while you develop a shorthand. I know they like my work or they wouldn't keep buying and they know that if I do actually object to an edit it's important to me because my basic mode is "accept all." But when you're working with someone new or you're still figuring out your communication style, those little niceities matter.
It helps to communicate expectation too (as with everything in life). I might shoot something over to someone and say "what do you think about X." In other words, don't waste time on Y and Z, just tell me what's up with X.
Or punctuation.
I had a critique partner at one time who would add in all these semi-colons. I love semi-colons and semi-colons are underused in modern editing, but since my publishers were going to take all those semi-colons out again, I finally told him to just skip punctuation. Publishers have their own house styles and their own copy and proof editors for a reason, and anyone who thinks one size fits all in punctuation or grammar hasn't had to work with a variety of publishing houses yet.
If you want to save your sanity, you learn to just go with the flow.
Cleon wrote: "Me too! I want the Bellingham Mystery 4 now! LOL. I still have 2 of her books on to-read list though, so I am good...."I think I've read everything that's out. But like you I'm stoked about the Bellingham Mysteries. Nick and Peter are such an interesting pair!
Josh wrote: "Now there's a subject header. GET YOUR HANDS OFF MY HAMSTER. "See, that just might give the wrong impression. What if they thought it was a sex scene?
Amanda wrote: "Josh wrote: "Anne wrote: "Amanda wrote: "Anne wrote: "Amanda wrote: "Josh wrote: "Um, Josh? You "sound" almost angry...No. Not at all. Impatient? Well, sort of. This is such a very young genre an..."
unfortunately, it probably won't stop me from trying...
Anne wrote: "Josh wrote: "Now there's a subject header. GET YOUR HANDS OFF MY HAMSTER. "See, that just might give the wrong impression. What if they thought it was a sex scene?"
Don't make me laugh out loud in the middle of the night (or morning), Anne. They are going to lock me up.
Cleon wrote: "They are going to lock me up. "Now wouldn't that give you plenty of time to write?
lol
Blaine D. wrote: "Cleon wrote: "They are going to lock me up. "Now wouldn't that give you plenty of time to write?
lol"
Hi, Blaine! In straitjacket? :P . Well, maybe I will get many inspirations for bondage stories.
Cleon wrote: "Blaine D. wrote: "Cleon wrote: "They are going to lock me up. "Now wouldn't that give you plenty of time to write?
lol"
Hi, Blaine! In straitjacket? :P . Well, maybe I will get many inspiration..."
Och, you can always dictate :)
Ginn wrote: "ns wrote: "Hey Nicole! Dump these guys! Write More! I want a Ghost Star Night #2!! And more in the Red Thread world, too! :) "
NOOOOOOOOS! Don't takes away my editor!!!!!!!! I needs her for write..."
ROFL...wait, er, crap, you're on this list too? Er, in the event someone made an inadvisable reference to an author's abduction (not that I'm saying someone did, mind you) it was all likely very hypothetical, and not something anyone should pay attention to at all, REALLY. In short, there is NO such plan, no sirree...
Nicole wrote: And just for you I will write theSWOOOON!
first few sentences of the sequel to Ghost Star Night right now. (These are from somewhere near the middle of the book because I do not write chronologically):
Words fail me, honestly...how do you do that?
"You are far too young for me," Drake said.
"Only physically," Myrdin pointed out.
"Physicality does actually matter." Drake leaned against the wall, crossed his arms, and wished that smoking hadn't been banned indoors. He would have liked a prop to get through this conversation. "Anyway, I'm not attracted to you."
Myrdin didn't blink. Rather he moved closer even going so far as to put his palm against the wall, alongside Drake's head, and lean into him as though he were the protagonist in some teen romance film.
Not at this move wasn't effective, especially when made shirtless--a fact that irritated Drake even further.
Myrdin loomed over him, full of muscle tone and hormones. Leaning very close to Drake's ear he said, "you are such a hopeless liar."
Just strictly hypothetically, if you were abducted, say, and were kept from your editing duties, and ....
Me wants, wants, wants!!!
NS you don't know the restraint I'm showing in not making a hamster joke right now.
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Q&A with Josh Lanyon
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Part of the problem, I think, is we're muddying CPs/betas..."
We also have a weird situation in the MMCrits group right now, with 5 (I think) writers doing HJD stories. We're actually trying to edit each other to some extent, because it's the only editing we get.
The multiple viewpoints available in belonging to a group is invaluable. I think LC said it earlier -- if it's something I'm attached to, I don't change it until multiple betas mention it being a problem. And even then I don't sometimes ("Me Tarzan, you Jane").