Q&A with Josh Lanyon discussion
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Writing Questions for Josh
Anne wrote: "like to know what's working/isn't working. "Exactly.
It's not so much right/wrong (even though we might use those words), but sometimes an idea you have just doesn't come across on paper the way you think it does. It helps if someone points that out.
And yes, right/wrong is very much a matter of perception.
Anne wrote: ...my suggestions are for you to first ask her..."Well of course I did that, but she's also a relative newbie so naturally her answer was "I want to know everything and I love suggestions" and then lots of politeness about how helpful it all is. Which is lovely, but I don't want to be overstepping.
Anne wrote: "...read Nicole's article..."
Great idea, for me anyway. But I've lost track in the thread. Could someone pretty please point me at where to find it again?
Kaje wrote: "Anne wrote: "...read Nicole's article..."Great idea, for me anyway. But I've lost track in the thread. Could someone pretty please point me at where to find it again? "
http://www.reviewsbyjessewave.com/201...
Blaine D. wrote: "Kaje wrote: "Anne wrote: "...read Nicole's article..."Great idea, for me anyway. But I've lost track in the thread. Could someone pretty please point me at where to find it again? "
http://www.r..."
Thanks so much. I went and read it, and I probably have been a little over-enthusiastic and over-intrusive and I'll try to practice restraint. (I've offered her the option of Beta-ing the story I wrote Wednesday, so she can turn the tables if she wishes.) :) Thanks for all the input.
Nicole wrote: "Hey all,Last month I was involved in a discussion here about how to be a good beta reader. I ended up writing my ideas about it into a post for Jessewave today. If you're interested it's here:
ht..."
Your article started a very spirited discussion on the M/M crit group. We didn't adopt it all but it got us thinking. Mostly the writers there want their critiquing a little more robust. They don't need the wounded hamster treatment. :-)
Josh wrote: "Leave it to Chris to ask the tough questions right out of the box! ;-)I detest the practice of labeling all m/m erotica. Is it romance fiction, yes. Is all romance fiction erotica? No.
Some..."
Ah to live in a town where there actually IS a decent LGBTQ fiction section would be fantastic. Alas, I live just outside of Lynchburg, Virginia. Jerry Falwell and all that. Being out and proud here is not easy. But, then, its not really easy anywhere. Just had to change my twitter over to my writer name because my family living in other cities were giving me grief over my writing plans. But, I won't let ignorance stop me!
I, too, am unhappy with the fact that all stories are labeled as erotica when Josh, your stories clearly are not any such thing. It's been bugging me for a while so I just wanted to chime in on that.
Also, thanks to all of you for the lengthy discussion on publishing houses. You all have been so helpful to me, even though I often can't be here to join the conversation as it happens.
Also, have traded beta reading with some authors in a couple of writer's groups. Had to laugh at the "wounded hamster" comment. It is so unhelpful to just get cheer leading or nitpicking and no actual thoughtful, constructive criticism. Although, as usual, I agree with Josh it can be hard for the writer to not let criticism derail the writing if you ask for it too early in the process and/or your beta readers are not respectful of the process. Anyway, again, all of your comments here have been very helpful and thought provoking on how to improve that skill, as well. Since I'm new here, I'm still catching up on your discussions. Sorry to return you to old threads. I'll try to get current quick. ;)
Mod
What I find funny about this and some of the reactions on Jessewave's site was the idea that Nicole would be some sort of Florence Nightingale with a cold compress and a bottle of valium trying to nurse weak manuscripts and lame ass writers through the process. :-)
First off, she's one of the toughest, most aggressive, insightful editors out there -- she's also probably the single most award-winning editor in m/m fiction. I don't mean her writing -- although, yes, she's an award winning writer herself -- I mean she's edited more award-winning m/m novels than any other editor in our genre. Big awards. ;-D
She's talking from experience -- experience that very few beta readers or CP readers or even writers -- have. >{:-0
Secondly, the idea that Nicole, who is ferociously picky about *buying* manuscripts, would be investing in some piece of crap that she'd have to finesse and fix into publishable shape is just silly. Who would do that? 8-P
Because BEB does invest in the books they publish. They pay an advance (and not a token advance) and they do a real print run. So they can't afford to take chances as some of the smaller presses can. ;-$
And as far as writers being wet hamsters, let me just say here and now, I *like* a little tact and diplomacy from my editors. I don't need to be hit over the head with every possible thing they may not like in a first read, and I sure as hell don't need it from a CP/beta. :-O
And, call me a wet hamster at your peril. I will cheerfully pit my mad ritin skilz against any comer who thinks a writer who requires a little reassurance now and then can't cut it. :-P
Mod
But you see, that's why being a really good beta or CP partner isn't as easy as it looks. A really good beta/CP knows when to use the carrot and when to use the stick.
Being a top-notch editor is as much about knowing people as knowing literature. The editor's job is to get the best possible book out an author by any means necessary so that the book does well for the publishing house that invested in the author.
If you want to strip the glamour away, it's about building a better product. Writing is a business as well as an art.
Mod
Last month I was involved in a discussion here about how to be a good beta reader. I ended up writing my ideas about it into a post for Jessewave today. If you're intereste..."
By the way, Charming, if that sounded like I was tying into you, I wasn't! There were a couple of comments in that original JW discussion thread that made me roll my eyes. That's what I was actually responding to.
Josh wrote: "Your article started a very spirited discussion on the M/M crit group. We didn't adopt it all but it got us thinking. Mostly the writers there want their critiquing a little more robust. They don't..."Um, Josh? You "sound" almost angry...
Josh wrote: "What I find funny about this and some of the reactions on Jessewave's site was the idea that Nicole would be some sort of Florence Nightingale with a cold compress and a bottle of valium trying to nurse weak manuscripts and lame ass writers through the process. "I haven't read the comments, but that sounds pretty far off the mark. Insulting even
I feel I'm on a learning curve with our critique group.
I'm not perfect and I think I need a sticky note to remind me to insert smileys.
I doubt I'll ever covet a position as an editor, but I hope, within the group, I'm growing.
Well, I was very impressed with Nicole's handling of at least one of those rather, er, aggressive responders. She has deadpan, intelligent humor and she just cracks me up..that was what I was referring to in one of my previous posts. I just loved, loved, loved that putdown (she may not have meant it as such). I've really got to hand it to her -- she's come across to me at least as the most emotionally mature, off-the-charts-EQ person in the book industry.
I know she's a great editor, but I have to be honest, I loved her books and was disappointed to learn she was not going to have a release this year (and very little next year).
I wish she'd dump the editing gig for a while (what do you'll need editors for, anyway? You are all GREAT writers as it is!) and write more. This reader's selfish take on things, at any rate :).
Hey Nicole! Dump these guys! Write More! I want a Ghost Star Night #2!! And more in the Red Thread world, too! :)
Mod
No. Not at all. Impatient? Well, sort of. This is such a very young genre and it's hard to remember that most of the people here, from the writers to the publishers are just making it up as they go along.
That's the problem with the flat written word. Picture a bunch of smiley faces in there. In fact I'll go in and add them and you'll all be amazed at the result. :-)
Anne wrote: "Josh wrote: "Your article started a very spirited discussion on the M/M crit group. We didn't adopt it all but it got us thinking. Mostly the writers there want their critiquing a little more robus..."Um... yeah, sorry if we somehow offends you or Nicole. I am just thinking that I am a newbie and can't afford to have thin skin for anything and I make like thousands of mistakes. Beta readers are invaluable, but unfortunately, time is limited and they are high in demand. So, if I ask someone to beta read my work, I genuinely want to know if I do something wrong. I don't want my beta to have any hesitation to point out my mistakes and I don't want to take more of their time than they have to. And they will spend more time if they have to think and rethink of the best way to break it to me that my story sucks or something. lol.
It never crosses my mind that Nicole is a weak editor (I'd really really love to be able to work with her one day. Well, I can dream).
Mod
No. Not at all. Impatient? Well, sort of. This is such a very young genre and it's hard to remember that most of the people here, from the writers to the pu..."
There. How's that? I couldn't remember the emoticon for devil.
Josh wrote: "Picture a bunch of smiley faces in there. In fact I'll go in and add them and you'll all be amazed at the result. :-) "You don't have to. We all go on about how we're not wounded hamsters and then I get a little worried about a post? I'm not reinforcing the healthy hamster image.
Besides, it's nice to know you feel you can vent. :)
Anne wrote: "Josh wrote: "Picture a bunch of smiley faces in there. In fact I'll go in and add them and you'll all be amazed at the result. :-) "You don't have to. We all go on about how we're not wounded ha..."
Anne, you are a wounded rabid hamster. There. I said it. *ducks*
Josh wrote: "Josh wrote: "Um, Josh? You "sound" almost angry...No. Not at all. Impatient? Well, sort of. This is such a very young genre and it's hard to remember that most of the people here, from the writ..."
I think you just made a bunch of those up. {8>) But it definitely helps.
Cleon wrote: "Anne wrote: "Josh wrote: "Picture a bunch of smiley faces in there. In fact I'll go in and add them and you'll all be amazed at the result. :-) "You don't have to. We all go on about how we're n..."
Cleon, really now. There's no call to call a spade a spade here! :)
Anne wrote: "I think you just made a bunch of those up. {8>) But it definitely helps. "Was that the devil? OK, that explains that one!
Mod
Of course! And anyone who's paid for an evaluation from me knows I don't exactly pull my punches. In fact, I could definitely afford to work on the kinder/gentler thing.
But while I'm laying it on the line, I try to remember to point out everything that's right and to phrase my criticisms in ways that will be productive not demoralizing.
I do absolutely offer solutions with the criticisms because it could take a new writer a very long time to hit on what to me is quite obvious. I have the advantage of experience, and I think offering a solution -- whether the author takes it or not -- can make the laundry list of woes seem a bit more manageable.
I guess there's a learning curve to everything and it'll just take time. I'll aim somewhere between veterinarian with a wounded hamster and tree-trimmer with a chain saw, and hope my writer tells me what helps and what doesn't. (Personally I kind of like the chain saw. By the time I'm editing I hate my stuff so much I'm desperate for anything that might make it better.)
ns wrote: "(what do you'll need editors for, anyway? You are all GREAT writers as it is!)Um, hello? Do you not remember my panicked PM yesterday banning you from ever reading my first book? Editors (good ones) have much more to do than simply edit. They hold our virtual hands.
Okay, fine, I've beaten the wounded hamster analogy to death, but a good editor is like a good hamster doctor. Most of the time, when your kid's hamster is wounded (or has a huge tumor on it's stomach), you wait until they go to school, then you rush it to a vet who puts a shot in it's neck and it goes to sleep. Then you tell the kid you went to give it water and found it dead. Then you hold a funeral in the back yard.
But what if I had a hamster specialist to take it to? A good hamster vet, they're few and far between (are there any?), and one is worth it's weight in gold.
Somebody tell me to shut up.
Yes, there are hamster vets. (Look for "specializing in exotics and pocket pets" in the clinic info.) Just FYI. And they're worth a lot when you love the hamster. (okay, I'll drop the analogy too.)
Mod
Yes, Nicole is never going to point out the obvious -- her successful track record.
ACK. But please don't encourage her to give up editing. Not if you have any kindness in your heart forr me, Ginn, Astrid, and the long list of authors who've benefitted from Nicole's guiding hand.
ns wrote: "Anne wrote: "I think you just made a bunch of those up. {8>) But it definitely helps. "Was that the devil? OK, that explains that one!"
No, it has a pointy chin like so >. And maybe over the eyes it has } I can't remember it either. i just made that one up.
Josh wrote: "And, not to be arrogant here, but I will cheerfully pit my mad ritin skilz against any comer who thinks a writer who requires a little reassurance now and then can't cut it."LOL, I don't think anyone's arguing that the occasional smiley and comments about what works well is a bad thing. It's so not.
Part of the problem, I think, is we're muddying CPs/betas with editors. While it's true everyone is different, CPs and betas generally handle me much differently than my editors do. I have a different set of expectations. I also approach CPs/betas differently. It's a whole different process.
For example...If Nicole were my editor, I would never, ever in a million years take a book I'm struggling with to her, not while she's functioning in that editor role, and she'd likely kick my butt to the curb (deservedly so) if I did. But acting as my beta or CP? Yeah, I probably would take that problem manuscript to her and beg shamelessly for help.
I expect my editors to be tougher too and less worried about pissing me off or provoking insta-meltdown, principally because the manuscript is at a different, steadier stage in the writing process. Do I want the whole kettle of fish when it comes to problems at first blush? Not from an editor, no, but at first blush, we're tackling content edits and those, I want (and generally get) all at once. Stylistic/technical crap comes later during line edits. It's set up (ideally) as a multi-staged process. Whereas with CPs/betas...Odds are good they'll only see the book once (and possibly not all of it) before it sells. So hit me with your best shot the first time. I want to know everything that's wrong with it before I make a fool of myself with some poor unsuspecting editor, LOL.
If that makes any sense?
Josh wrote: "I do absolutely offer solutions with the criticisms because it could take a new writer a very long time to hit on what to me is quite obvious. I have the advantage of experience, and I think offering a solution -- whether the author takes it or not -- can make the laundry list of woes seem a bit more manageable"Offering solutions is great, even if you don't take them, because it sometimes helps you see the situation from a different perspective. And while I need the hand-holding thing it's nice to feel like the person who's critiquing you believes you have the ability to fix something. If they don't mention it, and you find out later it was a problem? Sometimes that feels like they have so little faith in your abilities that they didn't want to overwhelm you, or make you feel inept.
Anne wrote: "ns wrote: "(what do you'll need editors for, anyway? You are all GREAT writers as it is!)Um, hello? Do you not remember my panicked PM yesterday banning you from ever reading my first book? Edi..."
It's dead of the night and I am laughing like a loon reading your hamster analogy.
Hamster rules!
Sorry, Josh, carry on.
Anne wrote: "Um, hello? Do you not remember my panicked PM yesterday banning you from ever reading my first book? Editors (good ones) have much more to do than simply edit. They hold our virtual hands.Okay, fine, I've beaten the wounded hamster analogy to death, but a good editor is like a good hamster doctor. Most of the time, when your kid's hamster is wounded (or has a huge tumor on it's stomach), you wait until they go to school, then you rush it to a vet who puts a shot in it's neck and it goes to sleep. Then you tell the kid you went to give it water and found it dead. Then you hold a funeral in the back yard.
But what if I had a hamster specialist to take it to? A good hamster vet, they're few and far between (are there any?), and one is worth it's weight in gold.
Somebody tell me to shut up. "
Y'all know none of you are dispelling the universally accepted notion that authors are a breed somewhere between opera divas, movie star celebrities and other artists when it comes to being rather emotionally fragile, overly vulnerable, extremely sensitive and somewhat high-strung about your art/writing, right? Please noone cut off a ear or anything. Van Gogh's painting would have been JUST as good had he had two full ears.
Yes, of course you all need a great editor. That helps. You also all need some Valium. That will really, really help, too :).
No, I'm not being serious about any of this, of course. It was all a bit tongue-in-cheek. I'm not laughing AT you guys, I'm laughing WITH you guys. Really. I find it all rather endearing, actually.
But that "Nicole should write more" wanting. Yes, that bit was sincere. Me wants, me wants...
Cleon wrote: "Anne wrote: "Josh wrote: "Picture a bunch of smiley faces in there. In fact I'll go in and add them and you'll all be amazed at the result. :-) "You don't have to. We all go on about how we're n..."
You should post that picture of me on this thread...
Kaje wrote: "Yes, there are hamster vets. (Look for "specializing in exotics and pocket pets" in the clinic info.) Just FYI. And they're worth a lot when you love the hamster. (okay, I'll drop the analogy too.)"That's good to know, but I probably wouldn't spend the money on a hamster. I'm cold-hearted that way...
Oh lord, I am so not going to read the comments on Nicole's post at wave if they're that antagonistic.And if what I previously posted a few minutes ago makes me sound like a ginormous dickhead in the context of whatever flaming comments are at wave, was unintentional, please ignore me.
Please, please, please...Don't hurt me, I want to live...LOL
Anne wrote: "Cleon wrote: "Anne wrote: "Josh wrote: "Picture a bunch of smiley faces in there. In fact I'll go in and add them and you'll all be amazed at the result. :-) "You don't have to. We all go on abo..."
You are probably going to hurt me ( in good ways, I hope), but oh well.
Josh is really going to ban me now, isn't he?
Okay, just so we're clear, I'm having fun with this thread and am not offended.ETA: And I don't mean to offend, either.
Mod
You don't have to. We all go on about how we're not wounded ha..."
:-D If I'd really been *angry* I'd have posted on the Jessewave site. I just -- well, you guys know this about me by now -- get impatient sometimes. Anyway, I'd rather post here where we can have a real discussion and maybe we all learn something useful.
If you're too sensitive to make it through the editing process, you're not going to make it in this business. But surely we all know that! Fragile flowers need not apply -- this is a tough business. Even brutal sometimes. But you don't need brutality from the people you turn to for help.
I firmly disagree with the notion that honesty must be brutal. Honesty can be hard enough to bear. If you know what you're doing, you can tell someone their book will never be published as is without actually saying those words.
Anne wrote: "Okay, just so we're clear, I'm having fun with this thread and am not offended.ETA: And I don't mean to offend, either."
I'm waiting to see if that picture was an actor playing a wounded hamster (ergo, ketchup, not blood). Because if I find out that real hamsters were harmed in the production of this analogy, well, all bets are off. My card-carrying PETA self would self-immolate.
ns wrote: "Anne wrote: "I think you just made a bunch of those up. {8>) But it definitely helps. "Was that the devil? OK, that explains that one!"
Actually, that looks more like Phineas or Ferb LOL
Mod
You don't have to. We ..."
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA. You're INSANE.
Okay, I got to finish this post for Jessewave or I'll never get over to my dad's -- and there's someone who has no hesitation about giving an unfavorable review of one's performance. :-D
Kari wrote: "Josh wrote: "And, not to be arrogant here, but I will cheerfully pit my mad ritin skilz against any comer who thinks a writer who requires a little reassurance now and then can't cut it."LOL, I d..."
Yes, that's make a lot of sense, Kari. And certainly true. Beta reading & professional editing are 2 different animals.
Josh wrote: "Anne wrote: "Josh wrote: "Picture a bunch of smiley faces in there. In fact I'll go in and add them and you'll all be amazed at the result. :-) "You don't have to. We all go on about how we're..."
The problem with this is something you mentioned earlier: flat writing.
I mean, we all try to insert emotions and feelings into our writing, but critiquing is a whole new world.
Not to mention that what someone thinks is an honest, polite and friendly phrased suggestion, others might feel differently.
Sometimes it takes me a while before I dare to write a reply, because I'm afraid the way I phrase it might be taken the wrong way.
A simple example (despite the language barrier)
'You know what you should do?' is a very common way of people trying to give you advice. (although the Dutch version sound a lot more like HAVE to than should - which is part of my problem)
I've heard this so many times while growing up, that I automatically start to shut out the speaker if they use this to start giving me their advice, even when I know full well that they don't mean it the way I think they mean it.
Anne wrote: "Offering solutions is great, even if you don't take them, because it sometimes helps you see the situation from a different perspective. And while I need the hand-holding thing it's nice to feel like the person who's critiquing you believes you have the ability to fix something. If they don't mention it, and you find out later it was a problem? Sometimes that feels like they have so little faith in your abilities that they didn't want to overwhelm you, or make you feel inept."This is where I pull out everyone's old favorite: "It's not you, it's me."
Having spent years in a critique group that's evolved through many members, I know sometimes it's not that I don't think you can take it. It's that I can't put my finger on what's wrong. And "I don't like this" is not a particularly helpful comment. So I find other things to comment on. Sometimes as you get further into the story it clicks into place and I'll say "you know when you did xyz 50 pages ago? What about this?" Sometime that brain wave never happens, and I'll still hate your stupid story. But I'll never tell you that because you're my CP and friend, and I believe in your talent even if I can't wait for you to drop this one in the circular file and move on.
ns wrote: "Anne wrote: "Okay, just so we're clear, I'm having fun with this thread and am not offended.ETA: And I don't mean to offend, either."
I'm waiting to see if that picture was an actor playing a w..."
Wait, what blood?
Josh wrote: "Cleon wrote: "Anne wrote: "Cleon wrote: "Anne wrote: "Josh wrote: "Picture a bunch of smiley faces in there. In fact I'll go in and add them and you'll all be amazed at the result. :-) "You don..."
LOL. Parents...
Josh wrote: "Cleon wrote: "Anne wrote: "Cleon wrote: "Anne wrote: "Josh wrote: "Picture a bunch of smiley faces in there. In fact I'll go in and add them and you'll all be amazed at the result. :-) "You don..."
And sleep deprived. lol. Let us know if your reply is posted there and have fun with your dad! :)
Becky wrote: "Anne wrote: "Offering solutions is great, even if you don't take them, because it sometimes helps you see the situation from a different perspective. And while I need the hand-holding thing it's ni..."You're right, Becky. I rarely say "I don't like this, although I can't tell you why, exactly." That's the stuff I definitely ignore when critiquing.
I agree that diplomatic skills are required when approaching anyone else's writing. I haven't been an editor but I have edited lots of student writing and handed out plenty of tissues in the process (no, I'm not mean, but you never know when you're going to hit that supersensitive spot). I also once received a "critique" so brutally personal that it took me a long time to recover. Now I think of myself as someone who "can take it" but that doesn't mean I want to forgo whatever sugar coating is available to help the medicine go down.
Kari wrote: LOL, I don't think anyone's arguing that the occasional smiley and comments about what works well is a bad thing. It's so not.Part of the problem, I think, is we're muddying CPs/betas with editors."
Actually, there are several levels of conflating going on here. :-)
For example, the responses to the JesseWave article versus the M/M group discussion. In the M/M group, I really was checking in with the writers and finding out what they wanted, and most of the writers weighed in. I am not dissing either Josh's writing or Nicole's editing when I say that the writers don't want quite such kid gloves from the betas in that group.
Second, yeah, betas aren't editors. For one thing, in the M/M group, every story is going to get several reviews. It makes it clear that any one critique really is one (non-editor) point of view and doesn't have to be taken so seriously. Since we betas aren't even going to agree with each other, obviously the writers have to take what they need and leave the rest.
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Q&A with Josh Lanyon
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I hate all my work while I'm in the rough draft stage. I may or may not enjoy t..."
Oh, god, I'm on-line right now because I'm taking a break from the second edits on my ms. I HATE the thing right now.