Q&A with Josh Lanyon discussion
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Writing Questions for Josh
You could always use this as an experiment to see how you react to having people comment on chapters as you go. If you freak out and hate it then you'll know not to do it again.
Dev wrote: "I'm very touchy about having anyone else read my stories in progress. I do have one beta reader who I send chapters too by email but she's under strict instructions to say nothing negative and only..."I think it's the same with every time one gives constructive criticism. There should be a lot more positive than negative because we tend to put the emphasis on the negative when hearing it and it can be devastating.
Dev wrote: "I'm very touchy about having anyone else read my stories in progress. I do have one beta reader who I send chapters too by email but she's under strict instructions to say nothing negative and only..."I'm terrified of someone's crit affecting how the story is going, that's why I prefer to write the whole thing, generally. My experience with Hot July Days wasn't the same, though. The group didn't affect how it went, they just made it stronger. It was terrifying at first, though...
Calathea wrote: "I think it's the same with every time one gives constructive criticism. There should be a lot more positive than negative because we tend to put the emphasis on the negative when hearing it and it can be devastating. "It really is important that your critic knows how to give constructive criticism, also. I think Nicole's article was very good for that, but at some point you want more and you can take more.
In the beginning of the article, Nicole says something like "The author knows something isn't right with the piece, that's why she sent it to you." I'm past that -- I send it for crits because I want to know what others get out of reading it, whether it works, etc. I may be convinced it's the next Harry Potter, but I need to know other people are, too.
Not that I don't also sometimes ask specific questions, like "Did I write a chick with a dick?"
Anne wrote: "Did I write a chick with a dick?" "Or a dick with a dick. *snorts*
I think everyone is different and sometimes I want different things at different times too. Sometimes I know where the story will go and I don't need feedback for that. Sometimes I don't and insights from others help me decide on what to do with the story.
Mod
Yep. Totally true.
Mod
And then you have to be able to communicate that to any potential critique partners. Coz very rarely is mind-reading part of that CP skill set.
Josh wrote: "Coz very rarely is mind-reading part of that CP skill set. "Now, wouldn't that be an awsome skill to have?
I definitely need to learn how to ask what I want critique partners to look for.
But so far I've been very happy with them :)
Mod
Once I'm past that fragile rough draft point, it's a different story. (Literally.)
Josh, what is your opinion about how we do the crit on M/M crit group? Any suggestion on how we can improve the process? Of course, right now all of us are frantically finish our work for HJD and others who have finished or not participating are frantically beta reading our fics. lol.
Josh wrote: "My basic process is I want to finish a rough draft before anyone takes a look. It can be -- and sometimes is -- a really, really rough draft, but I have to lay that foundation. Then I like it to go..."I think this is the second time I've read that comment from you -- you sometimes right a very rough first draft. Just how rough do you mean? This is just idle curiosity on my part. I'm not even sure it's answerable...
Now the question I really need the answer to: What do you do if the project is making you nuts and hard for you to write? Yet somehow, you need to write the dumb thing?
Josh wrote: "My basic process is I want to finish a rough draft before anyone takes a look. It can be -- and sometimes is -- a really, really rough draft, but I have to lay that foundation. Then I like it to go away for a bit while someone I trust takes a look at it. Very often they're going to come back and tell me exactly what I already knew -- but was hoping I might get away with -- or sometimes they'll tell me something I never thought of. But either way, I can deal with it once I have a clear idea of where I'm headed. Before that point the story, and my feelings about the story, are much more fragile. The wrong comment will make the work ten times harder and kill all my joy in the project. It never results in a better book.Once I'm past that fragile rough draft point, it's a different story. (Literally.) "
I can definitely see that.
Especially since the novel I'm still debating putting up for critique is already in editing/rewriting stage, even though my short stories were not.
I don't think I could let anyone have a peek at a novel if I hadn't finished writing at least the first draft (as rough as it may be). Mostly because, as you mentioned, I might not even know exactly where I'm going with it.
I guess short stories follow a different path. Since I had a sort of a grasp where I was going, but it wasn't set in stone. Actually, the crits on those first scenes helped me carve the path :)
Mod
Of course, right now all of us are frantically finish our work for HJD an..."
I think that process works well because we're not saying you can't write ahead of the critiques. The doling chapters out is more to prevent overload for the critiquers (who are mostly also working on their own projects).
And because the group has some really, really new writers -- along with more experienced -- that slow pace and having a chance to rework as you go is more beneficial. It can save people from veering too far off the track and having to delete pages and pages of stuff that simply doesn't work because it's all built on some totally bogus premise.
Your writing patterns evolve as you get more experienced. I can guarantee that the way you work now is unlikely to be the way you'll be doing it twenty years from now.
Josh wrote: "My basic process is I want to finish a rough draft before anyone takes a look. It can be -- and sometimes is -- a really, really rough draft, but I have to lay that foundation. Then I like it to go..."Another question, have you ever felt you can't stand looking at your work when you almost finished it?
Mod
My drafts have become progressively rougher as I get more tired and burnt out. And for that I apologize to all my wonderful editors -- most of whom, luckily, know me well enough to predict what I'm going to write from a sentences anyway.
Now days I basically write one third of a reasonably tight first draft, then a progressively rough second third, and the final chapters are usually only sketched out with a couple of scenes (if that). It's by no means the optimum way to work for any of us. It's a kind of creative shorthand I've developed to get me through the brutal (self-imposed) workload of the past couple of years.
Which is why I'm looking forward to working at a much slower pace in future.
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What I have found is there is no appreciable difference in the quality of the work regardless of how tired or burnt out I am or how little I'm enjoying the work or how fast I'm writing it.
It makes all the difference to my mental and emotional well-being, but to the work itself? No. CUTYS was written at one of my bleakest and most burnt-out-I-can't-write-another-word moments. Same with All She Wrote. Snowball in Hell took me about a week. In Sunshine and In Shadow took a day. A few hours in fact. The Dark Tide moved at a brisk, regular pace. This Rough Magic was written relatively slowly as was Somebody Killed His Editor and The Ghost Wore Yellow Socks.
If you're on a deadline and you have to keep moving, then keep moving. Hammer out that first draft one word, one line, one paragraph at a time. The magic happens in rewrite. Just get the foundation down.
If you can take the time and write more slowly, then yes. It will generally make for a richer and more textured book if you can take the time to layer, but as far as the end result and as far as the work readers will love the best...there just isn't any predicting.
Mod
I hate all my work while I'm in the rough draft stage. I may or may not enjoy the writing process itself, but by the time I finish a rough draft, I loathe the book. Then the edits come and I'm usually pleasantly surprised. Then the book comes out and all I can see is everything I did wrong or should have done and didn't. I almost never look at my work after its published.
Which is why during the cyber book launch party at Facebook I couldn't answer almost any questions about my own work! I just don't remember all the little details.
Josh wrote: "Now days I basically write one third of a reasonably tight first draft, then a progressively rough second third, and the final chapters are usually only sketched out with a couple of scenes (if that). It's by no means the optimum way to work for any of us. It's a kind of creative shorthand I've developed to get me through the brutal (self-imposed) workload of the past couple of years. "like you said :The thing about the creative process is there is NO single one right way to do it. We all have our quirks and our idiosyncracies, and part of learning to be an effective and successful writer is figuring out what you need to do to be productive and get the best results from yourself.
I just start writing, often with some idea of where I'm going, but along the way many things happen that make me take a left or right turn where I wouldn't have expected (like a blind date that just wouldn't go away and turned into the perfect bad guy and turned a short story into a novel)
As for the process. I don't think about whether my first draft is a first draft. I just write, mostly linear, and see where I'll end up. If I suddenly remember I should have added a scene in a previous chapter, I will go back and write that scene.
Of course, the novels I have in first draft form, have all been written during NaNoWriMo, meaning less thinking, plenty of time to plan in October and just write, write, write in November.
I know I have a lot of edting/rewriting to do. But the basic concepts I'm happy with :)
Josh wrote: "I think this is the second time I've read that comment from you -- you sometimes right a very rough first draft. Just how rough do you mean? This is just idle curiosity on my part. I'm not even sur..."Ouch. I don't know if I could do that -- have the last third be sketched out with a couple of scenes. OTOH, I'm on my second full-length novel, not my 200th or whatever you're on. Right now I think the one I'm working on might benefit from just being done that way. Then I'd be done.
Josh wrote: "Now the question I really need the answer to: What do you do if the project is making you nuts and hard for you to write? Yet somehow, you need to write the dumb thing?What I have found is ther..."
My deadline is self-imposed, but I think I have to meet it. I'm starting to second-guess the whole thing. I think they're behaving differently than characters I've written in the past, and that's making me nervous. I'm also kind of freaked that I didn't do enough research to convincingly write a futuristic special forces trooper.
But I remember that from the first long one -- I just wrote every day, whether I felt like it or not, and I couldn't tell you which parts I wrote on good days and which I wrote on bad when I looked back.
I really would have appreciated a magic formula, though, Josh. :-)
Mod
Ha! So true.I totally tried to get away with not writing a critical scene into Black Cat Ink and the group was like, "you know you have to write that, right?" And I'm all like, "It's artistic license, I'm creating a new kind of plot resolution," and the girls were like, "No you aren't. You're just being lazy."
It's terrible to have people know you well sometimes. :)
I have never ever written a novel length story before. My longest fic was 20k, and it was written in the span of 2 years. Of course, writing fanfic is very different from original fic. It's the instant gratification thing. lol. I have such a short attention span! I should ask LC to take out her biggest meanest crop for me if I haven't finished a novella length story by July next year. lol.
Nicole wrote: "Josh wrote: "Very often they're going to come back and tell me exactly what I already knew -- but was hoping I might get away with..."Ha! So true.I totally tried to get away with not writing a cr..."
LMAO!
Cleon wrote: "I have never ever written a novel length story before. My longest fic was 20k, and it was written in the span of 2 years. Of course, writing fanfic is very different from original fic. It's the ins..."*Snort*
You'd need so much plot for that, Cleon. I can turn a two-line plot into 40k, and you can turn a two-page plot into 10k. :-)
Mod
I find that writing 1000 words per day gets me through that. I can write into any part of the MS, but must increase the length 1000 words before I can stop. But I am also the sort of person who motivates themselves to do dishes by racing the coffee pot so those kind of "finish line--beat the clock" strategies works for me.
And if it's really bad, I write backwards while racing the clock--i.e. "I must write this scene in 30 minutes," then set a timer and go.
While I was at the Clarion workshop, one of the instructors (I cannot remember who) had this strategy: do not write the novel--write a facsimile of the novel. In other words, write some words that approximate the sort of words that you might use to write the actual story.
Nicole wrote: "While I was at the Clarion workshop, one of the instructors (I cannot remember who) had this strategy: do not write the novel--write a facsimile of the novel. In other words, write some words that approximate the sort of words that you might use to write the actual story. "I don't know why this sounds like a fantastic idea, but it does. Thank you. :-)
Lightning bolt moment: "Hey, that's kinda like writing a rough draft!"
Nicole wrote: "Anne wrote: "Now the question I really need the answer to: What do you do if the project is making you nuts and hard for you to write? Yet somehow, you need to write the dumb thing?"I find that w..."
I have a egg timer ... unfortunately the thing drives the kids nuts and I'm not allowed to use it when they're in the room (or my office, since it doesn't have a door and is right next to their bedrooms)
But I love using it. I mostly write in 15 minutes blocks when I do use it and during NaNo that meant about 600 words per 15 minutes.
I haven't used it since, though. I keep planning to, but for some reason I just don't even think about fishing it out of its drawer.
I actually want to do more than 1K a day ... but that's because I don't have a job to go to, so I feel I need to do more than that.
Anne wrote: "Cleon wrote: "I have never ever written a novel length story before. My longest fic was 20k, and it was written in the span of 2 years. Of course, writing fanfic is very different from original fic..."8k. LOL. I cut a lot of "telling". And yeah, I definitely the short story kind of girl. Many people say I pack a lot of plot into very short stories.
ETA: never mind, wrong thread. lol.
Mod
That's the beauty of the rough draft. Although probably 95% of what you write will stay as is, you play this little mind game that it's not the real thing. So anything can change and it doesn't matter if this draft sucks mongoose eggs.
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I think what might be happening is it takes the pressure of seeking excellence off long enough to accomplish the basic work.
Josh wrote: "While I was at the Clarion workshop, one of the instructors (I cannot remember who) had this strategy: do not write the novel--write a facsimile of the novel. In other words, write some words that ..."Mongoose lay eggs? Mongeese? Mongooses?
Nicole wrote: "Anne wrote: "I don't know why this sounds like a fantastic idea, but it does."I think what might be happening is it takes the pressure of seeking excellence off long enough to accomplish the basi..."
It certainly feels that way to me.
Cleon wrote: "Anne wrote: "Cleon wrote: "I have never ever written a novel length story before. My longest fic was 20k, and it was written in the span of 2 years. Of course, writing fanfic is very different from..."No, I think this is the right thread, Cleon. Isn't it?
Anne wrote: "Cleon wrote: "Anne wrote: "Cleon wrote: "I have never ever written a novel length story before. My longest fic was 20k, and it was written in the span of 2 years. Of course, writing fanfic is very ..."Well, I intend to brainstorm the plot in a private thread. lol. Never mind. We can discuss the plot later I guess, but now, my HJD is finished. Finally! a bit of line edits and it's ready for submission.
Cleon wrote: "Anne wrote: "Cleon wrote: "Anne wrote: "Cleon wrote: "I have never ever written a novel length story before. My longest fic was 20k, and it was written in the span of 2 years. Of course, writing fa..."Oh, sorry everyone, got confused myself. I need that embarrassed emoticon. What is it?
Anne wrote: "Cleon wrote: "Anne wrote: "Cleon wrote: "Anne wrote: "Cleon wrote: "I have never ever written a novel length story before. My longest fic was 20k, and it was written in the span of 2 years. Of cour..."No, I was the one who posted in the wrong thread and I needed the embarrassed emoticon.
Do you all know the tool "write or die"? I use the Nanowrimo (national novel writing month) to keep my word count up. You can set it to beep at you if you pause for too long - better than an egg timer because it keeps you going. Here's the link http://writeordie.com/
Dev wrote: "Do you all know the tool "write or die"? I use the Nanowrimo (national novel writing month) to keep my word count up. You can set it to beep at you if you pause for too long - better than an egg ti..."You don't mind writing in that program? Do you just cut and paste when your'e done?
Mod
Probably not. Maybe I'm thinking of a platypus?
Or maybe I'm just in the wrong corner of the zoo altogether. This is why God invented copyeditors, bless their nitpicky hearts.
Mod
Dev wrote: "Do you all know the tool "write or die"? I use the Nanowrimo (national novel writing month) to keep my word count up. You can set it to beep at you if you pause for too long - better than an egg ti..."I've heard of it, but it gives me the creeps.
I don't like writing outside the program I use and I'm too fearful of losing what I wrote.
For me the egg timer works better.
Josh wrote: "Anne wrote: "Mongoose lay eggs? Mongeese? Mongooses?.."Probably not. Maybe I'm thinking of a platypus?
Or maybe I'm just in the wrong corner of the zoo altogether. This is why God invented ..."
If you were thinking about mammals who lay eggs, then yes, it's definitely platypus.
Mod
Just throwing that out there, cause yesterday I kept hearing writers talk about wanting to know everything that is wrong with their MSs--as though every single aspect of a piece of fiction isn't just a matter of reader perception. (And just for the record, I can't think of a worse idea than telling anybody every single thing that you might think is wrong with anything about them, but I digress.)
Clearly critique is necessary for growth but this wrong/right thing is just bugging me.
Like I said, just throwing that out there.
Blaine D. wrote: "Dev wrote: "Do you all know the tool "write or die"? I use the Nanowrimo (national novel writing month) to keep my word count up. You can set it to beep at you if you pause for too long - better th..."I just set the buzzer for 20 minutes or so and cut and paste what I write into my document. I just set it to start blinking when I pause too long. It's most useful when I feel like I'm slogging through a scene or if I'm tired and my mind is wandering. So far (knock on wood) I haven't lost anything but since I never set it for more than 20 minutes it wouldn't be a disaster if I did.
Dev wrote: "I just set the buzzer for 20 minutes or so and cut and paste what I write into my document. I just set it to start blinking when I pause too long. It's most useful when I feel like I'm slogging through a scene or if I'm tired and my mind is wandering. So far (knock on wood) I haven't lost anything but since I never set it for more than 20 minutes it wouldn't be a disaster if I did. "The copying and pasting alone would drive me nuts.
No, I'll just stick with yWriter5.
I'm Beta reading for another author now, and a little unsure about how much to keep my voice out of her work. If you guys pass a work out for a Beta read, do you want specific suggestions (like, "this sounds awkward; how about saying something like....") Or would you prefer not to have the suggestion tacked on. I'm trying to be clear but I've never done this for someone else and I'm worried she's too polite to tell me to keep my grubby paws off her vocabulary choices.I'm maybe having too much fun with this. I just did my second edit on Breaking Cover, and wrote two 10,000 word shorts this week, so I need a break from my own stuff. But maybe I should stick to general comments? What is a Beta really supposed to do?
Josh wrote: "Another question, have you ever felt you can't stand looking at your work when you almost finished it? I hate all my work while I'm in the rough draft stage. I may or may not enjoy the writing ..."
Incidentally, I'm so glad to hear this. I hated Life Lessons when it hit formatting (too late for more editing; I almost pulled it out because every error was just grating) and I haven't looked at it since, other than name look-ups as I edit the sequel. Nice to know an author like Josh feels the same way. :)
Nicole wrote: "You know, I was just thinking, having now responded to a bunch of comments about beta reading on that blog, the longer I participate in fiction-generating and critique environments the more I objec..."I like to know what's working/isn't working.
Kaje wrote: "I'm Beta reading for another author now, and a little unsure about how much to keep my voice out of her work. If you guys pass a work out for a Beta read, do you want specific suggestions (like, "..."I want suggestions. My suggestions for you are to first ask her if she wants suggestions, and second to phrase it so that it doesn't sound as if you have a "better" idea.
Do you think it would help you both if she read Nicole's article and then discussed which points she agrees with or doesn't?
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Q&A with Josh Lanyon
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I do know that with both my short stories, I posted the first couple of scenes to see what people had to say. And with both stories, the crits for those first scenes helped me in writing the rest of the stories.
Of course, the minute I read something that means I need to change my 'carefully constructed' scenes, I kick and scream ... for about two seconds ... before it sinks in that maybe they're right. Maybe I'm missing something, maybe what I wrote didn't work.
And then I read it again and implement most of the suggestions. Unless I feel the change doesn't add, or changes my style, or at least, my idea of what my style is. But that's all right too. I know they don't expect me to implement all their suggestions.