Q&A with Josh Lanyon discussion
note: This topic has been closed to new comments.
ARCHIVE (General Topics)
>
Writing Questions for Josh
Nicole wrote: "Is that something you would recommend? Would it help or affect my chances with publishers in the long run?This is Nicole Kimberling, editor of Blind Eye Books. I can only speak for myself, but I ..."
Nicole, thank you, that was really helpful (just ignore what I said before, people).
But even though I found what you said interesting and helpful, this is the line that sticks with me:
"no one buys what they've already had for free." LOL
Anne wrote: Caution: I'm not Josh. But..., have you thought about offering the story free somewhere? Not a site like CRVboy, because they sort of frown on using their site as a promotional tool, but do you have a website? Or you can even post it on Goodreads under your profile and then spread the word that it's there.Thanks for the input, Anne. I think I'm just going to write something not related to my series if I decide to post it n my blog.
Nicole wrote: So my advice is: HOLD OFF.I know you probably want to get something out there, but don't give away something that could be of value to you later.
Thank you so much for the advice, Nicole. I can totally see it now from the publisher's perspective.
Mod
No problem. I have actually run into this very roadblock on several occasions now--where I can't buy something because it's already been posted in part or whole online. It's very frustrating for me and demoralizing for the author whose MS I have to reject. So I'm very happy to have headed you off at the pass, so to speak.
Nicole wrote:It's very frustrating for me and demoralizing for the author whose MS I have to reject. So I'm very happy to have headed you off at the pass, so to speak. So a MS would be rejected because the characters were already out there, even if the story is different? This so interesting. And intriguing. See, I know this fan fiction writing team that had a story so good, they managed to see it. The thing was out, for free n their site for a year before they changed the name of the characters and removed the story from the site because it was now under contract. Wouldn't the same terms or guidelines apply? Why buy something that was free for so long?
Mod
So a MS would be rejected because the characters were already out there, even if the story is different? This so interesting. And intriguing. See, I know this fan fiction writing team that had a story so good, they managed to see it. The thing was out, for free n their site for a year before they changed the name of the characters and removed the story from the site because it was now under contract. Wouldn't the same terms or guidelines apply? Why buy something that was free for so long?
I'm not saying no one in the whole world would buy a story that had been available online for free. I'm saying that I personally would not buy it. In fact, I am expressly forbidden by the publisher to buy anything that has already been made available online.
This is only our policy at Blind Eye Books, though.
We like to build a lot of momentum for our titles. And its hard to build momentum or excitement for a completely known story. Do you understand what I mean by that?
Nicole wrote:We like to build a lot of momentum for our titles. And its hard to build momentum or excitement for a completely known story. Do you understand what I mean by that? I actually believe it is good policy. Just find it interesting how much it varies from one situation to the next.
Thanks so much for the advice again. You've been wonderful help!
Mod
I once found an interesting book online somewhere for sale, that the author had originally posted on her website for free. The stupid thing was, she said it was still on her website for free. So, I could pay for the extra long novel, or go download it for free. I hate to say what I did, but she kind of did it to herself, I'm afraid. And, nearly a year later, I still haven't read it yet anyway. When I saw what she'd done, I didn't understand that. Sure, new readers who'd never read it might have paid money for it, but when the author states that it is available for nothing, well... that just doesn't make sense.
I don't remember the author or the title. I'll have to look it up later. She's probably, hopefully, taken it off her site by now, but it's already too late I think.
My guess is that she didn't really care if she'd get money or not. I could imagine myself buying a free book if I was a friend with the author or wanted to encourage her. It's more like donating though. You can only hope someone would care.
Mod
I have heard this many, many times. Free fiction is the last to be read, or never read at all because it has no perceived value therefore no expiration date or timeline. And ultimately, what an author wants most is for someone to actually read and enjoy her story.
Well, they also enjoy royalties. Who doesn't? But at the start of one's career, the pleasure of having someone actually read and enjoy one's work is the main goal.
Mod
Suhi, yeah, if I'd known her, I would have definitely bought it so she could get paid for it.
Here it is: The God Eaters by Jesse Hajicek. And, since it's on Goodreads, I can count it towards my reading goal for the year. That's a good reason to read it right there. Otherwise I'd put it off again.
And it's 452 pages. Ouch. lol. But it looks like several people here have read it or put it on a to-read list. Maybe I'll read that after Three Wrong Turns.
http://chartreuse.studiowhippingboy.c... It's still up on her site for free. Not that I'm advocating you do that, but it's about $24.00 on Amazon otherwise, and that's getting expensive, especially for a paperback.
Jordan S. wrote: "Here it is: The God Eaters by Jesse Hajicek."Oh, I've heard that's good. I read reviews of it on some story-sharing site, and I remember thinking two things: a.) "If it's still for free on her site, why would I buy it?" and b.) "If it's free do I really want to read it?"
I have a definite prejudice for published fiction, and I used to think it was because I had elitist tendencies, and I spent some time trying to stamp them out by reading lots of free stuff from the internet.
I've come to the conclusion that, much of the time, there's a stylistic difference between free fic and published. For one thing, published works tend to have tighter stories and don't ramble over years of a person's life. Free fic sometimes seems more like a biography than a story to me.
Sometimes I'm in the mood for that, but usually not. Maybe it's just the stuff I've run into.
ETA: The exception to this is free shorts that are about characters in published novels. I tend to read and like those.
Mod
Yeah, I've heard good things about this book. This book isn't with a publisher, though. It's self-published on Lulu, which explains a lot--like why it's still available digitally on her site for free. Because that could seriously never happen if a book had been contracted. I think I remember reading someplace that J. Hajiek had decided to make a print copy available for people who loved the story and a wanted it transformed into a nice, paper book, so went with Lulu, which is why the POD print copy is so expensive. I hope you enjoy it!
Mod
The difference you perceive is the presence of various forms of editors, most likely. "Tighter stories" is definitely the stamp of editorial input.
Nicole wrote: "Anne wrote: "I've come to the conclusion that, much of the time, there's a stylistic difference between free fic and published. For one thing, published works tend to have tighter stories..."The ..."
I figured it was an editor thing. It really seems to need the input of another person acting as an editor to push a lot of writers out of their own fascination and see their work as a reader might.
Mod
I will say though, some books that go through an entire person's life can be good. I can think of two, which both happen to be historical romances, where that works. False Colors by Alex Beecroft, doesn't start at birth (thank God!) but spans many years while the characters avoid and try to determine what they want and need in love and life. The other is by Ruth Sims, The Phoenix, which pretty much does start at birth and spans even more years. But it worked for them.
I agree, most stories that try that fail, and they do seem to be self-published. It's such an odd little quirk. I guess some writers feel they need to cover everything when they write. And by everything, I mean EVERYTHING. lol.
Jordan S. wrote: "You got that right Anne, and Nicole. Having my current novel read by two different crit groups is... interesting. This one particular scene makes perfect sense to me, but not to one of my readers, ..."You know, I've actually started to see the 'biographical' quirk as a style some writers are shooting for. For instance, Tim Mead on CRVboy.
Jordan, how many readers do you have? I guess I'm trying to get at: what's the statistical significance of one reader not understanding something if everyone else does?
As I think Nicole said earlier (sorry if I'm attributing it wrongly -- and paraphrasing wrongly), you and the reader may have irreconcilable differences. You can't connect with everyone, unfortunately.
Mod
As for how many readers I have... hmmm... at least 2-3 from one group, and I had 4 comments from the other group on Sunday, and I believe I'm awaiting at least 3-4 more from that group as well, so I've got a pretty good reading base, from people who read m/m constantly and those who've never touched an m/m book in their life.
It's interesting though, because while I thought I was done editing the beginning, I let the second group read it, and they found more things to fix, minor plot holes and line edits mostly, but they all commented on one problem that someone else had mentioned from the first group. I thought it was just one person who didn't get that dream sequence. But I guess not anymore!
Jordan S. wrote: "It's interesting though, because while I thought I was done editing the beginning, I let the second group read it, and they found more things to fix, minor plot holes and line edits mostly, but they all commented on one problem that someone else had mentioned from the first group. I thought it was just one person who didn't get that dream sequence. But I guess not anymore! "See, this is very interesting to me. I do not belong to a crit group and haven't had my story read by that many people, but a couple of times I've gotten the "I'd write it this or that way" line. I am open to ideas and suggestions and have tried to write my books from a readers perspective, so to speak, but where do we writers draw the line? Where does it stop being constructive reviewing and becomes somebody else's vision?
Mod
Dream sequences are profoundly difficult. They are like equations in that often they represent something concrete, like the area of a circle in a highly symbolic way, area = pi r (squared).
My only advice is to think of exactly what you're trying to convey (only one thing, usually) with the dream then reduce it to its most simple, symbolic form using as little dialogue and as much narrative summary as possible.
i.e.: He dreamed he was in his mother's house again, but somehow his old room no longer existed. Even the door had vanished. He woke with tears on his face and the sudden, strange and profound knowledge that he would never go home again.
Mod
At the same time, you want readers to be able to understand the direction you want to take it in, and if they don't understand that, then there's a problem. At least, if there are multiple readers who see the same problem. If it's only one, then it might just be them. Who knows.
Nicole, they are difficult, though this one seems to be mostly a transitional issue, and a problem of not understanding the location. Thankfully, those should be easy to fix! btw, I love your example!
Mod
In my experience, it's not actually that easy to lose my own vision, provided that I actually have one. If I truly know what I'm trying to say with a piece--what essential truth of life I am attempting to demonstrate in story form--I always know immediately if suggestions would improve a piece or not. In this way, losing ownership of my own piece isn't ever really an issue for me.
There is danger, though in listening to criticism too early in a project. Especially if you're an intuitive pantser and you don't really know what you're trying to say until you've written it out completely once. Then mid-project critique can just be confusing and should be avoided IMHO.
Mod
If it's transition and location, just try writing "He dreamed that he was..." at the beginning. Seriously. It's okay to spell stuff like that out if you're not trying to fake the reader into thinking the dream sequence is real. (Which, honestly, almost never works in text. In film the "its a dream" fake out can be great but in text it just sort of annoys people.)
Mod
Hey, no problem. It would have been easier for me to learn it all if discussion boards had been around 20 years ago.
Okay, they were around, but not easy to access or lurk on like nowadays.
Nicole,I am 100% positive of where I want to take my story and so far my readers like the content. Whenever I've gotten the "I'd say it this way", my answer has always been "Well, you would, but Trevor/Alex/Tommy wouldn't". Because that's it; they have a voice that might not be grammatically correct at times, but for that particular line, it needs to be said that way. And yes, I've gotten the you-are-kinda-crazy look whenever I said that's not how my characters would talk or behave. LOL Guess only writers and authors totally understand how characters take over
@ L.C.Thanks for the terrific advice: listen to the editors. Got it. hehe
Nicole wrote: "Taylor V. wrote: "Where does it stop being constructive reviewing and becomes somebody else's vision?"In my experience, it's not actually that easy to lose my own vision, provided that I actually..."
I totally agree with your approach; writing the whole thing out first. I just get confused if I do it any other way. I'm envious of how sure you seem to be about being true to your vision.
What's an intuitive pantser? I love the imagery.
Mod
Thanks for the terrific advice: listen to the editors. Got it. hehe"
I think I'd expand that a little to read, "listen to the editors whose view of your story is consistent with your own and politely disregard the rest...unless these editors are paying you cash money for your story. Then listen even if you don't want to and try to cut a deal that you're both happy with."
:)
My limited experience so far has led me to believe that when someone begins a critique with something along the lines of "If I were writing this, I would...," I should be very wary.
Do you guys -- all y'all, not just Josh -- take breaks from writing? Like days at a time when things just aren't working?I do it when I have to, but I have very mixed feelings about it. Guilt and fear of not ever being able to come back to the story are the worst.
Mod
What's an intuitive pantser?
Ah, that's sweet of you to say. I wouldn't describe it as being true to my vision, though. Cause I'm not nearly that poetic or much concerned with artistic expression. I'd more say that I know what I want to tell people when I sit down to write a story. Sometimes that could be boiled down to, "I live in a weird town--Observe." Other times it could be "changing your career mid-life is hard, but with strength and courage you will survive and even be happy." It could be simple or lofty, but since I know what I am trying to say, it's easy to evaluate both the MS and criticism I receive.
A "pantser" is a word used to describe writers who do not outline, as in "I'm flying by the seat of my pants on this one." Pantsing is an incredibly difficult way to write, but also extremely common.
Mod
I've stopped writing for months at a time. :)
I haven't written a word in over two weeks.
@NicoleI could never be a "pantser". I need to plot and outline.
Nicole wrote: "Anne wrote: I'm envious of how sure you seem to be about being true to your vision.What's an intuitive pantser?
Ah, that's sweet of you to say. I wouldn't describe it as being true to my vision,..."
Alrighty, then. I'm a reformed pantser. Hence, I finished something.
Yeah, vision is a lofty word, isn't it? I mostly go for a feel, and it's very intuitive, but I can't explain why it feels like Protag A needs to say this, rather than put it that away. This is why I don't have readers until I've finished a first draft.
Okay. I no longer feel bad for only writing 200 words today. Thank you!
Mod
But writing a novel during NaNoWriMo doesn't let me do that, so I have to plot it ahead of time, write it all out in November, then rewrite from scratch or edit heavily, or both. And that's what I'm doing right now, the rewriting and editing. I think, though, knowing where my story is going, I'm glad to have beta readers even though I haven't written past chapter 7 again, because they're helping my beginning to become strong and some things in the beginning affect what happens later on, so I can adjust things before I get there.
As for pausing my writing, yeah, I do it all the time when things aren't going well, or when I just don't have the time. Though I try not to. Of course, really good books sometimes keep my from the keyboard... one such recent book was Dark Tides. I couldn't put that down at all.
I just remembered that I actually bought something that was available on-line for free because I wanted it in print. It was a sci-fi m-m "Starfighter" comic
Mod
Suhi wrote: "Suhi wrote: "Jordan S. wrote: "That sounds interesting Suhi. I'll have to check it out on my lunch break when my work computer isn't filtering everything. Drat the filter!"
Just be careful - it's not worksafe :D
Just be careful - it's not worksafe :D
Mod
Taylor V. wrote: "See, this is very interesting to me. I do not belong to a crit group and haven't had my story read by that many people, but a couple of times I've gotten the "I'd write it this or that way" line. I am open to ideas and suggestions and have tried to write my books from a readers perspective, so to speak, but where do we writers draw the line? Where does it stop being constructive reviewing and becomes somebody else's vision? "As one of the critiquers, my opinion is this: take what you like and leave the rest. I am there to give my thoughts and reactions, not to be a cowriter or even an editor.
I do say things like "I would write it like this" because it seems like a good way to criticize gently. Otherwise it sounds like "you should write it like this."
Does anyone know of a good reference for paramilitary organizations? Specifically, how they function when they work with the US military.
Mod
I totally understand. That's what I used to say. The problem with it is that the author, who is already very defensive at this point because they are the person being criticized, usually just snaps, "We'll I'm not you!" and storms off in a huff, rendering whatever points (valid or invalid) you, the critic, may have made, moot. And that's demoralizing, because as a crit partner, you have presumably spent your time reading and thinking about the author's piece and would at least like your opinion to be considered, right?
A lot of times its not what you say, but how you say it that makes the difference.
The vocabulary of critique is sort of a mine field, but after many years, I've found a real nice lead-in phrase:
"I would suggest..."
As in,
"I would suggest that it might be easier for the reader to visualize the character if his physical characteristics were described in this scene."
Or,
"I would suggest expanding this argument scene to include the conclusion in real time."
Or,
"I would suggest considering whether or not the addition of a were-penguin is actually adding any necessary dimension to this scene."
"I would suggest...": a phrase that works. :)
Here's another lead-in, "I'm curious..." As in,
"I'm curious how Evander got to Detroit, since the last time I saw him he was in Idaho."
Nicole wrote: ""I would suggest considering whether or not the addition of a were-penguin is actually adding any necessary dimension to this scene."LOL. Were-penguins. I want one....
Anne wrote: "Nicole wrote: ""I would suggest considering whether or not the addition of a were-penguin is actually adding any necessary dimension to this scene."LOL. Were-penguins. I want one...."
Any author wants to write penguin shifters? Pwetty pwease? :D
Mod
It sets up a whole different and, I think, more positive dynamic.
Terms like...you could try, you might try, what about this, had you thought of this...feel more neutral I think.
Josh wrote: "I know the best copyeditors automatically use the word "suggest" with any significant change (meaning anything that isn't a comma) ;-) It sets up a whole different and, I think, more positive ..."
One of my betas often starts with "This could just be a personal pet peeve, but...". I know he's just trying to keep me from getting defensive, but I love it when he starts a criticism that way.
This topic has been frozen by the moderator. No new comments can be posted.
Q&A with Josh Lanyon
Books mentioned in this topic
Alphabears: An ABC Book (other topics)Rag and Bone (other topics)
As Meat Loves Salt (other topics)
The Well of Loneliness (other topics)
The Selfish Gene (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Julie Smith (other topics)Bernard Cornwell (other topics)
Robin McKinley (other topics)
Tove Jansson (other topics)
Astrid Lindgren (other topics)
More...
Just to be clear here: yeah, you can post material related to a contracted MS such as related stories, art--even deleted scenes sometimes, but most publishers will only let you post a certain percentage of an actual contracted MS that they have purchased the rights to for free on your website. Sometimes its 10% of the total word count, sometimes more or less and only for the purpose of promotional excerpts. The percentage is usually written someplace in the contract.
Oh, and I'm doing this edit because I just realized that I hadn't mentioned "right of first refusal" clauses. This means that if you sell a publisher a story about "Davie & Boone" if you have another story featuring "Davie & Boone" or "Davie" or "Boone" the publisher has the right to exercise this power. So in the case of posting a prequel to a published story on your site, if there is a right of first refusal clause in the contract, I'd definitely run it by your editor first to give them a chance to refuse to acquire it before you go and annoy them by doing something else with it.
This is, of course, just one more reason to wait until a book is published before posting fiction featuring the same characters.