Banned Books Club discussion
Don Quixote
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I am so sorry I have not started! I will this weekend and catch up.
Hi, I'm new to the group. A banned book group is a spectacular idea, and Don Quixote is in my to-read list anyway. Will catch up shortly after I finish Catch-22. :-)I'm mostly dropping a line in here to say that I moved Don Quixote from the "Read" shelf to the "Currently Reading" shelf, so it shows up more prominently on the group page, as I was having trouble finding which one everyone was reading. Hope that's ok!
Mod
Absolutely fine, and thanks for updating the list from currently reading.
Satia - you are absolutely correct about the Inquisition not being local to Spain. Jews in particular were kicked out of England at the end of the 13th century, out of France in 1397, and of course, the inquisition kicked in in Spain in 1492, targeting all non-christians and suspect converts. I think you are mistaken (though I'd have to do more research) about the Church not being as strong in Spain - the Church, particularly the Catholic church had one of it's most steadfast supports from the Spanish Emperor thoughout the 16th and 17th centuries as England at that time had broken off to start the Church of England (Henry the VIII in the first have of the 1500s), and Spain, though England's ally, was also the Church's ally in catholicism and was a supporter of Henry's excommunication.
(As a side note, Fernando and Isabella regained control of Granada in 1492, completing the Catholic reconquest, which was a mere 40 years before the split in the English church. I studied abroad there and highly recommend visiting any chance you get. Not only is it one of the most wonderful, fascinating cities in the world, but there is still a huge Arab population, mostly of Syrians and Moroccans, which is an interesting historical hangover. There are almost no Jews either.)
Anyway, getting back to the book, I think you are correct that it was banned due to a general lack of respect for authority and established institutions. However, I think considering the tenor of the time, those institutions were soaked in religious authority which influenced most political decisions/decrees of the time. I am concurrently reading a book called "Jewish Pirates of the Carribean" which covers the golden age of piracy - incidentally about the same time that Don Quixote was published - and covers a lot of the politics of the time which shaped society and was heavily governed by religious influences. (Who knew Jewish Pirates were a big enough community to write about?!)
And again - back to Don Quixote, in total agreement that the "danger" from the book here seems to be from the threat of individualism.
Sorry for the scatterdness of this post - lots of different trains of thought bouncing around.
Hello Will and Satia,I think both of you were correct in why Don Quixote was banned. As far as European history goes, I am certainly not as well-versed as both of you. But it is clear that the book was banned for its challenge on authority or establishment, and religion certainly is one body of authority.
In chapter VI, an Inquisition of Don Quixote's books was held by the priest and the barber. But it was mainly the priest who had the ultimate authority to condemn or save a book, and the reasoning of his choices were random and hilarious! (Has anyone been laughing out loud reading this book as I have?)
Also in chapter XIII Don Quixote was questioned by a traveler of the act of entrusting his soul to his mistress instead of God: "...a practice which seems to me to smack somewhat of paganism."
Weren't most wars back then fought in the name of Catholicism? And weren't most armies organized in the name of Catholicism?
I also do agree with Will's comment about "the main theme being the power and folly of absolute conviction, as well as the influence of faith, and perhaps the danger of faith in the absurd." If Don Quixote was a symbol of individualism fighting against authority, I find his character written not in the usual hero fashion. Actually, his character being 2 dimensional and quite mad, I am still having problem seeing it as "retaliation against authority". Or am I not reading him correctly?
Satia,That is excellent! Yes! "Who decides who/what is and is not sane?" After I sent that message yesterday, it dawned on me that as a reader, I am reading through the eyes of the society/authority, and Don Quixote's actions ARE rightfully ludicrous and delusional!
Ahh, that shows you how my mind has been trained to want my heroes a certain way with certain "heroic" attributes! How ironic for me. I have become the windmill. ;)
Thank you for shedding the light on it. I am curious to check out "The King of Hearts" as well, sounds like a good film!
Yes, I agree with you about the reasons for wars through out history. I was only referring to European history—I grew up in Asia, English is actually my third language, which sadly hindered my interest in European history. The only book I have read so far on it is Dungeon, Fire and Sword: The Knights Templar in the Crusades, which I must say I enjoyed tremendously. But perhaps that's where my prejudice of European wars come from.
I am so glad you expressed your feeling about the characters Don Quixote and his sidekick. :) 100 pages in, I found myself skipping his "speeches of valiant knights" which happens almost every 3 pages. At some point, I decided the character is there only to string together the many tales through out the book. But I have just arrived at the part when Sancho called him "The Knight of Sad Countenance", I will withdraw my decision as Don Quixote somehow has risen out of the 2-dimensional plane and slowly solidifying into a more interesting character.
What do you think of the speech by Marcela the shepherdess at Chrysostom's funeral?
Yes, "The Knight of Rueful Countenance" does suggest the existence of self-awareness more than "The Knight of Sad Countenance". I personally feel "The Knight of Sad Countenance" fits better on Don Quixote due to his sad appearance especially after losing many teeth; although recent reading has suggest Don Quixote is totally aware of his own insanity, which would make "Rueful Countenance" more appropriate.'Really, Sancho,' said Don Quixote, 'as far as I can see, you are no saner than I am.'
'I'm not so mad as you,' replied Sancho, 'but I've a worse temper...'
Also in the conversation he had with Sancho on the nature of perception (in regard to the Mambrino's helmet/barber's basin).
And yes, the chapter with Sancho's unfortunate accident next to the mounted Don Quixote was just too much. I could not believe it was actually happening as I read on. Can this be chalk up to 'boys will be boys'? That good or bad, certain mentalities are eternal?!
Then there is the somersault with his pants down. Which is not distasteful but simply strange.
You must've gotten to the part when Sancho finally realized lady Dulcinea del Toboso is his neighbor's daughter (and his description of her was just too funny). :) For the lines you quoted come after that part.
A friend of mine just mentioned "that nobody really finishes Don Quixote. One's supposed to read the first 31 chapters and then just read the remaining descriptive chapter titles, otherwise, the joke's on you." That made me feel much relieved, as I do not see myself finishing this book even though I do keep going back for the funny anecdotes.
Good points on Marcela. I think I was temporary impressed by her sensible and clear speech after few pages of unfair judgement by the other shepherds.
Hm. For that part you quoted, my translation says this:'It is,' said Cardenio. 'It is so strange and rare that I do not know whether anyone trying to invent such a character in fiction would have the genius to succeed.'
My translation is properly punctuated all through it seems. It's published by Penguin Classic (1950), translated by J.M. Cohen. I have noticed from our 2 comparisons so far that my copy has a more conversational tone while yours has more of a proper English tone. So I did a quick research and found out Smollett was an 18th century poet (here my ignorance of western literature shows, sigh). But I could not find any information on his usage of punctuation marks. He is mentioned in the below text... (The illustrations are also very nice, starting page 800.)
http://books.google.com/books?id=zE2O...
Considering my complicated feelings toward the main character Don Quixote, I find myself unable to completely tear myself away from the book even though I'd really like to stop reading. Perhaps I will finish it one day-I do wonder about how this is going to end. But I agree with Satia, perhaps we should select our next book, we can keep Don Quixote as an ongoing discussion.
Serena
Mod
I am with you, Satia, that overall, it's sort of a slog, but the book is hilarious. I'm thinking it's their contemporary equivalent of a Judd Apatow movie - vulgar, ridiculous, but very very funny commmentary.
If we're going to switch up for July - Serena - would you like to choose?
Interesting... From Satia and Jamie's original list, I'd pick "As I lay Dying". I am very interested in Canterbury Tales also but we just went through a thick book of olden time literature (well, not all the way through), perhaps something a bit lighter this time.We can also read King's "Carrie", as I see the club description also involves Stephen King. I recently listened to Shooter Jenning's interview on Adam Carolla and what he said about King's inspiration to write "Carrie" was great! Certainly got me interested.
What do you all think?
I am sad to say that even though i was ready for the new book and bought it the day we decided.....i have not read past page 3! :-0i just couldn't take it on while finishing this house. i am going to get the audio and listen to it. i think that will help me.
that said i am totally ready to devote myself to the new book since i will be done painting and finishing touches by tuesday!!
sorry for not participating more this month. :)
Hi I just joined this book club! I remember when I read Don Quixote. I honestly remember laughing out loud at the situations he found himself in. I couldn't believe my eyes reading that this book was banned! I guess thinking about it I could see why. There was a lot of obvious questioning of authority in the novel, and in my opinion was also flouting the concept of chivalry at the time.
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I think, so far removed from the era in which this was written, I haven't gotten into any parts that would obviously raise the hackles of the religious establishment or nobility. The main theme seems to be the power and folly of absolute conviction, as well as the influence of faith, and perhaps the danger of faith in the absurd.
Going for the stretch, is the satire not only of the noble establishment and a challenge to the perceived honor of knighthood, but a larger, more subtle stab at unreasoning faith in one's own reality regardless of evidence to the contrary - religion overall?